Sorry, I know this is not a foiling thing, but I'm curious... For whatever reason, a disproportionate number of folks involved in other 'geeky' sports that I do, seem to also be drawn to Alpine (hardboot) snowboarding. I'm hypothesizing that there are at least a few others here who are similarly afflicted, just based on the Geek Factor. :-)

This is my winter baby. Sorry for being OT, just kinda curious...

Had Hot Spots and Plus's of different sizing, Burton Plates, but stopped when boards got sym and extremely narrow.
Still sometimes use a 163 asym, but with soft boots and bindings.

first time I have heard about alpine snowboarding, I am a regular soft boot snowboarder but those boots are plenty stiff enough for me, and lighter and more comfortable compared to ski boots and I guess now alpine boots too.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..
first time I have heard about alpine snowboarding, I am a regular soft boot snowboarder.

Come to the Dark Side, where every turn is the winter equivalent of a laydown jibe! :-)

And yeah, hardboots are not really any more comfortable that ski boots - soft boots win in that category!

But, oh, the carves...

Me too - headed north shortly in fact. Current whips are a Donek Proteus 180 and a Madd 158 (the reissue, not the original) running on Catek step-ins modified with Bomber heels to allow me to use Fintecs on Deeluxe 425 Pros.

I live in the Berkshires of Western Massachusetts, within fifteen minutes of a couple of local hills and within half a minute of a small lake, so I can, and sometimes do, sail and ride in the same day. Drop a line if you're headed this way, or up into Southern Vermont. Mt Snow and Stratton are each an easy under two hour drive away from me.

Select to expand quote

Awalkspoiled said..
Current whips are a Donek Proteus 180 and a Madd 158

You gotta be a serious He-Man to ride a 180 Proteus! :-)

That Donek above is their "MK" (for "Madd Killer") - supposed to be a modern-day reincarnation++ of the Madd 158. If we ever manage to meet up, we should swap boards for a few runs (the MK for the Madd - I want nothing to do w/ a 180 Proteus, LoL!)

I was pretty sure there'd be a few hardbooters come out of the woodwork here!

Select to expand quote

jims said..
Sorry, I know this is not a foiling thing, but I'm curious... For whatever reason, a disproportionate number of folks involved in other 'geeky' sports that I do, seem to also be drawn to Alpine (hardboot) snowboarding. I'm hypothesizing that there are at least a few others here who are similarly afflicted, just based on the Geek Factor. :-)

This is my winter baby. Sorry for being OT, just kinda curious...

Nah, but I do use some very stiff soft boots after smashing my ankle. The only option back when I started was Sorel boots. Not much ankle support. I do love a lay down carve on the snow board. Soo much fun on the endless mountain wave.

I still have a Burton PJ asymmetric from 1994, but have been riding soft boots since a few years after that. Can still appreciate the sight of a hard carver on a freshly groomed piste on the first runs of the day. I think the Australian snow turning to slush by midday put me back on soft boots.

Trending the opposite way. Transitioned from Alpine skiing to soft boot snowboarding in '05. Initially considered Alpine hard boot snowboarding. But after the first deep powder run. Sold the Alpine skis and boots. This season giving bi-deck snow skating a go. No bindings. Bit like powder surfing, but with a steel edged ski (the sub-deck) attached to a deck that resembles a skateboard deck by snowskate trucks. Expanded range over a powder surf board. Most brands have a line up of boards designed for a limited range of conditions. Powder, all mountain, terrain park. You can interchange subdecks for specific conditions. High end subs cost less than most high end snowboard boots. $500usd gets you the most expensive complete set up. Local area allows for slackcountry skiing when the lifts are not operating. Which are more days of the week than when they are. Powder runs!

The good thing about being retired is the opportunity to enjoy sunrise powder runs. The bad thing. I'm OLD. Skinning up to the summit will be not as fun. But still more fun than having to head into work and miss another powder day. Same O for windsurfing and now wind foiling.

You're not old.
I'll bet there are 20 guys on here 70+.

Select to expand quote

OldGuy3 said..
Trending the opposite way. Transitioned from Alpine skiing to soft boot snowboarding in '05. Initially considered Alpine hard boot snowboarding. But after the first deep powder run. Sold the Alpine skis and boots. This season giving bi-deck snow skating a go.

Yeah, if you get to ride in powder a fair bit, then an alpine snowboard setup would not be much fun - mine have always sucked bad in powder - just won't float (and on top of that, you can't really carve turns like the board and boots are designed to do, so you've got all the negatives of an alpine setup w/o any of the positives.) I live in the southeast US, so we pretty much never see powder - all surfaces are one form or another of ice, LoL, so an alpine setup is really about ideal here. (It just seems nobody else around these parts really understands that! :-)

I've seen those snow skate setups - they scare the bejeezus out of me (to see people ride them) - just such a short board underneath, and nothing keeping you planted on the board. My head (and back, and neck, and hips, and... :-) hurt just thinking about taking a bunch of falls on that contraption. It sounds like they do Ok in powder, though with such a small surface you're riding on, I can't see how they physically manage to do so. (Area-wise, my skinny alpine board has a LOT more surface area than probably the largest bi-deck bottom board.)

I hope you have a successful and fun season on your new setup!

In the mid '90's, hard boots and assym race boards were THE CHOICE for deep powder in the Mt. Bachelor and Hood areas. They get 600 in of snow each year.
Some soft boot riders, like the Avalance crew, were great powder riders on boards around 160cm and setback bindings, but they were the minority.
Most boarders were riding center stance 156 sizing.
Raceboard sizing mostly 162-180.
At the same time, Summit Snowboards was pushing longer twintips with both soft and hard bindings, board sizing 165-200 cms.
Around later 90's, Burton's Supermodel and most other companies started coming out with powder boards in the 162 to 181 sizing.
So.....floatation and setback bindings for powder, regardless of plate or soft.
Length helps, but width works great.

Select to expand quote

jims said..

OldGuy3 said..
Trending the opposite way. Transitioned from Alpine skiing to soft boot snowboarding in '05. Initially considered Alpine hard boot snowboarding. But after the first deep powder run. Sold the Alpine skis and boots. This season giving bi-deck snow skating a go.

Yeah, if you get to ride in powder a fair bit, then an alpine snowboard setup would not be much fun - mine have always sucked bad in powder - just won't float (and on top of that, you can't really carve turns like the board and boots are designed to do, so you've got all the negatives of an alpine setup w/o any of the positives.) I live in the southeast US, so we pretty much never see powder - all surfaces are one form or another of ice, LoL, so an alpine setup is really about ideal here. (It just seems nobody else around these parts really understands that! :-)

I've seen those snow skate setups - they scare the bejeezus out of me (to see people ride them) - just such a short board underneath, and nothing keeping you planted on the board. My head (and back, and neck, and hips, and... :-) hurt just thinking about taking a bunch of falls on that contraption. It sounds like they do Ok in powder, though with such a small surface you're riding on, I can't see how they physically manage to do so. (Area-wise, my skinny alpine board has a LOT more surface area than probably the largest bi-deck bottom board.)

I hope you have a successful and fun season on your new setup!

I've been told that it's gravity and skill that keeps you attached to the deck. Lacking any skill. I see a few days of going off as the norm. Bit like the first few days trying to wind foil. Will be riding the tow rope servicing the bunny hill with people who are young enough to be my grandchildren. Should bring a few smiles and laughs.

Actually, learning to snowboard in a flat bunny hill is the harder of 2 options.
Better to have more slope on a 2nd level beginner hill, so you catch less edges. Boarding in flats require some skills.

Yes .... I ride alpine in Australia and if I see one other hard boot setup on a given day it is lucky! I have Wild Duck Knifer 163 and TD 171 with a set of Trench Diggers. Was stoked to find some new Deeluxe boots this year after my old Raichles decided to self destruct!

The big Proteus is a big-boys' board, but for those of us north of 100kg it's a very balanced ride - part old-school pop, part new-school smooth, stay in the middle and it's fun to ride as long as you're moving at reasonable speed. For tighter trails or steeper slopes the Madd is more versatile but for open cruising I like the Proteus. I have a Bomber plate on it now but might take it off - doesn't add much smoothness and takes away some of the liveliness. My previous board was a custom Coiler 180 which was turnier but not as solid at high speed. I've never ridden the MK or Bruce's equivalent the Coiler Anggry but would love to. The below tracks are mine (heelside) on the Proteus at Okemo a couple of years ago.

Select to expand quote

Awalkspoiled said..

I'd demoed several boards from Sean back, many years ago. ICRC the exact board, but it was a longer, stiffer board, and it was AMAZING fun. However, I was riding it out west, with wide open trails. I sadly concluded that I'd be a serious danger to myself and others on it back here on the east coast, so opted for a much tighter SL board, which I also loved, but it wasn't quite the high-speed cruising machine that the bigger board was. (That was an awesome conversation w/ Sean - we were in his shop, and he had this big spreadsheet up, and we were talking about what I liked about each of the boards I'd tried, and he was finally like, "Ok, here's what you want [not one of the ones I'd tried] - this board that I've only ever made 2 others of, that were both for a Korean racer." I left CO, came back home, and he sent it to me several weeks later - and, of course, it was perfect! :-) I finally wore the SL board out, and the MK had just come along, and sounded like a good fit, and it's even more fun than the SL was! (It's a little stiffer than the SL was, but will still carve a vertebra-crushing turn, so is a good mix for me.)

Similar to your photo, it's seldom hard to pick out your last few paths down the hill, is it? :-) I like to analyze my last run on the trip back up the hill - I can see, "oh, yeah, that's where I sort of chattered for a moment", and "Oh, yeah, that's where I was sure the edge was going to give out, but darned if it didn't hold!", etc. :-)

I'm laughing, Jim - I'm working on tweaking my Madd to be as comfortable as my Proteus and just found an old thread on Bomber/Alpinesnowboarder with you and Gilmour and Beckmann and Corey and who knows who else talking about stance setup. I'd forgotten that as abstruse and incomprehensible as Foil setup sometimes seems to be, it's a pale reflection of Hardboot discussions, especially when Beckmann and John G get going...

I'm getting a couple of hours/day on my local hill (Bousquet in the Berkshires) but mostly on skis. Took the Madd out first day the hill was open - not having been on snow in a year- and blew my back out big time. Just thinking about trying again, with my stance tweaked for smoother riding on very hard snow.

OMG - it really is a small world, isn't it?? :-). Yeah, those guys can geek out at least as well as anyone in the foiling world - in fact, I think it could be argued that the Geek Density Factor (GDF) is higher with those guys, as the snowboarding equipment is not nearly as complicated as foiling equipment, yet they geek out to at least the same level! :-)

I ended up a little bit wider on my stance than I had originally been when that thread started, but not nearly as wide as they'd been trying to convince me to go to - I just couldn't get comfortable at the width they said I needed to be at. (I believed them, and I tried - I just couldn't make it work there)

I should probably start a similar thread asking about foiling fanatics who are also slalom waterski fanatics - that's another personal pastime (or, pass-time... ;-) where the GDF is off the charts!

(Sorry to hear about the back, BTW - hope things get back into good shape soon!!)

This is interesting. Sounds like there is a cult of snowboarders that intentionally stuck with hardboots? I figured everyone who started on hardboots in the early days switched to soft boots in the 90's kind of like those whose's first VCR was a beta-max. But clearly there are pros and cons to any set up and the trick is to find the gear that excels at the style of riding you most love or have the conditions for.

So alpine boards excel at carving arcs in hardpack? That is something I love to do

LoL, yes, there is a small minority of folks who persist with hardboots! :-) I say 'persist' because by and large, it tends to be an older crowd, so many of us probably did go through the soft boot revolution and still came out the other side on hardboots, though there are a fair number of folks who have been introduced to alpine boarding post-revolution, and some who have made the switch from soft to hard. (And a few whackos who ride both, as conditions and whims dictate! ;-)

It's not to say that a skilled rider on the proper equipment can't rail serious carves on a softboot setup - Ryan Knapton is the poster child for softboot carving - the guy has mad skills, but is nonetheless on pretty purposeful softboot equipment. But, you can put an average rider (with the right mindset) on alpine equipment, and with some practice, said rider can lay down trenches in the snow that 99% of softboot riders never would or could. (Partly through interest/skill, partly through equipment, partly through getting out of the park-riding mindset.) If you enjoy higher speeds and deeper arcs, and if you feel like a little piece of your soul has been tarnished every time you skid your way through a turn that you could have ridden entirely on a razor edge, then an alpine board might just be what you're looking for!

If you've got some time to kill (like any forum, it's chock full of endless rabbit holes), you should check out forums.alpinesnowboarder.com - there's lots of interesting information, perspectives, recommendations, etc there - it's a good crowd, though like the foilers, there's some serious frothing!

This is basically how I ride in my soft boots set up, I love the g-forces in those big arcing carves but as you point out I often lose my edge and slide out.

Also, I like doing straighter lines rail to rail, which they do in that video too.

I find that often my heel lifts in the soft boot when toeside which is annoying, is that less likely in hardboots?

Oh, man, I shouldn't even get started here, LoL. :-)

Yeah, for me, there is nothing that compares to the feel of an alpine setup - having everything balanced on that one edge, and just slicing along on that edge all the way through the turn, is truly intoxicating. You can literally see a thin, snaking line the whole way down the hill, with no breaks other than the brief moment where you transitioned from edge to edge (and even then, one snaky like ends as the other starts right beside it). Depending on the board, some are more inclined to just make large, sweeping turns, but some (like the MK and slalom boards) can make shockingly-tight turns, too (the MK is pretty good at both large-radius and smaller-radius turns) - the catch being, everything is happening at warp speed, regardless of the turn radius. People always comment how fast the board is, and I always reply that I spend about 80% of my energy just trying to slow it down. :-) (Through constantly carving turns, and trying to make them fairly tight - but the thing is, when you're riding on edge the whole time, there's not much friction or drag to slow things down!)

The edge-to-edge speed of the narrower boards is astounding - it can almost take on a life of it's own, with your upper body staying pretty much in place, and the board and your lower body just zipping back and forth underneath you like it's got a mind of its own - if you're making small, shallow cuts when on flatter/smoother terrain, transitions between pitches, etc. (And for me at least, it's kind of a necessity - I pretty much constantly have the board on one edge or the other - riding flat on an alpine setup is a recipe for a nasty edge catch, as there is typically little-to-no bevel on the board or the edges, and any body movement translates pretty immediately into edge input, whether you intended it to or not.)

Like any boot, finding a boot that fits you well, and getting it dialed in for your foot is critical. I've had hardboots that fit really well, and others that have not fit particularly well. In a good fit, you'll get about zero heel lift, but you don't want that at the price of having to crank things down so tight that you lose circulation in your feet and are constantly thinking about getting out of your boots. I'm presently on a pair of UPZ boots, with heat-moulded Intuition liners, and some minor fit customization (customized foot beds, some minor additions to the outside of the liner to help hold my narrow feet well in place), and they're definitely the most performant boots I've ever had. TBH, I'm quite happy to get out of them at the end of the day, but I've finally gotten them dialed in to the point that they're not painful. (Even early on when they were painful, I still wore them all day because they simply kick ass on the board! :-) The most comfortable boots I ever had were an old pair of Burton Shadows, but alas, those are long gone - though not really 'alas', as while they were the most comfortable, they were definitely not the most high performance, and would not have worked well on a demanding beast like the MK...

That video you linked makes some very good observations. I think Ryan under-rates some aspects, as he's so used to a softboot setup, but he largely hits things on the head, IMHO. (Switch riding sucks - every time I've tried to carve switch, I've broken something on my body, LoL. Side-slipping is truly exhausting, especially side-slipping on heel edge. The boots are too stiff and too responsive for jumps - at least for me - it's not so much the jump as the landing! I have to disagree with him on heel vs toe side carves, though - both are awesome, but toe for me is the deepest and most committed edge.)

It's hard to say, "You should try it", as there is really nowhere to 'try' alpine gear - nobody rents alpine stuff, at least not that I've ever found. If you were out in CO, and got in touch w/ Sean at Donek, he'd almost certainly let you demo something, but you'd still need your own boots. I think that's part of why it's such a niche sport - it's just not easy to get into it - you have to be financially/materially committed (and it's a big commitment by the time you buy boots, bindings, and board) before you ever try it. Getting used gear can definitely help reduce the startup cost to some degree. It sounds like it'd be a good fit for you, though, just based on what you've thus far described. Definitely lurk around forums.alpinesnowboarder.com if you're interested, and feel free to jump in and start a thread - you'll get lots of impassioned replies, I guarantee! :-)

sick thanks Jim. Just what my wife needs. Another reason for me to drop 2K

I was hoping REI sold some of it then I could return it, but no luck.

You think these are a gimmick?

Yeah, when those came out a year or two back, they were quite the topic of discussion. There were of course the naysayers (who had never actually tried them, LoL), who swore they'd suck, and be the worst of all possible combinations. A few folks seemed to have actually tried them and generally seemed to report they were actually pretty decent, though I think a few of those folks ultimately ran into durability issues (parts wearing out, the softer uppers softening up and losing stiffness over time), but I never saw any definitive or longer-term reviews on them, and I haven't been on that site in a long while. They seemed to clearly fall short of true hard-shell boots, but ultimately, that may not necessarily be a horrible thing. (We all get stuck in our ways and preconceived notions.) If you check out the alpinesnowboarder forums and search for "ground control" (with quotes, probably), you're sure to find at least a few threads, and maybe some more updated information.

I suspect their utility/applicability would probably depend a fair bit on the type of board you had them on, as well. Something like an all-terrain/all-mountain style of alpine board would probably be more appropriate than something that is more hardcore carve/race-oriented.

Ground Control is a gimmick, and a silly one. OK for lightweight riders who aren't aggressive, but even at my age (66) I'd break them in three runs.

Jim's right on in describing the sensation and for me it's the utter purity of the carve which is intoxicating. I'm an ex-ski-racer (many hardbooters are) and still carve a very nice arc on almost any kind of ski, from true FIS slalom and GS sticks, to 94cm all-mountain. Still, I'll make a purer, longer line on a board than I'd ever make on skis, and I can do it over and over again all the way down the hill. I was out today on a pretty old Slalom board (Madd 158 - a cult classic), pulling 3 Gs again and again. You can do that on GS skis once you're going 35-45, and if you're Mikaela Shiffrin you can do it on slalom skis at 25. Any decent hardbooterer can do it all day, even at moderate speeds. You're also carving much longer arc than is possible on skis - 200? carves are commonplace (carving uphill is a way to control speed), and carving 360s not hard either

As far as boots go - it's like skiing. We used to say that if you have toenails in February your boots are too big, and that's almost true for hardboots too. My feet are 11.5 4E, and I wear size 27 boots - basically size 9 - which have been stretched across the forefoot and over the Talus just enough that once they're on (a chore!) I hardly need to buckle them. Any kind of sloppiness makes pure carving almost impossible, but well-fitted boots with good insoles you can put on in the morning and take off in the afternoon and not touch them all day.

There are some really good vids on youtube, and I'll see if my GoPro can give me a clip tomorrow too.