Who else gets stoked downwinding?
For me the best thing about foiling

The Slingshot Infinity 65 is an epic wing - easily controllable at nearly 24 knots speed downwind, flying down 1.5 to 2m windswells that jack up when the wind exceeds 20 knots. Superfun carves all the way

SSW 22 knots - 5km downwind run
Slingshot Freestyle 87, Simmer Tricera 4.5m

Very impressive speed JJ

according to some in the forum the infinity wings are meant to be slow and boring!! there you are ripping up big chunks of swell at 23+ knots... think that's a mic drop

Impressive performance JJ.

In my other thread www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/-Boat-vs-Wind--speed-when-foiiing?page=1
I'm trying to discuss when "good (speed) stuff" happen. Assuming that wind consistency is different from place to place, the relationship between wind strenght and vmax helps to better evaluate the different scores.

p.s. imo this thread should be discussed ALSO for "fin stuff".....

Azymuth,

Are you in the harness when you do this? I've been able to emulate your downwind style - feet in straps and sheeting in downwind. But at the moment I feel like I need to be out of the harness to sheet out enough in gusts and to get my weight far enough forwards.

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CoreAS said..
Very impressive speed JJ

according to some in the forum the infinity wings are meant to be slow and boring!! there you are ripping up big chunks of swell at 23+ knots... think that's a mic drop

Funny, I took something completely different from it: how much fun smaller (841cm2), high aspect foils can be.

Back to the topic - thanks for sharing Azymuth. Totally stoked by your style. Every post exudes your enthusiasm.

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Paducah said..

CoreAS said..
Very impressive speed JJ

according to some in the forum the infinity wings are meant to be slow and boring!! there you are ripping up big chunks of swell at 23+ knots... think that's a mic drop

Funny, I took something completely different from it: how much fun smaller (841cm2), high aspect foils can be.

Back to the topic - thanks for sharing Azymuth. Totally stoked by your style. Every post exudes your enthusiasm.

Hence the reason I said "infinity wings"!

As we all know JJ and the WA crew will carve it up no matter which "infinity" wing they are riding the vids are the proof.

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CoreAS said..

Paducah said..

CoreAS said..
Very impressive speed JJ

according to some in the forum the infinity wings are meant to be slow and boring!! there you are ripping up big chunks of swell at 23+ knots... think that's a mic drop

Funny, I took something completely different from it: how much fun smaller (841cm2), high aspect foils can be.

Back to the topic - thanks for sharing Azymuth. Totally stoked by your style. Every post exudes your enthusiasm.

Hence the reason I said "infinity wings"!

As we all know JJ and the WA crew will carve it up no matter which "infinity" wing they are riding the vids are the proof.

Yet, he firmly prefers the much smaller 65 to even the 76 in windier conditions based on his prior posts and high praise for the 65. The discussion of big and draggy is when wings literally almost three times the area of the 65 are mentioned. Most foilers won't have a chance of hitting 23-24 knots on the 99. I'm not saying the 99 doesn't have a time and place but if one likes to foil in the 20s, whether it's SS or another brand, a smaller, high aspect wing is the preferred vehicle. If he wants to slow surf and carve those same swells, I imagine the 99 would be a ton of fun.

Hence the specific mention of smaller, high aspect wings.

Edit: btw, I know of no instance anyone has ever said the 65 is slow. I'm open to evidence suggesting otherwise.

I have the 76 and the 65.

76 is good for big sails (4.8/5.3) and slower small swells. 65 is better for windier conditions and carving down bigger swells. The 65 handles the acceleration down the face much better lift-wise.

I used the 65 in cross-off chest high waves with a 3.7 sail a few weeks ago and it was brilliant. However if I want to ride downwind on windswell (X-on) with zero sail power the 76's lower stall speed helps.

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Paducah said..Edit: btw, I know of no instance anyone has ever said the 65 is slow. I'm open to evidence suggesting otherwise.

I think Dean's referring to the bagging that the Infinity 76 wing occasionally unjustly suffers, in my view from dudes who probably haven't spent enough time on it to unlock the higher performance possible when you have the confidence to "push it" and really use the lift.
Jesper will often chose to use the 76 even when it's blowing 35 knots (he's about 85 kgs)

I reckon both the 76 and the 65 excel at being controllable and superfun even when dealing with multiple forces and lifts, for example;
downwinding - flying across a 2m swell at 20 knots, powercarving a 90 degree tight turn (slingshotting ) and maxing-out speed down the swell by picking up the swell energy/resultant acceleration and lift.
Have I mentioned before how much fun this is?

There's not as much difference between the 76 and 65 as you might expect given that the 65 is close to half the area.
The 65 has perhaps 10-15% less lift and 10-15% faster.

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azymuth said..

Paducah said..Edit: btw, I know of no instance anyone has ever said the 65 is slow. I'm open to evidence suggesting otherwise.

I think Dean's referring to the bagging that the Infinity 76 wing occasionally unjustly suffers, in my view from dudes who probably haven't spent enough time on it to unlock the higher performance possible when you have the confidence to "push it" and really use the lift.
Jesper will often chose to use the 76 even when it's blowing 35 knots (he's about 85 kgs)

I reckon both the 76 and the 65 excel at being controllable and superfun even when dealing with multiple forces and lifts, for example;
downwinding - flying across a 2m swell at 20 knots, powercarving a 90 degree tight turn (slingshotting ) and maxing-out speed down the swell by picking up the swell energy/resultant acceleration and lift.
Have I mentioned before how much fun this is?

There's not as much difference between the 76 and 65 as you might expect given that the 65 is close to half the area.
The 65 has perhaps 10-15% less lift and 10-15% faster.

Great comparison between the i76 and i65 JJ.

How would the time code 68 fit in there?obviously it is a totally different design not as small as the i65-(840cm2) vs 1100cm2 and the TC68 is a much thinker profile. Seems like you've really liked higher aspect i65 wing a lot this year

I really like the locked in feel when carving hard with the TC68 and it can turn quicker then the i76. I've yet to really get a feel for it in big conditions 25kts+ and 1.5m+ swell. In 25kts smaller 1m waves it has been sweet on the TC68. Needs more testing time and turning to get dialled in for the big days. Never tryed the i65 before but will hopefully get to test each wing back to back sometime to see how each one performs.
So far the i76 is my favorite wing for carvabilty, speed and playfulness; for example being able to go slow enough to do moves like triple duck gybes but fast enough to power down a wave with a hard bottom turn while feeling in total control. Setup with a 3.5 wave sail, wizard 105 in 15-20kts and 1m waves has been next level fun.

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Paducah said..
Edit: btw, I know of no instance anyone has ever said the 65 is slow. I'm open to evidence suggesting otherwise.

WoH said
" A small low aspect wing is just a low aspect wing for more wind, sure its a little faster"
Pretty sure WoH's opinion is that low aspect wings are slow

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2keen said..

Paducah said..
Edit: btw, I know of no instance anyone has ever said the 65 is slow. I'm open to evidence suggesting otherwise.

WoH said
" A small low aspect wing is just a low aspect wing for more wind, sure its a little faster"
Pretty sure WoH's opinion is that low aspect wings are slow

Did you really mean to use that quote? Because it's about an entirely different brand of foil and comparing two low aspect designs in that brand.

WoH's comments were in response steview asking about the Starboard Supercruiser 1700 and 1200. He followed what you quoted with this (bold mine)
"Remember, a high aspect wing gives about 1,5-2x times as much power / lift as a similarly sized low aspect wing. In the end, a 1100cm2 high aspect will give the same, if not more early lift than your supercruiser, with more speed and more glide through lulls."
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Higher-aspect-foil-for-foil-x-145-2#8

This matches Azymuth's experience with his comparing the 65 which is almost half the size of the 76 but he feels like it only gives up 10-15% of the lift but gains the same in speed (and since drag increases exponentially with speed, means the 65 is roughly 30% more slippery)

WoH on similar sized gear is at another level in speed (29 kts) from most people in this conversation
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Top-speed-for-Infinity-65-and-Warp-Speed?page=1
If he feels lower aspect foils are slower, from where he sits, he can say that in my book.

Interestingly, in that thread which is specifically about the I65, I don't see where WoH made any negative comments about the 65. If he thought it was a slow wing, that would have been a good time to mention it. Instead, he made the constructive comment that a SS event would be a good opportunity for SS riders to compare their experiences on their specific foils. And, in that same thread, other SS riders clearly show what the speeds of the various wings are. Bigger, lower aspect wings are slower.

Azymuth, I appreciate your input. Any discussions of wings is not intended to diminish your stoke, ride or enjoyment. To quote you from the i65 discussion I linked: "For me the real fun is flying at 20+ knots while carving a 90 degree turn on a 2m windswell downwind." Keep it up on whatever gear works for you, sir.

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azymuth said..

Paducah said..Edit: btw, I know of no instance anyone has ever said the 65 is slow. I'm open to evidence suggesting otherwise.

I think Dean's referring to the bagging that the Infinity 76 wing occasionally unjustly suffers, in my view from dudes who probably haven't spent enough time on it to unlock the higher performance possible when you have the confidence to "push it" and really use the lift.
Jesper will often chose to use the 76 even when it's blowing 35 knots (he's about 85 kgs)

I reckon both the 76 and the 65 excel at being controllable and superfun even when dealing with multiple forces and lifts, for example;
downwinding - flying across a 2m swell at 20 knots, powercarving a 90 degree tight turn (slingshotting ) and maxing-out speed down the swell by picking up the swell energy/resultant acceleration and lift.
Have I mentioned before how much fun this is?

There's not as much difference between the 76 and 65 as you might expect given that the 65 is close to half the area.
The 65 has perhaps 10-15% less lift and 10-15% faster.

That's exactly what I was referring to mate, perfectly said.
And by the way, as you know I have always been leaning towards the i84 as my go to wing.

Last night I was on a 4.5 with the TC 68 making a right hash' of the 360's as the wind was a bit wonky, so I went in and grabbed the i76 (which I haven't used for a good 6 months) and only pulled off a 360. It was ugly and not video worthy yet but combined with the W130 gives you the perfect pressure on the front foot to really carve it hard.
The i76 is back

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BritWindfoiler said..I used the 65 in cross-off chest high waves with a 3.7 sail a few weeks ago and it was brilliant. However if I want to ride downwind on windswell (X-on) with zero sail power the 76's lower stall speed helps.

Nice going - where are you foiling, any video to share?

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CAN17 said..How would the time code 68 fit in there?obviously it is a totally different design not as small as the i65-(840cm2) vs 1100cm2 and the TC68 is a much thinker profile. Seems like you've really liked higher aspect i65 wing a lot this year

The Time Code is more "secure" than the 76 when its super windy or in big chop and swell - it has less lift and a little slower so it can be pushed a little harder. As I said earlier the 76 can work super well in tough conditions but I think it takes a fair investment of time to be confident of controlling the lift at speed.

I think speeds possible in the ocean (without going crazy) with regular wave sails go like this;
68 - 20 knots
76 - 21.5 knots
65 - 24 knots - I reckon you could crank 26+ knots on flat water with a wide board and cam race sail.
But why bother - its built to turn. I haven't seen any vids of a foil carving harder or faster.

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Paducah said..Azymuth, I appreciate your input. Any discussions of wings is not intended to diminish your stoke, ride or enjoyment. To quote you from the i65 discussion I linked: "For me the real fun is flying at 20+ knots while carving a 90 degree turn on a 2m windswell downwind." Keep it up on whatever gear works for you, sir.

Thanks for the comments - fear not, you won't diminish my stoke

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CoreAS said..The i76 is back

Nice one Dean - I'm betting we'll be seeing a 360 vid from you soon. Simon prefers the 76 over the 65 for 360s.

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simonp123 said..
Azymuth,Are you in the harness when you do this? I've been able to emulate your downwind style - feet in straps and sheeting in downwind. But at the moment I feel like I need to be out of the harness to sheet out enough in gusts and to get my weight far enough forwards.

I sometimes use the harness downwind but as there's big variances in sail pressure and foil lift to deal with, it's easier to react quicker out the harness - as you've found out.
Maybe try not to sheet out in the gusts, keep the clew in and pull down on the boom to put pressure on the mast foot (in addition to getting your weight forward).

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CoreAS said..

Last night I was on a 4.5 with the TC 68 making a right hash' of the 360's as the wind was a bit wonky, so I went in and grabbed the i76 (which I haven't used for a good 6 months) and only pulled off a 360. It was ugly and not video worthy yet but combined with the W130 gives you the perfect pressure on the front foot to really carve it hard.
The i76 is back

Nice Dean, I know you were a big i84 and TC68 guy last year glad your getting the i76 out again!

As mentioned before, it's easy to design and make a wing that is only fast or make one that has a good stall speed or one that turns well (carves not banks turns). It's very difficult IMO to make a wing that does all 3 very well.

I have been pondering how different foiling downwinders might be between winDfoiling and winGfoiling. Only because I really enjoy downwinding on a winDfoil and have not tried winGfoiling. However I have seen so many videos of folks raving over the winGfoling downwinders.

From my perspective the foiling on swell thing is just awesome given it has turned "nothing" bumpy swells into smooth fun. And with the Wingers being pumped about downwinders it's good to see this discussion.

From what I have seen Wingers do their downwinders using shuttle vehicles. I am lazy and just hook in for the up wind portion. I mostly ride a Moses 101 w/ 683 and find it to be a great all round foil.

When playing in the swells (back to my slapper for bigger breaking waves) I have tried 3 techniques

1. Traditional down the line bottom and top turns - wind more 45% off the wave - bottom turns are toe side
2. "WindFoiling Carves" - usually more across the wind but have done them into and off the wind - bottom turns are heel side. I think being able to "pull" on the sail and transfer power to the foil through the mast base makes it more of a windfoiling thing.
3. Sail luffed - downwind - bottom turns are usually toe side but have done some heel side

I prefer 1 and 2 as I seem to get more "G's" in the turns but floating along on a swell (3) is a different kind of cool. However I would say 2 and even 3 where not really around for me before foiling.

From what I have seen I think the Winger Downwinders are closer to 3. With Wingers seeming comfortable doing them both left and right.

Thoughts?

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CAN17 said..

CoreAS said..

Last night I was on a 4.5 with the TC 68 making a right hash' of the 360's as the wind was a bit wonky, so I went in and grabbed the i76 (which I haven't used for a good 6 months) and only pulled off a 360. It was ugly and not video worthy yet but combined with the W130 gives you the perfect pressure on the front foot to really carve it hard.
The i76 is back

Nice Dean, I know you were a big i84 and TC68 guy last year glad your getting the i76 out again!

As mentioned before, it's easy to design and make a wing that is only fast or make one that has a good stall speed or one that turns well (carves not banks turns). It's very difficult IMO to make a wing that does all 3 very well.

I wasn't feeling the i76 with the wizard 125, I had the mast base and everything set up perfectly for the i99, i84 and TC 68 but the i76 was pitchy as heck and I know I could have dialed it in but didn't want the hassle etc.

Now with the W130 its so much quicker to move the foil forward or back without changing anything else so I can now utilize the i76 to full effect again. Its definitely going to be my go to for the 360's

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Hess said..1. Traditional down the line bottom and top turns - wind more 45% off the wave - bottom turns are toe side
2. "WindFoiling Carves" - usually more across the wind but have done them into and off the wind - bottom turns are heel side. I think being able to "pull" on the sail and transfer power to the foil through the mast base makes it more of a windfoiling thing.
3. Sail luffed - downwind - bottom turns are usually toe side but have done some heel side
I prefer 1 and 2 as I seem to get more "G's" in the turns but floating along on a swell (3) is a different kind of cool. However I would say 2 and even 3 where not really around for me before foiling.

Much prefer 1 and 2.
Gs in the turns (slingshots) are addictive.

I like 0.5 to 1m more sail area for downwinding than is optimum for gybing and upwinding.

Today SSW 25 knots and 2m windswells.
4.5m Tricera was perfect for downwind carving but overpowered upwind. The sail was flogging itself coming back but the power helps get good angles into the wind.
Gybing on a swell is simple even when dealing with excess sail pressure going into the turn - accelerating down the swell reduces the sail pressure so the sail flip is easy.

Light winds are superfun - but foiling goes turbo when it's blowing >25 knots and the windswells turn the ocean into a skatepark

Fresh water ocean downwinding on Sunday and got to try the i65. Wind anywhere from 20-40kts throughout the day with two short squalls of 55 and 60kts+. The wing is fast and gets going pritty easy. I love how you can sheet in and power down waves easily with noticeable less drag. A bit less side to side stable but has that locked in i76 roller coaster feel that grips hard in turns. You are going faster then other infinity wings so you can be more picky with the waves you choose to ride since it has great speed and maneuverability to go anywhere really quickly.

Hit 21.22 kts speed on my 3.5m wave sail and did 70km distance. Really impressed with how much wind it can handle compared to the TC68, it was fine in 30kts, I'm 150lbs. Some big smooth rollers near wards island.

Slingshot wizard 105, infinity 65, 3.5m aerotech charge. Winds SW(see red arrow)

This is one of my tracks that day. Note the circle where I got caught in a 55kt squall.


I was the only windfoiler that day- no idea why this spot has not taken off in strong winds. I get it that at a great wave spot like maui windsurfing will rule but most places have crappy waves and even crappier wind. This sport is no longer the slow version of windsurfing.

Nice report Connor, and foiling in that windspeed is some serious skills

Seems like the i65 is plenty quick, the TC 68 I was getting around 18 knots on Saturday and that was pushing it as hard as I could, jumping up to 21-22 knots is a huge difference.

Windy foiling is the mutts nutts, love reading how everyone is pushing it and charging hard...great stuff

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azymuth said..
Who else gets stoked downwinding?
For me the best thing about foiling

The Slingshot Infinity 65 is an epic wing - easily controllable at nearly 24 knots speed downwind, flying down 1.5 to 2m windswells that jack up when the wind exceeds 20 knots. Superfun carves all the way

SSW 22 knots - 5km downwind run
Slingshot Freestyle 87, Simmer Tricera 4.5m

Just out of curiosity -- where are you putting the foil's mast in its track? It looks like you have the sail's mast pretty much at the front of its track. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like in 20 to 25 knots (especially with a 4.5) you have a lot of lift with the i65 and have a setup that gives you some extra help (front downward pressure) to counter that lift.

CAN17 -- are you nuts? The local media (Toronto) sent a reporter down to the waterfront to get some footage of gnarly Lake Ontario. It sure looked wild to me -- no way I'd be out there. More power to you -- do you have some sort of self-rescue plan if you have an equipment failure?

Here's some food for thought:

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CAN17 said..I was the only windfoiler that day- no idea why this spot has not taken off in strong winds. I get it that at a great wave spot like maui windsurfing will rule but most places have crappy waves and even crappier wind. This sport is no longer the slow version of windsurfing.

Sounds like you had a fun day Connor
As you say above - foiling windswells and waves/lumps produced by strong winds at almost any spot gives a similar buzz to wavesailing but heaps more accessible, unless you live in Geraldton or Maui.

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azymuth said..

CAN17 said..I was the only windfoiler that day- no idea why this spot has not taken off in strong winds. I get it that at a great wave spot like maui windsurfing will rule but most places have crappy waves and even crappier wind. This sport is no longer the slow version of windsurfing.

Sounds like you had a fun day Connor
As you say above - foiling windswells and waves/lumps produced by strong winds at almost any spot gives a similar buzz to wavesailing but heaps more accessible, unless you live in Geraldton or Maui.

Exactly. The wider range of angles we can ride relative to the wind (versus on the fin) means that we can get the most out of whatever swell our spot produces. That and being able to stall the sail and ride the foil makes swell riding on the foil awesome. Also, being able to handle lulls better and how maneuverable our kit is even though we are on 100+L.

What did I forget?

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dejavu said..
Just out of curiosity -- where are you putting the foil's mast in its track? It looks like you have the sail's mast pretty much at the front of its track. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like in 20 to 25 knots (especially with a 4.5) you have a lot of lift with the i65 and have a setup that gives you some extra help (front downward pressure) to counter that lift.

Correct - right at the front of the sail mast-track on the F87, which is equivalent to the rear on the W105. Extending the distance between sail and foil masts increases stability.
If it's not too windy or the swell is small I move the mast base to about half-way in the F87 and max rear in the W105.

The Infinity 65 has amazing lift for a wing almost 50% less cm2 than the 76 - I can glide though lulls of 12 knots and get up on foil easily in 15 knots

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thedoor said..That and being able to stall the sail and ride the foil makes swell riding on the foil awesome. Also, being able to handle lulls better and how maneuverable our kit is even though we are on 100+L. What did I forget?

You forgot to say that not stalling the sail downwind is even more awesome - powered-up carving s-turns on the swells

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azymuth said..

thedoor said..That and being able to stall the sail and ride the foil makes swell riding on the foil awesome. Also, being able to handle lulls better and how maneuverable our kit is even though we are on 100+L. What did I forget?

You forgot to say that not stalling the sail downwind is even more awesome - powered-up carving s-turns on the swells

yep sail powered carving is pretty awesome

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dejavu said..

azymuth said..
Who else gets stoked downwinding?
For me the best thing about foiling

The Slingshot Infinity 65 is an epic wing - easily controllable at nearly 24 knots speed downwind, flying down 1.5 to 2m windswells that jack up when the wind exceeds 20 knots. Superfun carves all the way

SSW 22 knots - 5km downwind run
Slingshot Freestyle 87, Simmer Tricera 4.5m

Just out of curiosity -- where are you putting the foil's mast in its track? It looks like you have the sail's mast pretty much at the front of its track. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like in 20 to 25 knots (especially with a 4.5) you have a lot of lift with the i65 and have a setup that gives you some extra help (front downward pressure) to counter that lift.

CAN17 -- are you nuts? The local media (Toronto) sent a reporter down to the waterfront to get some footage of gnarly Lake Ontario. It sure looked wild to me -- no way I'd be out there. More power to you -- do you have some sort of self-rescue plan if you have an equipment failure?

Here's some food for thought:

Cheers all.
Was probably the safest spot on lake Ontario that day. Being surrounded by land in the harbour and having other people on the water including rescue boats helps.

Kiteboarding looks really dangerous in those conditions though as we found out

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CoreAS said..
Nice report Connor, and foiling in that windspeed is some serious skills

Seems like the i65 is plenty quick, the TC 68 I was getting around 18 knots on Saturday and that was pushing it as hard as I could, jumping up to 21-22 knots is a huge difference.

Windy foiling is the mutts nutts, love reading how everyone is pushing it and charging hard...great stuff

Dean, the TC is a great wing and still fast enough- I hit 19.57 Kts on it. Looks like you were tearing it up in some strong wind recently too. It seems to turn slower and have a much lower average speed but can still get good speed powered up. Plus it is built like a tank compared to the very thin fragile i65. I really like how the i65 is more front footed like the i76 my base is in the middle of the track in those conditions on the wizard 105L.

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azymuth said..

Paducah said..Edit: btw, I know of no instance anyone has ever said the 65 is slow. I'm open to evidence suggesting otherwise.

I think Dean's referring to the bagging that the Infinity 76 wing occasionally unjustly suffers, in my view from dudes who probably haven't spent enough time on it to unlock the higher performance possible when you have the confidence to "push it" and really use the lift.
Jesper will often chose to use the 76 even when it's blowing 35 knots (he's about 85 kgs)

I reckon both the 76 and the 65 excel at being controllable and superfun even when dealing with multiple forces and lifts, for example;
downwinding - flying across a 2m swell at 20 knots, powercarving a 90 degree tight turn (slingshotting ) and maxing-out speed down the swell by picking up the swell energy/resultant acceleration and lift.
Have I mentioned before how much fun this is?

There's not as much difference between the 76 and 65 as you might expect given that the 65 is close to half the area.
The 65 has perhaps 10-15% less lift and 10-15% faster.

Love the vid's U do.. want a virtual reality capture to get in your groove a bit more..
Have i76 what do you reckon your wing loading is on both the SS wings (grams / cm2)..
I have a post in the kite foil forum trying help spot my next foil size and keen to get on your style of waves... but am running way slow compared to you... (I am aware there are numerous factors which influence speed but this to me appears to be a big one)...
Cheers
AP

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CAN17:

Kiteboarding looks really dangerous in those conditions though as we found out

Yes, I heard an expert kite foiler died that day -- got hit with a huge gust -- very sad.

A helmet and impact vest is a good idea for all conditions.

Heaps of fun on the Wizard 125, i65 and 4.2. Really handled the strong gusts well and was a blast on the wind swell