I was just doing some light reading and have seen that the International Formula Windsurfing Class Association IFWCA has updated their International Class Rules for both fin and foil racing. Seems they have increased the sail sizes for Men up to 12.5 and Women 11.0. Also an increase in max luff lengths up to 6250mm. I believe this is great news for the larger sailors to be able to compete in the lighter winds we are now racing in.
Now just need to see what the manufacturers come up with.

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DarrylG said..
I was just doing some light reading and have seen that the International Formula Windsurfing Class Association IFWCA has updated their International Class Rules for both fin and foil racing. Seems they have increased the sail sizes for Men up to 12.5 and Women 11.0. Also an increase in max luff lengths up to 6250mm. I believe this is great news for the larger sailors to be able to compete in the lighter winds we are now racing in.
Now just need to see what the manufacturers come up with.

I think the idea is you can take upto 12.5 in fin mode. Not sure about foil mode, but it was this way in 2018 aswell, some pros using 11m formulasails on the foil. The problem is that a 12.5m cutdown to a 10 is more efficient for foiling than a 12.5m as is, and a lot of brands are already around the allowed maximum luff. Making the sails bigger again and more low aspect will not help performance much, even hinder the sails high end capabilities.
A 10.0 easily has enough power to get going in 5 knots even for a heavy weight (I mean, most heavy weights are still lighter than pros the like of Arnon Dagan and Antoine Albeau, weighing in a nearly 110Kg), a 9.0 also gets you flying in those winds but lacks upwind. Racing often only starts at about 7 knots when the wind becomes consistent. I dont see any benefit of a bigger sail, I was hoping they make the biggest size for foiling smaller and make it more efficient for more ease of use, that was the news that was going around last year, 9.0 would be the maximum size.

Ofcourse the 110+kg category are currently out of luck, but I fear it will remain like that for the time being as the market for sails made for 110+kg people is very very small.

I agree, bigger is not always better. That is why not restricting design / development too much is a good thing.
A good example someone explained to me was the current slalom sails. The current limit is 10m. But no one makes or uses a 10m slalom sail. ie NP has a 9.4, if a 10.0 was quicker I,m sure A2 would get one. The max size has naturally stabilized.
Even a lot of formula sails are not at the maximum 12.5. Obviously the designers etc do not believe in gains going to the limits.

One restriction is all you really need then let the class breathe. In this case keeping the max board width to 1005 is all we need. This one limit will naturally restrict mast length, front wing size. Originally people thought the mast lengths were going to get longer and longer. But thru development everyone has seem to stabilized around the 95 to 105 length for racing. Front wing size is another, the 1000 wide wings are great but a lot of drag and are not that quick. I have tried 1200 wings and there are not many positives mainly negatives.

A current 10m is great for the light / medium sailors under 10 knots but quickly get out of their optimum above 10 knots. So they would never need to consider a 11m. Compared to a heavier sailor who could benefit from a 11 or 12m sail in under 10 knots. This could only improve the class and even up racing even more. Plus I think this would be better option than trying to enforce a higher minimum wind limit.

( disclaimer - I would be classed as a heavy weight :))

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DarrylG said..
I agree, bigger is not always better. That is why not restricting design / development too much is a good thing.
A good example someone explained to me was the current slalom sails. The current limit is 10m. But no one makes or uses a 10m slalom sail. ie NP has a 9.4, if a 10.0 was quicker I,m sure A2 would get one. The max size has naturally stabilized.
Even a lot of formula sails are not at the maximum 12.5. Obviously the designers etc do not believe in gains going to the limits.

One restriction is all you really need then let the class breathe. In this case keeping the max board width to 1005 is all we need. This one limit will naturally restrict mast length, front wing size. Originally people thought the mast lengths were going to get longer and longer. But thru development everyone has seem to stabilized around the 95 to 105 length for racing. Front wing size is another, the 1000 wide wings are great but a lot of drag and are not that quick. I have tried 1200 wings and there are not many positives mainly negatives.

A current 10m is great for the light / medium sailors under 10 knots but quickly get out of their optimum above 10 knots. So they would never need to consider a 11m. Compared to a heavier sailor who could benefit from a 11 or 12m sail in under 10 knots. This could only improve the class and even up racing even more. Plus I think this would be better option than trying to enforce a higher minimum wind limit.

( disclaimer - I would be classed as a heavy weight :))

I agree with you that just setting the board width might be enough! The problem I see with bigger foilsails is the following; If an 11.5 foilsail (for example) would exist, everyone needs to have one, and in 6 knots, the lighter rider with an 11.5 is still faster than the heavier rider with an 11.5. The difference the 11.5 would make is in the high end, where lighter sailors would lose angle by switching to a smaller sail (because the 11.5 is just too big), and heavyweights can keep holding on to the big sail for longer. Thats the same way its working now, except I think the differences would be more and more extreme the bigger the sails (and gaps between them) get.

In slalom its a different story, because the angles are not important. A 9.6 and a 7.8 are both equally fast around a course given they are the correct size for the rider. In up/down racing that's just not the case.

I think it would actually be slightly different. As you said too big a sail starts to lose speed and angle if over powered.
We already have some lighter riders < 70kg who already don't need or see any advantage in 10m sails as the effective operating range is too small. ie they could get going in 6 knots but by 9 knots they are quicker on a 9.
The 80 - 90 kg riders can already get an advantage by using a 10m in 6knots up to say 10 / 12 knots. Going to any 11m would not be an advantage.
The 100 plus riders would be the ones to benefit from a 11 plus m. Enabling them to lower their wind minimum. (The light weights would still have the upper hand in light winds)

So I could see a three sail quiver for riders like
Light weight 7 8 9
Medium 8 9 10
Heavy 9 10 11

Yes, I was thinking something similar, for example brands could provide 5 sizes, but for a season you can only use 3 of those you have to register. That way everyone can pick the right sizes for their weightclass and racing would be fair!

The only problem I'm seeing with a solution like that is that a 10m for 5-10 knots has to have some different characteristics than a 10m for 10-20 knots. I experience the difference between sizes mostly in their stiffness, my 9.0 has a lot more luff tension than my 10.0, this means my 10.0 is a lot easier to pump and overpowers more quickly, while the 9.0 gets going a little later for its size, but is comfortable for way higher up the windrange. Using these sails very much out of their range would not work very well.

Maybe specific light wind sizes would be an option, keeping 9.0 and 8.0 the same for all riders, and having the possibility to choose between 10 or 11 for the lightwind size. The 11 would have to be designed with a little more stiffness to allow for the wider windrange, but since it will only be used by the heavy weight riders it would have to be relatively stiffer anyway!

Much the same as Darryl could use a bigger sail than a 10m, i could really use a 7m windfoil race sail too (yeah i know there are brands out there doing them but i'd really like a HGO (pretty please with sugar on top)).


as you mentioned though WOH, speaking about the bigger sails, at sub 70kg its a very small market that would probably be buying them. So small, its not worth making them, as the profit would be negligible.


Living in hope though....

I think this will probably shake out over the next several months. The covid has slowed things down, so we all have to see what transpires. All of us old formula duffers welcome the 1005 mm board width.

A sail brand I use has developed somewhat higher aspect-ratio versions of their foil sails in 8.5 and 10.0 for racing. They are only just now getting them into covid-delayed production.

So, everyone, support your favorite brands. This industry is a bright light in the covid world.

I noticed this too yesterday when I saw a 2020 NP 10.0 on FB with a 608 luff and thinking, "Didn't they learn the first time around?" (referring to the Worlds issue last year when the limit was 600 and all the NP 10s were DQ'ed) Did some reading and discovered the same.

I'm with Subsonic as a smaller person - wishing that performance lighwind sails weren't just limited to the big end of the curve. Because there are so few opportunities to race locally, it doesn't make sense to spend a huge amount on a sail that is a PITA for foiling the other 50 weeks of the year.

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Subsonic said..
Much the same as Darryl could use a bigger sail than a 10m, i could really use a 7m windfoil race sail too (yeah i know there are brands out there doing them but i'd really like a HGO (pretty please with sugar on top)).


as you mentioned though WOH, speaking about the bigger sails, at sub 70kg its a very small market that would probably be buying them. So small, its not worth making them, as the profit would be negligible.


Living in hope though....

iqfoil.star-board.com/equipment/iqfoil-junior/

Here is the 7 GO

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Mitch Pearson said..

Subsonic said..
Much the same as Darryl could use a bigger sail than a 10m, i could really use a 7m windfoil race sail too (yeah i know there are brands out there doing them but i'd really like a HGO (pretty please with sugar on top)).


as you mentioned though WOH, speaking about the bigger sails, at sub 70kg its a very small market that would probably be buying them. So small, its not worth making them, as the profit would be negligible.


Living in hope though....

iqfoil.star-board.com/equipment/iqfoil-junior/

Here is the 7 GO

Interesting

i'll have to do some research...

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Subsonic said..

Mitch Pearson said..

Subsonic said..
Much the same as Darryl could use a bigger sail than a 10m, i could really use a 7m windfoil race sail too (yeah i know there are brands out there doing them but i'd really like a HGO (pretty please with sugar on top)).


as you mentioned though WOH, speaking about the bigger sails, at sub 70kg its a very small market that would probably be buying them. So small, its not worth making them, as the profit would be negligible.


Living in hope though....

iqfoil.star-board.com/equipment/iqfoil-junior/

Here is the 7 GO

Interesting

i'll have to do some research...

No need to do any more research than to try the one in my trailer, just grab it on Sunday.

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Subsonic said..
Much the same as Darryl could use a bigger sail than a 10m, i could really use a 7m windfoil race sail too (yeah i know there are brands out there doing them but i'd really like a HGO (pretty please with sugar on top)).


as you mentioned though WOH, speaking about the bigger sails, at sub 70kg its a very small market that would probably be buying them. So small, its not worth making them, as the profit would be negligible.


Living in hope though....

Come over to the good looking side and get a 7m Flight Evo my friend.. :P

For the HGO 9, what does XL mean for the cambers?

"3xXL, 1xSDM"

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snides8 said..

Subsonic said..

Mitch Pearson said..

Subsonic said..
Much the same as Darryl could use a bigger sail than a 10m, i could really use a 7m windfoil race sail too (yeah i know there are brands out there doing them but i'd really like a HGO (pretty please with sugar on top)).


as you mentioned though WOH, speaking about the bigger sails, at sub 70kg its a very small market that would probably be buying them. So small, its not worth making them, as the profit would be negligible.


Living in hope though....

iqfoil.star-board.com/equipment/iqfoil-junior/

Here is the 7 GO

Interesting

i'll have to do some research...

No need to do any more research than to try the one in my trailer, just grab it on Sunday.

I sure will Snides

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Maddlad said..

Subsonic said..
Much the same as Darryl could use a bigger sail than a 10m, i could really use a 7m windfoil race sail too (yeah i know there are brands out there doing them but i'd really like a HGO (pretty please with sugar on top)).


as you mentioned though WOH, speaking about the bigger sails, at sub 70kg its a very small market that would probably be buying them. So small, its not worth making them, as the profit would be negligible.


Living in hope though....

Come over to the good looking side and get a 7m Flight Evo my friend.. :P

I'll leave the purple people eaters to you old chap.

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Subsonic said..

Maddlad said..

Subsonic said..
Much the same as Darryl could use a bigger sail than a 10m, i could really use a 7m windfoil race sail too (yeah i know there are brands out there doing them but i'd really like a HGO (pretty please with sugar on top)).


as you mentioned though WOH, speaking about the bigger sails, at sub 70kg its a very small market that would probably be buying them. So small, its not worth making them, as the profit would be negligible.


Living in hope though....

Come over to the good looking side and get a 7m Flight Evo my friend.. :P

I'll leave the purple people eaters to you old chap.

Fair enough, more awesomeness for me then..

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WhiteofHeart said..
Yes, I was thinking something similar, for example brands could provide 5 sizes, but for a season you can only use 3 of those you have to register. That way everyone can pick the right sizes for their weightclass and racing would be fair!

The only problem I'm seeing with a solution like that is that a 10m for 5-10 knots has to have some different characteristics than a 10m for 10-20 knots. I experience the difference between sizes mostly in their stiffness, my 9.0 has a lot more luff tension than my 10.0, this means my 10.0 is a lot easier to pump and overpowers more quickly, while the 9.0 gets going a little later for its size, but is comfortable for way higher up the windrange. Using these sails very much out of their range would not work very well.

Maybe specific light wind sizes would be an option, keeping 9.0 and 8.0 the same for all riders, and having the possibility to choose between 10 or 11 for the lightwind size. The 11 would have to be designed with a little more stiffness to allow for the wider windrange, but since it will only be used by the heavy weight riders it would have to be relatively stiffer anyway!

Yes, having a split range ( even just at the large end) is a great idea. I think a few of the brands used to do that with their largest slalom sails for a few years. I seem to remember JP having there slalom boards split into heavy rider / light rider at one stage, and there was also the Starboard HWR LWR formula boards etc.
My guess is we will see a lot of the manufacturers bringing out bigger foil sails next season. Looking forward to see what they do. :)))

Using bigger sails usually equals less fun unless you are well underpowered.

I am planning on using my 2008 5m Vapor sail this summer a lot. Had one of the most enjoyable sails ever on Wednesday when I rigged it for the first time in 5 years. The feel is so light and throw about I felt I was experiencing that moment that Jasper talks about in his interview when carving off the swells etc.

We mostly think you need 20 plus knots to get them going but I was planing in only 15 knots or so with it on a 100 litre board with a 34 Lockwood carbon fin.

I reckon a lot of the fun has been taken out of windsurfing in recent years with many being pushed in to the norm of using over sized sails.

Possibly another reason why foiling has taken off so much.

I could not think of anything less fun than using a big race sail underpowered

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petermac33 said..
Using bigger sails usually equals less fun unless you are well underpowered.

I am planning on using my 2008 5m Vapor sail this summer a lot. Had one of the most enjoyable sails ever on Wednesday when I rigged it for the first time in 5 years. The feel is so light and throw about I felt I was experiencing that moment that Jasper talks about in his interview when carving off the swells etc.

We mostly think you need 20 plus knots to get them going but I was planing in only 15 knots or so with it on a 100 litre board with a 34 Lockwood carbon fin.

I reckon a lot of the fun has been taken out of windsurfing in recent years with many being pushed in to the norm of using over sized sails.

Possibly another reason why foiling has taken off so much.

Pete don't get to confused when we are talking about big sails for foiling, we are only talking about racing and under 10 knots.
Something that was never possible before. If it is 10 knots plus we can just about use any size sail. It is incredible how much foiling has improved our bottom end, the hairs we are splitting are now like the difference between 6 and 8 knots ( a 33% increase in speed).
This is the direction where the biggest gains have been made, even at the start of foiling few would have guessed how low we have gone.
Which leads back the topic of the thread, I think it would be great to be able to increase sail sizes rather than trying to enforce higher wind minimums for racing. ( I would rather be on the water than sitting on the beach)

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DarrylG said..

petermac33 said..
Using bigger sails usually equals less fun unless you are well underpowered.

I am planning on using my 2008 5m Vapor sail this summer a lot. Had one of the most enjoyable sails ever on Wednesday when I rigged it for the first time in 5 years. The feel is so light and throw about I felt I was experiencing that moment that Jasper talks about in his interview when carving off the swells etc.

We mostly think you need 20 plus knots to get them going but I was planing in only 15 knots or so with it on a 100 litre board with a 34 Lockwood carbon fin.

I reckon a lot of the fun has been taken out of windsurfing in recent years with many being pushed in to the norm of using over sized sails.

Possibly another reason why foiling has taken off so much.

Pete don't get to confused when we are talking about big sails for foiling, we are only talking about racing and under 10 knots.
Something that was never possible before. If it is 10 knots plus we can just about use any size sail. It is incredible how much foiling has improved our bottom end, the hairs we are splitting are now like the difference between 6 and 8 knots ( a 33% increase in speed).
This is the direction where the biggest gains have been made, even at the start of foiling few would have guessed how low we have gone.
Which leads back the topic of the thread, I think it would be great to be able to increase sail sizes rather than trying to enforce higher wind minimums for racing. ( I would rather be on the water than sitting on the beach)

I agree with allowing bigger sail sizes, the argument against them is contradictory, it goes you don't need a bigger sail, a 9.0 is big enough as no there advantage in a larger size. .....OK why then worry about people choosing a bigger size if there is no advantage, why stop people choosing to use one, if there is no advantage to them then it should not affect people who don't want them. At 100kg I want the option to use a bigger sail if I choose because guaranteed in under 10knts the guys 20 and 30 kg lighter will enjoy a massive advantage if a 9.0 is the limit.

and the arguments from people who say I hate using big sails they are so uncomfortable. really........ hello this is racing you are not supposed to be comfortable, your racing.

I disagree that racing has not been possible in under 10 knts before, in fact I don't think foils have lowered the wind limit for fleet racing in any meaningful way, at best 1 or 2 knts on Formula but that could be argued and certainly all the centreboard classes can race in winds a lot lower than a foil

Anyway me and my eldest son both own 12.0 formula sails and they are both still in good condition, I am planning to get them cut down into high aspect foil sails, hope it works ok

I think we should limit the weight at 100 kg.

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DarrylG said..

... I think it would be great to be able to increase sail sizes rather than trying to enforce higher wind minimums for racing. ( I would rather be on the water than sitting on the beach)

I would prefer a well designed race foil sail that provides good bottom end and adjustable for a wide wind range, matched with the right size foil for the rider weight, than a big old formula sail with an extra 2-3m of rag just adding drag and weight

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jusavina said..
I think we should limit the weight at 100 kg.

Lightweight here (70kg). I'm in the category of someone who doesn't actually see the point of a 10.0 at my weight, I only have a 8.0 and 9.0 HG2's. Realistically in our NSW series and even in the Nationals racing is not happening until i'm well powered on the 9.0 and would be right at the top end of a 10.0. I can legit foil in 5-6kts but i'm probably one of maybe 2 that can actually foil in those light conditions in our series....so we never actually race in that, it's more like 8-10kts consistent before we are racing. The 8.0 is actually faster than the 9.0 upwind from about 12kts because the drag is a fair bit lower at the high apparent wind speeds upwind....but it is a fair bit slower downwind until about 15-16kts as the 9.0 can sail a bit deeper and better VMG downwind. So the 8-9 cross over for me is about 15-16kts.

I'd be surprised if anyone ever actually makes a 12.5 foil sail, too heavy, too much drag and too small of a window for even someone at 100kg+ imo. But i'm with Darryl, the open rule is good in that it allows you to tweak your setup to you needs, heavy and light sailors alike. I'm usually 1-2m^2 smaller in rig and even sometimes foil than a lot of the fleet and can usually hang in with the big guys even in the heavier conditions. I would say though in that 6-10kt range being light does pay, particularly downwind...actually light is always fast downwind

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oscardog said..
For the HGO 9, what does XL mean for the cambers?

"3xXL, 1xSDM"

the XL cams were previously used in reflex+mach1&2.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/Severne-R3-56-with-rdm-cams?page=1

Yet to see anyone plane on a foil in 5 to 6 knots.

The lowest I have seen is around the 8 knot mark and that was Blair on his 9.4 Gaastra and 100 cm wide Kinetic board last weekend.

I will add he struggled to get upwind and had no top end even in the 11 knot gusts. Not saying planing lower than 8 knots is not possible for a few lightweight highly skilled sailors but its far from the norm.

Yesterday I watched a large hydrofoil kite plane in 5 knots and this is almost normal for these things.

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petermac33 said..
I will add he struggled to get upwind and had no top end even in the 11 knot gusts. Not saying planing lower than 8 knots is not possible for a few lightweight highly skilled sailors but its far from the norm.

Isn't that exactly what I said? Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not possible. You are right though, in super marginal conditions it's hard to make it upwind but it's no problem by 8-9kts. But Like I said we never race in those conditions because very few people have the right setup or have the technique to do it so it's not really fair. By 12kts, downwind on a race foil, 22-24kts is no probs so not sure what you mean by no top end. We are no match for race kite foils in any wind.

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petermac33 said..
Yet to see anyone plane on a foil in 5 to 6 knots.

The lowest I have seen is around the 8 knot mark and that was Blair on his 9.4 Gaastra and 100 cm wide Kinetic board last weekend.

I will add he struggled to get upwind and had no top end even in the 11 knot gusts. Not saying planing lower than 8 knots is not possible for a few lightweight highly skilled sailors but its far from the norm.

Yesterday I watched a large hydrofoil kite plane in 5 knots and this is almost normal for these things.

This is the upwind mark. Both Severnes are 9s, GA is 10. Third sailor past the mark (iirc) is a former Kona world champ. Nice kid and great windsurfer.

www.facebook.com/Britt.Viehman/videos/10156868270441720/

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petermac33 said..
Yet to see anyone plane on a foil in 5 to 6 knots.

The lowest I have seen is around the 8 knot mark and that was Blair on his 9.4 Gaastra and 100 cm wide Kinetic board last weekend.

I will add he struggled to get upwind and had no top end even in the 11 knot gusts. Not saying planing lower than 8 knots is not possible for a few lightweight highly skilled sailors but its far from the norm.

Yesterday I watched a large hydrofoil kite plane in 5 knots and this is almost normal for these things.

Your sailing in the wrong spot Pete. Melville is too shallow. ( mainly only learner / free ride foilers) Around the corner at Foilville we had over a dozen foilers yesterday. I was able to sail for 55km with an 8m on a mainly red arrow day peaking speeds just over 27knt.