Hi
I've reviewed the different posts about multipurpose wind/wing/foil boards. Some people say they are not good for foiling due to thin tail and others use them in light winds with no problem.

For example, naish crossover behaves well at windfoiling while fone papenoo not.

Naish crossover has the foil mast quite advanced while fone papenoo has it close to tail. Then on the naish your weight should be more advanced, over a flatter part of the hull, good for taking off. The board behind you and the tail has more rocker. Could this tail rocker work as the stepped tail of the foil dedicated boards?

With the foil mast closer to the tail, you have very few volume underneath and the hull you are over is rockered, bad for flying in light wind.

Does it make sense? Same performance in other boards according to foil mast position?

Not sure I fully understand what you are saying. But in my opinion you do not want to have the foil mast and the sail mast too close together. So I would prefer to have the foil track back and not have much of a kick tail

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thedoor said..
Not sure I fully understand what you are saying. But in my opinion you do not want to have the foil mast and the sail mast too close together. So I would prefer to have the foil track back and not have much of a kick tail

That's definitely the trend, but then there are setups like the Sealion, where the max distance from mast to front Tuttle bolt is only 30.5" and there's really a LOT of rocker. Mine arrived yesterday and there's no wind forecast until Sunday but I'll report back once I've tried it. Going to surf-SUP it this morning. Seems to be optimized for sailing lightly powered on a big wing. I have a big Foil/Slalom Convertible which will carry a big sail and a high-aspect foil so the Sealion will be for Windsup/Surfsup. Construction is flat out gorgeous by the way.

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Awalkspoiled said..

thedoor said..
Not sure I fully understand what you are saying. But in my opinion you do not want to have the foil mast and the sail mast too close together. So I would prefer to have the foil track back and not have much of a kick tail

That's definitely the trend, but then there are setups like the Sealion, where the max distance from mast to front Tuttle bolt is only 30.5" and there's really a LOT of rocker. Mine arrived yesterday and there's no wind forecast until Sunday but I'll report back once I've tried it. Going to surf-SUP it this morning. Seems to be optimized for sailing lightly powered on a big wing. I have a big Foil/Slalom Convertible which will carry a big sail and a high-aspect foil so the Sealion will be for Windsup/Surfsup. Construction is flat out gorgeous by the way.

I love the sealion concept, please let us know how it works out

So with the uni all the way forwards you only get 30 in? I think I currently run about 32in so thats in the ball park. Much less than that is where I think things get tricky esp for beginners

The sealion looks fun!

Based on playing with the 4-in-1 Hypernut these are my observations:
The rocker is surf optimized so they are sticky to get going. This is especially noticeably with HA foils since they need quite a bit of speed, also the rocker allows you to pitch the foil up before it has decent flying speed. This works fine with a big surf foil that you can foot pump a bit, not very good with a fast HA foil.
The Hypernut has the tuttle box on the rocker and I had to shim the mast head to get any lift with the board flat, otherwise it had to be pitched way up. I think because the tuttle box on this particular version is a compromise SUPfoil set-up.

I believe board member AlexF has a custom crossover board based closely on the Pampenoo which he quite likes.

The Naish boards seem to be much less surf focused and I haven't actually seen anyone try to wavesail one bespite knowing a few people who have them and also wavesail. That might tell you something. I quite like my Hypernut in the waves.

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thedoor said..
Not sure I fully understand what you are saying. But in my opinion you do not want to have the foil mast and the sail mast too close together. So I would prefer to have the foil track back and not have much of a kick tail

Hi

To sum up: the crossover boards that have the foil tracks in an advanced position (flatter hull) have better performance at windfoiling that those with the foil mast close to the tail (very curved zone). Besides the first ones could be using the wave rockered tail behind as the stepped tail of the windfoil specialised boards.

The sealion is the most simple version of 5-1 board. It's very attractive to have one board instead of the three for foiling, float& ride wavesailing and supsurfing. In the wind mag they have tested some multipurpose boards and the result of the sealion was not good, but I don't understand why.

I'm looking forward to knowing your opinion, Awalkspoiled, thanks.

Hi Mucel,

I read your private message and will answer here, so maybe others searching the forum can use the knowledge.

Your question:

"Could you give me your opinion about it (F-One Papenoo) in those of the applications (float & ride wavesailing, SUPsurfing, and windfoiling. Maybe in future for learning wingfoiling also.) you used it?"

Just so you know, I've pretty much solely used it as a foiling board. Mainly for winging and windfoiling. The papenoos I have (both 124 & 95L) both have double US tracks at the back, and a KF box situated further forward. I believe the tracks are intended for windfoiling, and the KF for all other foiling sports. I never used the KF box, I think thats also why the new versions of the Papenoo dont have the KF box ;).

For both winging and entry windfoil the board is nice. I used the board mainly in combination with the F-One Levo foil (2019-2022 versions) and F-One Phantom 1780 & 1480. I tried winging & windfoiling with both. Winging went very well with all wings, windfoiling is fine with the Levo, but doesnt work with the phantom wings even with the mast all the way forward in the tracks.

For winging I put the mast all the way forward and still have to stand quite far back on the board, but for learning the board is awesome. Its also very easy to get going because of the length, which helps the board glide up on the foil more compared to more compact wing specific boards. Same goes for windfoiling.

The "issues" arise when your technique increases and you start pumping. Because of the length and volume distribution the board doesnt react to pumping as well as some of the more compact windfoil or wingfoil specific boards.

When we're talking late to plane we're not talking massive differences. I get my 105L windfoil board up on the foil with 4.9 in 10-12 knots, with the Papenoo I need 11-14 I think (95Kg). Thats using the Levo 900cm2 high aspect freestyle/freerace foil.

A mate of mine used it for supping in the waves & low wind freestyle with a windsurf sail and enjoyed it very much, but I cant really comment.

I hope I helped you a little ;).

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Mucel said..

thedoor said..
Not sure I fully understand what you are saying. But in my opinion you do not want to have the foil mast and the sail mast too close together. So I would prefer to have the foil track back and not have much of a kick tail

Hi

To sum up: the crossover boards that have the foil tracks in an advanced position (flatter hull) have better performance at windfoiling that those with the foil mast close to the tail (very curved zone). Besides the first ones could be using the wave rockered tail behind as the stepped tail of the windfoil specialised boards.

I guess I see a third option that would be best for windfoiling: tracks toward the rear but minimal tail rocker

I use the Naish 122 Hover.
Full tail rocker, like Papenoo, but very flat nose, thin rails, crowned deck.
Windfoil, foils up as well as boards with blocky rails and flat rocker, ie Aliens, Wiz, Dialers.
Works fine with 1220, 1150, and 600 front foils.
Boxes very far back.
Been using RRD Pocket Rocket for Wing, but will use ,the Naish next time out.
Surfs OK, a little unstable to SUP.

Flat tail rocker won't turn on a wave in fin mode, especially at SUP width.

Problem with the Sea Lion is lots of rocker and no straps.

Sunova have a 4-in-1 that looks interesting.

Goya teased this:
www.instagram.com/tv/CQRkrA-l8Yu/?utm_medium=copy_link
But no indication of actually producing them

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Grantmac said..
Flat tail rocker won't turn on a wave in fin mode, especially at SUP width.

Problem with the Sea Lion is lots of rocker and no straps.

Sunova have a 4-in-1 that looks interesting.

Goya teased this:
www.instagram.com/tv/CQRkrA-l8Yu/?utm_medium=copy_link
But no indication of actually producing them

That goya board looks pretty sick

There was a strapped sealion proto too

what is the purpose of the Sea Lion split tail design?

Fish/split tails have been around since the mid '50's, in the form of 10' surfboards.
Straighter, wider tail, split cutout to affect better response at speed, but area back to catch and move in slower waves.
Lots of tail shapes around...star, coffee can, pin, rounded pins, squash, square, moon, asym., it allworks sometime in some specific situations.

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LeeD said..
Fish/split tails have been around since the mid '50's, in the form of 10' surfboards.
Straighter, wider tail, split cutout to affect better response at speed, but area back to catch and move in slower waves.
Lots of tail shapes around...star, coffee can, pin, rounded pins, squash, square, moon, asym., it allworks sometime in some specific situations.

Thanks LeeD

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Awalkspoiled said..

thedoor said..
Not sure I fully understand what you are saying. But in my opinion you do not want to have the foil mast and the sail mast too close together. So I would prefer to have the foil track back and not have much of a kick tail

That's definitely the trend, but then there are setups like the Sealion, where the max distance from mast to front Tuttle bolt is only 30.5" and there's really a LOT of rocker. Mine arrived yesterday and there's no wind forecast until Sunday but I'll report back once I've tried it. Going to surf-SUP it this morning. Seems to be optimized for sailing lightly powered on a big wing. I have a big Foil/Slalom Convertible which will carry a big sail and a high-aspect foil so the Sealion will be for Windsup/Surfsup. Construction is flat out gorgeous by the way.

Hello Awalkspoiled

Did you test the sealion at windfoiling? Very interested in knowing your opinion in these possible applications of this board: float&ride wavesailing, windfoiling, wingfoiling and supsurfing.

Thanks.

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Mucel said..

Awalkspoiled said..

thedoor said..
Not sure I fully understand what you are saying. But in my opinion you do not want to have the foil mast and the sail mast too close together. So I would prefer to have the foil track back and not have much of a kick tail

That's definitely the trend, but then there are setups like the Sealion, where the max distance from mast to front Tuttle bolt is only 30.5" and there's really a LOT of rocker. Mine arrived yesterday and there's no wind forecast until Sunday but I'll report back once I've tried it. Going to surf-SUP it this morning. Seems to be optimized for sailing lightly powered on a big wing. I have a big Foil/Slalom Convertible which will carry a big sail and a high-aspect foil so the Sealion will be for Windsup/Surfsup. Construction is flat out gorgeous by the way.

Hello Awalkspoiled

Did you test the sealion at windfoiling? Very interested in knowing your opinion in these possible applications of this board: float&ride wavesailing, windfoiling, wingfoiling and supsurfing.

Thanks.

I'll post a more complete review probably next Sunday or Monday - we're forecast to have wind this weekend. Briefly, though, when very powered up with my huge 2000cm Tillo/Taaroa wing on a 95cm fuselage, it was very difficult to windfoil. The mastfoot and foil are so close together that as soon as I was foiling I was fighting a breach, and couldn't apply enough mastfoot pressure to keep the nose down. It was better when I set the stab for less lift, but still porpoised much more than I'm used to. With the deep Tuttle box there's no option to move the foil back, so after talking with Alex at Tillo, who is familiar with the Sealion, we agreed that the best move to start with would be to use shorter, 75cm fuse which will move the foil back about 8cm. That fuse arrived yesterday and I'll try it when there's wind. We did also consider using a smaller front wing which was my first idea and may be where I end up, but the shorter fuse will be the first tweak. I'm hoping that the shorter overall length doesn't make the whole thing too height-unstable. No doubt it'll take a while to tune the stab.

Otherwise, the board is great. Easy to SUP and surprisingly fast and directionally steady when flat-water paddling (I'm not an experienced paddleboarder). Easy to ride mushy Gulf coast surf when paddling and you could probably paddle it prone too, like a longboard. Insanely easy to float and ride Windsup in small onshore waves - you pump onto the wave and then you can just let the sail flag and surf the thing if you want to. It's slashy and fun and there's no tendency to trip or pearl. So far I've only been out in 8kt with a 5.8 but I'll try in more wind once we get out of the Florida doldrum weather.

I've also tried it in light wind with a weed fin in the Tuttle box to go along with the twin fins, in which configuration it points really well and is fun for longboard-style freestyling. With just the twin fins in flat water you need to be well powered up to get the board to plane because there really is a lot of rocker.

So far I haven't been in any situation where I miss the footstraps at all. I can't comment on wingfoiling - I don't do that yet - but I'll lend the board to someone this weekend if I can to get their thoughts.

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Awalkspoiled said..

Mucel said..

Awalkspoiled said..

thedoor said..
Not sure I fully understand what you are saying. But in my opinion you do not want to have the foil mast and the sail mast too close together. So I would prefer to have the foil track back and not have much of a kick tail

That's definitely the trend, but then there are setups like the Sealion, where the max distance from mast to front Tuttle bolt is only 30.5" and there's really a LOT of rocker. Mine arrived yesterday and there's no wind forecast until Sunday but I'll report back once I've tried it. Going to surf-SUP it this morning. Seems to be optimized for sailing lightly powered on a big wing. I have a big Foil/Slalom Convertible which will carry a big sail and a high-aspect foil so the Sealion will be for Windsup/Surfsup. Construction is flat out gorgeous by the way.

Hello Awalkspoiled

Did you test the sealion at windfoiling? Very interested in knowing your opinion in these possible applications of this board: float&ride wavesailing, windfoiling, wingfoiling and supsurfing.

Thanks.

I'll post a more complete review probably next Sunday or Monday - we're forecast to have wind this weekend. Briefly, though, when very powered up with my huge 2000cm Tillo/Taaroa wing on a 95cm fuselage, it was very difficult to windfoil. The mastfoot and foil are so close together that as soon as I was foiling I was fighting a breach, and couldn't apply enough mastfoot pressure to keep the nose down. It was better when I set the stab for less lift, but still porpoised much more than I'm used to. With the deep Tuttle box there's no option to move the foil back, so after talking with Alex at Tillo, who is familiar with the Sealion, we agreed that the best move to start with would be to use shorter, 75cm fuse which will move the foil back about 8cm. That fuse arrived yesterday and I'll try it when there's wind. We did also consider using a smaller front wing which was my first idea and may be where I end up, but the shorter fuse will be the first tweak. I'm hoping that the shorter overall length doesn't make the whole thing too height-unstable. No doubt it'll take a while to tune the stab.

Otherwise, the board is great. Easy to SUP and surprisingly fast and directionally steady when flat-water paddling (I'm not an experienced paddleboarder). Easy to ride mushy Gulf coast surf when paddling and you could probably paddle it prone too, like a longboard. Insanely easy to float and ride Windsup in small onshore waves - you pump onto the wave and then you can just let the sail flag and surf the thing if you want to. It's slashy and fun and there's no tendency to trip or pearl. So far I've only been out in 8kt with a 5.8 but I'll try in more wind once we get out of the Florida doldrum weather.

I've also tried it in light wind with a weed fin in the Tuttle box to go along with the twin fins, in which configuration it points really well and is fun for longboard-style freestyling. With just the twin fins in flat water you need to be well powered up to get the board to plane because there really is a lot of rocker.

So far I haven't been in any situation where I miss the footstraps at all. I can't comment on wingfoiling - I don't do that yet - but I'll lend the board to someone this weekend if I can to get their thoughts.

Thanks Awalkspoiled. Maybe you could install a double usbox where you prefer to beable to move the foil, apart from the tuttle box. Based on my experience I don't recommend you a shorter fuse as beginner, It was very difficult with a 71 cm one and I improved the stability a lot when I changed to a 81 cm one.

I saw a video of Bruno Andre saying the sail base must be right in front of the track for windfoiling. Where did you put it? in my case I also go strapless winddfoiling and it's easier for me to prevent the breach stepping forward, close to the sail base. My front wing is 1600 cm2 and I weight 69 kg.

The bigger Sealion with straps would be very appealing. I created a mount to put straps in the wavesailing position on my Hypernut and I also prefer windfoiling with my feet basically on center, although I only put my toes in when foiling.
I'm still getting comfortable with the Hypernut in waves but it seems to need quite a lot of power, wave or wind, to get going. Certainly it's not riding unbroken waves like you'd expect from a longer windSUP and I haven't gotten my positioning figured out well enough to really crank on a wave at all. More like gentle cutbacks and going down the line at this point. I may try some smaller rear fins since planing is not in the equation.

Most of these boards have the foil mount much too far forward for windfoiling. Sunova is about the only one to get it right:
sunovasurfboards.com/en/wind/windsurf/foilboard-4in1

If I had the money they'd be getting it. An extra 15L over my Hypernut would make for a better board in many ways and I think their pulled in tail might surf a bit easier.

Mucel.....you are missing a few things....
Lots of good windfoilers, 65-70 kg, use their 85-90 liter windsurf boards for windfoil in 10-17 knot breeze and 4.5 sails. Those boards are narrower than 62 cm wide. Most Powerbox with NP.
Your Papenoo problem is that you tried a surf fuze, but need to use a windsurf fuze.
Thin tails need foil front foil located forward.
Thick tails need foil back.

Hi Leed
Unfortunately my skill and point of view are far from those guys with small windfoiling boards pumping like beasts. My focus is enjoy as much as possible of waves and wind in a confortable way. This sport is complex enough to make things more difficult/demanding on your own (IMO).

For example, now we have big wavesailing boards which turn very well, easier to uphaul and shlog. And there are supsurfing boards which are stables and turn well in small to medium size waves, at the same time.

Regarding the papenoo you are saying what I thought, the boards with thin tails (crossovers) need to put the foil more forward. That's why the naish crossover is a good windfoiling board and papenoo not. In this way you have a surfing thin tail for supsurfing and wavesailing and an advanced foil for windfoiling, but the board must be long enough, which is not good for winging. Sealion could be another good option. For windfoiling I prefer strapless to move feet to prevent breaching and get upwind. For wavesailing in such big boards footstraps can be avoided aswell.

Now I see more difficult for a supsurfing board to be a good performance float&ride wavesailing board. If it's good for supsurfing the rocker will be too much for wavesailing, and the opposite is sealion case, which has a rocker better for wavesailing than supsurfing.

Cheers

If you make a board wide enough to be stable and still want it to turn then it needs rocker. No mystery or free lunch in board shapes.

It's also a mistake to think you want the foil mast forward on a crossover (or any windfoil board), what you want is the wing in the right place.
Moving the mast forward to achieve that leads to less stability. Keeping the mast back and using a longer fuselage does the opposite.

The thing I've found with my Hypernut is that you have to be on the tail rocker a bit to get it going with the foil. I've run the foil on a long enough fuselage to be able to fly with my feet in the position where they are slogging, but it was slower to foil because I didn't have the rocker flat to the water. From what I've read they need a heavy back foot stop to get them to accelerate on a wave too, so that is something I'll need to work on wavesailing since I tend to ride that board overtop of it's volume which might be causing it's stickiness catching waves.
The Hypernut has quite a strange bottom shape however with a central channel that has more rocker and less towards the rails.

I have a custom board that has the shape of the Papenoo 7'11 but all the inserts for foiling are refined and optimized.
Especially the rear DT-box is build in the board INCLINED forward so the fuselage is parallel to the rocker under the front strap, this incline compensates the rocker (and solves all the above discussed issues).
The DT and strap positions allow the use of a dedicated windfoil with high aspect wings (Aeromod LW in my case).
The US foilboxes could be used for WWF, Supfoiling or winging, i've used a Moses 873 LA-foil for it.

I also did learn winging with the board, so does my son now, but i'm now on dedicated wingboard, which is a huge improvement, once you reach a higher level at winging.

The two boards below have the same shape and details, just a different technology and weight, first 10,6 kg, second 9,1 kg, the second board is my current one which i sell once my son has mastered the winging beginner phase.
The third is one of my wing boards.

Mucel is missing the point.
Needs ws fuselage to move front foil forward.
Simple.