What are ways to enhance upwind ability foiling? While I am much better than on fin going upwind, I am nowhere near what more experienced foilers are doing on upwind angle. Is it sail mast position? Flat sail, full sail, sheeting technique, railing technique??? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Select to expand quote

tswei99 said..
What are ways to enhance upwind ability foiling? While I am much better than on fin going upwind, I am nowhere near what more experienced foilers are doing on upwind angle. Is it sail mast position? Flat sail, full sail, sheeting technique, railing technique??? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Speed, plenty of sail power, rail the board slightly to windward and both feet in the straps - works for me.

Infinity 76 gets a slightly better angle upwind than the 65 unless it's properly windy...

SW 20-25 knots - 65 wing
Downwind leg is 5kms

Or if you like straighter lines.
just get powered up and point. More power more lift, more height
Here is a track with better than 45degrees to TWA. 8m and 900 wing
:))



www.facebook.com/groups/187817192640290/permalink/423206972434643/

Select to expand quote

DarrylG said..
Or if you like straighter lines.
just get powered up and point. More power more lift, more height
Here is a track with better than 45degrees to TWA. 8m and 900 wing
:))



www.facebook.com/groups/187817192640290/permalink/423206972434643/

Darryl & JJ, 2 of the best scribblers in WA??

To be honest, whether technique will help you much depends on who and especially what kit you are comparing to. A low aspect foil like a slingshot I76 will just not have a good upwind performance in foil terms (compared to a fin its great, but my experience is that for wxample raceboards can point higher). A freerace or race foil will point much much higher with a lot more speed.

If compared to someone else on the same kit (also sailsize / type), you're not pointing competatively:
Thighten the outhaul - you might want to think about a variable outhaul kit, thightening and letting off outhaul does not only increase/decrease power in the sail, but also (way more useful for foiling, as you'll see in the next point) shifts the preassurepoint fore and aft.
Shift the harness lines back - for good upwind you want the power on the front hand when going downwind, on the downwind leg you can let off outhaul tension which will move the power back and balance the sail on the lines. Having power on the backhand is the absolute #1 upwind performance killer on the foil.
get your feet on the rail - further out than the straps if neccessary, most boards have straps set so that they are comfortable across or downwind aswell, this is too far inboard for upwind, only your big toe should be in the footstrap
Extend your upper torso outboard as far as you can, you should feel absolutely stretched out.
Removing your uphaul (or to a lesser degree moving it to the upwind side) also makes a huge 3-5? and 4-5kph difference.
Lastly, you have to be powered up, if you can barely fly you're just not gonna point. I can get up with 4.9 in an 11 knot gust, but real pointing upwind only begins at around 16 knots, where for me above 18 knots (base wind, say gusting 24) with the same sail across the wind is not really comfortable/relaxed foiling anymore

For me personally I quit racing and only use wavesails since this December. I set my lines to be comfortable upwind, if really powered up across the wind the lines will be set comfortably too, downwind I'm mostly zigzagging down with a limot of jibes, or doing speedruns, so the line position is fine. If you do long not really powered up legs downwind you may want to move your lines, get a second set or a variable outhaul even for the wavesail if upwind is important to you.

All other things being equal (sail, board, wind, foil) what dramatically works for me is to simply stand further outboard. I have been experimenting with a i76 under a Exocet 132 foilboard. With the front footstraps in the inboard positions and back foot strapless near the middle of the board, I can pretty much only go abeam. Simply putting my back foot into a footstrap (even inboard mounted) makes a huge difference in upwind ability. It really is a matter of leveraging the foil with the back foot further to windward from the centerline.

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

Removing your uphaul (or to a lesser degree moving it to the upwind side) also makes a huge 3-5? and 4-5kph difference.

You have always been straight with us WoH, but is this a joke?

I never sail without an uphaul no matter what it is blowing

With 5.0 and either 600 or 1220, in 12-18 knots, I can only go upwind, approaching amateur Formula angles.
After 2 runs,I have to spend 5 minutes heading back downwind sheeted out..mostly foiling..and rear foot out of strap.
I hate course slalom.

Anthony, upwind, you need more power...like easy waterstart power.

WoHs advice seems solid. I think I'm going to have to go back to sailing without an uphaul lol. I did adjust mine so it was nice and tight on the sail.

I will reinforce his point that getting outboard helps heaps. And also you want your gear to feel loose, you don't want excessive pressure on either hands or feet, the foil will fly itself upwind, you shouldn't really have to force it.

Possibly from a fin sailing perspective maybe you are trying to force it upwind too much, i.e. railing and driving hard on the back foot. But if you have your kit set up right, you should fly loose, and the gear will just want to suck itself upwind, all you gotta do is make sure you pick up some speed first and then point it in the direction you want to go.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Removing your uphaul (or to a lesser degree moving it to the upwind side) also makes a huge 3-5? and 4-5kph difference.

You have always been straight with us WoH, but is this a joke?

I never sail without an uphaul no matter what it is blowing

No joke, I dont have an uphaul on my waveboom anyway, the sail is so light it doesnt need one, on the racing kit I put it inside the mast sleeve and get it out if it was needed, although I mostly also uphauled the 9 and 10 without one (pro-tip is to use the side of the board to help lift the sail, just stand on the outer rail of the formula / racing board, and the other rail will lift the sail up the first bit/flush the water out of the mastsleeve, then quickly grab the foot and work your way up).

Funny story, a mate and me were on exactly the same kit (or so I thought), and I have always been the faster foiler with the better upwind angle. However, that day he was hammering! I gave it my all but just couldnt keep up, once we met up again we tried to figure out what could be responsible for the difference, turns out his uphaul broke last session and he had been sailing without one. I removed mine and was winning again. The differences were huge! 3-5 degrees and/or 4-5 kph depending on whether I was trying to point or doing a speedrun.

I always thought grabbing the uphaul when going upwind in light wind was allowing me to have a more efficient stance, thats not true (well, it might have, but...), its just removing the uphaul to stop it from distorting the airflow across the sail which increases power in the rig.

Btw, I feel the same way as Swoosh, if its feeling like you're applying a lot of force on the kit its not going right. For me in practice this often translates to either too little outhaul, too little downhaul or harnesslines too much forward, that brings disbalance in the kit (all cause backhand power) and causes me to have to apply force somewhere to compensate. If everything is balanced going upwind should still be hard on your body, but mostly because your trying to stretch out as far as you can, and not because you're applying force on the kit somehow.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Removing your uphaul (or to a lesser degree moving it to the upwind side) also makes a huge 3-5? and 4-5kph difference.

You have always been straight with us WoH, but is this a joke?

I never sail without an uphaul no matter what it is blowing

All the pros I've seen on video sail without one which is usually fine but I've seen them drop a sail and then struggle to uphaul while the fleet sails past. I guess the moral of the story is don't drop the sail.

I am tempted to stuff it into the sleeve for giggles and see if it helps my pointing. Bug splatter on the leading edge of an airplane wing is known to sap performance so not surprising that something as big as an uphaul disturbs the flow as well.

www.shreveporttimes.com/story/news/local/2015/04/29/bug-splatter-test-flights-begin-shreveport-regional/26584133/
gizmodo.com/nasa-has-a-fix-for-the-billion-dollar-problem-of-splatt-1708499093

With an AFS Wind95 foil and F1080 or F770 wing (higher aspect wings, but not race wings) I go upwind by leaning out (no rear foot strap), I also lean the board over, but depending on the wind strength and sail size I can maintain the upwind angle for only so long, so when the gust peak passes or I slow down I will bear off to pick up speed, and then head back upwind once my speed is up. So going upwind can be a zigzag movement depending on the gusts and overall wind speed, sail size and foil.

in my experience, a fully cambered sail will make it much easier to point upwind than a non cambered sail.

Start playing with your position when pointing upwind and pay attention to the changes of angles when you move. Try to be as outboard as possible and point your front shoulder toward the wind and also look upwind last Saturday I was doing all that and really paying attention to my stance and I was very impressed with the big difference subtle changes in stance can make to upwind sailing.
trimming your sail is also important. Regarding ditching the uphaul, if you all your gybes are dry and while foiling and you almost never miss one and you never fall, I guess you could go without one. If you are like me, getting one dry flying gybe per session and catapulting once a day, I think no uphaul will drain your energy and you will sail less. pros don't drop the sail and if they do, the race is over for them (or at least they will lose a lot of positions). Plus, their races are generally few minutes long. Lastly, they are pros (just because they foil with a 9 m sail in real 20-25 knots it does not mean that the same sail size for that wind is the answer for me).

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

thedoor said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Removing your uphaul (or to a lesser degree moving it to the upwind side) also makes a huge 3-5? and 4-5kph difference.

You have always been straight with us WoH, but is this a joke?

I never sail without an uphaul no matter what it is blowing

No joke, I dont have an uphaul on my waveboom anyway, the sail is so light it doesnt need one, on the racing kit I put it inside the mast sleeve and get it out if it was needed, although I mostly also uphauled the 9 and 10 without one (pro-tip is to use the side of the board to help lift the sail, just stand on the outer rail of the formula / racing board, and the other rail will lift the sail up the first bit/flush the water out of the mastsleeve, then quickly grab the foot and work your way up).

Funny story, a mate and me were on exactly the same kit (or so I thought), and I have always been the faster foiler with the better upwind angle. However, that day he was hammering! I gave it my all but just couldnt keep up, once we met up again we tried to figure out what could be responsible for the difference, turns out his uphaul broke last session and he had been sailing without one. I removed mine and was winning again. The differences were huge! 3-5 degrees and/or 4-5 kph depending on whether I was trying to point or doing a speedrun.

I always thought grabbing the uphaul when going upwind in light wind was allowing me to have a more efficient stance, thats not true (well, it might have, but...), its just removing the uphaul to stop it from distorting the airflow across the sail which increases power in the rig.

Btw, I feel the same way as Swoosh, if its feeling like you're applying a lot of force on the kit its not going right. For me in practice this often translates to either too little outhaul, too little downhaul or harnesslines too much forward, that brings disbalance in the kit (all cause backhand power) and causes me to have to apply force somewhere to compensate. If everything is balanced going upwind should still be hard on your body, but mostly because your trying to stretch out as far as you can, and not because you're applying force on the kit somehow.

I like the idea of tucking it in the mast sleeve. Presumably you don't attach it to the universal. You just stuff it down there? Does it get in the way of cams?

I rarely use the uphaul anyways as I am a pretty efficient water starter, but it came in handy the other day. I always thought guys who sailed without uphauls were showing off lol

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I was out today and this season I have twin track boards, so I bumped the foil forward about 1 cm, this seemed to help a lot. The more forward foil mast position seems to allow me to angle the foil better and "keep things flowing" as been suggested above.

I also take the point of being too heavy on the backfoot. After 30+ yrs of speed fin sailing, I tend to setup my rig for downwind speed, and this includes my harness line and boom height. A couple small adjustments there should help things as well.

Cheers.

get your heels on your rails, you point!

DC

You can also wrap the uphaul line around the front of the boom to keep it away from the airflow on the sail itself.

The entire Cal Cup crew uses uphauls...snug to luff but dangling.....just like you and me.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..
With an AFS Wind95 foil and F1080 or F770 wing (higher aspect wings, but not race wings) I go upwind by leaning out (no rear foot strap), I also lean the board over, but depending on the wind strength and sail size I can maintain the upwind angle for only so long, so when the gust peak passes or I slow down I will bear off to pick up speed, and then head back upwind once my speed is up. So going upwind can be a zigzag movement depending on the gusts and overall wind speed, sail size and foil.

Agree. I'm finding the fastest way upwind (and down) is not such a straight line after all.
also some more on this topic here...

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Upwind-technique-top-tips-please-?page=1

Select to expand quote

berowne said..

Sandman1221 said..
With an AFS Wind95 foil and F1080 or F770 wing (higher aspect wings, but not race wings) I go upwind by leaning out (no rear foot strap), I also lean the board over, but depending on the wind strength and sail size I can maintain the upwind angle for only so long, so when the gust peak passes or I slow down I will bear off to pick up speed, and then head back upwind once my speed is up. So going upwind can be a zigzag movement depending on the gusts and overall wind speed, sail size and foil.

Agree. I'm finding the fastest way upwind (and down) is not such a straight line after all.
also some more on this topic here...

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Upwind-technique-top-tips-please-?page=1

Race boats operate in a similar fashion, but they have a foresail set on a sheeted position with telltales on it to show windflow over the sail. So they can get a good read on whether they need to point up or down (or tack if they've been knocked too much)

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

berowne said..

Sandman1221 said..
With an AFS Wind95 foil and F1080 or F770 wing (higher aspect wings, but not race wings) I go upwind by leaning out (no rear foot strap), I also lean the board over, but depending on the wind strength and sail size I can maintain the upwind angle for only so long, so when the gust peak passes or I slow down I will bear off to pick up speed, and then head back upwind once my speed is up. So going upwind can be a zigzag movement depending on the gusts and overall wind speed, sail size and foil.

Agree. I'm finding the fastest way upwind (and down) is not such a straight line after all.
also some more on this topic here...

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Upwind-technique-top-tips-please-?page=1

Race boats operate in a similar fashion, but they have a foresail set on a sheeted position with telltales on it to show windflow over the sail. So they can get a good read on whether they need to point up or down (or tack if they've been knocked too much)

One of the Windfoil crew regularly rides with a sail equipped with tell-tales!!

Select to expand quote

berowne said.


One of the Windfoil crew regularly rides with a sail equipped with tell-tales!!

I was wondering why tell tales aren't on windsurfing sails? Is it because windsurfing can cheat tell tale readings due to the angles of the windsurf sail?

Select to expand quote

MagicRide said..

berowne said.


One of the Windfoil crew regularly rides with a sail equipped with tell-tales!!

I was wondering why tell tales aren't on windsurfing sails? Is it because windsurfing can cheat tell tale readings due to the angles of the windsurf sail?

I run tell-tales on my rig like Berowne said. I initially put them on more out of interest just to see what was happening. I don't think they are as important as on a boat because as we predominantly hold the boom with our hands we have a very good 'feel' for the pressure in the rig and adjust accordingly naturally. Racing windfoil's though, particularly downwind, it's very easy to stall the flow on the back side of the rig in lighter conditions as you don't have as much rig feel downwind due to less pressure, they just help in identifying this and keeping in a good mode

Tell tales were used by longboard racers. On the downwind they often had to run the sail directly across the board. It was instructive to know what direction the wind was flowing across the sail. You always wanted flow, even reverse flow, but never a stall.

For slalom and formula racing you ALWAYS wanted airflow to run from mast to clew at all times.