The light wind season has not started but there was a preview today with the wind shifting and an 8 to 10-knot wind. On a Facebook group, I saw some pictures of a rider on the same Lake foiling. He was on an 8.4 (Severne Foil Glide 2) I did not want to hassle them anymore on board size, foil size, riders weight etc... But I did start thinking what is the maximum size sail that can be used on a foil?
I presume that If it was a regular fin it would be until the fin can no longer take the pressure and you get spin out etc.
Or maybe the question is wrong and it should be what is the minimum size sail that is needed to get the board off the water.
When you rig up how do you decide on what sail you are going to rig?
I am new to foiling and last season I was just taking my biggest sail but this season I might be able to afford to go out and get something a little bigger. What stops you from taking out a bigger sail? Is it a weight or speed issue?
Would you prefer to use a bigger foil and a smaller sail or visa versa?
Currently, I have a 7.8 and a 6.3 camber sails, Naish crossover 120 and a Malolo 1056 cm2 and I am 90kg.
I know that my questions can be answered over time and experience but I would really like to hear from your own experiences.
Also, what are the absolute minimum conditions that you can go out in? And what gear are you using?
Thank you very much.

Clearly there is an inverse relationship between foil area and sail area.

I imagine that if you progressively went smaller and smaller (lower lift to speed ratio) with the foil you would eventually need a sail that is equivalent to that needed for a fin. However, for most people riding freeride foils there is a point where more sail becomes a hindrance, because the added weight does not produce a meaningful increase in the ability to get going but once you are up, you are overpowered by the sail and get destroyed.

For very light air it seems you need either a massive freeride foil/medium sail (eg 6m) or a massive sail 8+m and race foil. Either of these two combos will likely get you going a couple knots earlier than the medium freeride foil/medium sail.

The massive freeride foil/medium sail combo is less effort than race gear, but I believe it becomes overpowered more easily when the wind picks up, the race gear on the other hand seems to be able to hand a pretty wide wind range.

I was told that faster foils allow people to carry more sail without feeling as overpowered, whereas slower foils that have speed limits prevent larger sails from going as fast as they need too to work efficiently.....seems to make sense

Thedoor pretty much covered it but I'll add that larger sails need a wider board to manage the leverage.

Get a bigger front wing and you will enjoy more stable rides with smaller sails, which is more fun. I ride the Naish with 1150 to 1800 wings, most used sails 5.7 and 4.7 camless. Larger sails feel heavy and harder to jibe.

For 8-10 knots I used to use a Aerotech non- cambered 9.0 freespeed sail with an AFS Wind95 foil and F1080 front wing, but that 9.0 took a 490 mast and larger boom which along with the sail added weight. Now I use a 8.0 Freespeed sail, same foil/wing, but 460 mast and smaller boom, get up in a minimum of 8-9 knots all on a Goya Bolt 135 slalom board, that longer board glides good through chop to get my speed up, a short blunt nosed foil board would make it harder for me I think, but I have not tried one.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..
Clearly there is an inverse relationship between foil area and sail area.

I imagine that if you progressively went smaller and smaller (lower lift to speed ratio) with the foil you would eventually need a sail that is equivalent to that needed for a fin. However, for most people riding freeride foils there is a point where more sail becomes a hindrance, because the added weight does not produce a meaningful increase in the ability to get going but once you are up, you are overpowered by the sail and get destroyed.

For very light air it seems you need either a massive freeride foil/medium sail (eg 6m) or a massive sail 8+m and race foil. Either of these two combos will likely get you going a couple knots earlier than the medium freeride foil/medium sail.

The massive freeride foil/medium sail combo is less effort than race gear, but I believe it becomes overpowered more easily when the wind picks up, the race gear on the other hand seems to be able to hand a pretty wide wind range.

I was told that faster foils allow people to carry more sail without feeling as overpowered, whereas slower foils that have speed limits prevent larger sails from going as fast as they need too to work efficiently.....seems to make sense

Thank you for the available information. So it looks like there are two distinct styles of windsurf foiling then. I think with my current setup that puts me into the non-racing foiling. The fella yesterday would have been on race gear which is why he was taking advantage of a larger sail.

Select to expand quote

powersloshin said..
Get a bigger front wing and you will enjoy more stable rides with smaller sails, which is more fun. I ride the Naish with 1150 to 1800 wings, most used sails 5.7 and 4.7 camless. Larger sails feel heavy and harder to jibe.

After what thedoor, Grantmac, and yourself are saying, I think you are right. Better to invest in a foil that produces a more stable lift at lower speeds and save my back from any long term pain. And of course, stay out on the water for longer.
Powersloshin 4.7, 1800 what is the minimum wind that you need to get going ?
Is 1800 enough or did you think about purchasing the xl 2000 ?

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..
For 8-10 knots I used to use a Aerotech non- cambered 9.0 freespeed sail with an AFS Wind95 foil and F1080 front wing, but that 9.0 took a 490 mast and larger boom which along with the sail added weight. Now I use a 8.0 Freespeed sail, same foil/wing, but 460 mast and smaller boom, get up in a minimum of 8-9 knots all on a Goya Bolt 135 slalom board, that longer board glides good through chop to get my speed up, a short blunt nosed foil board would make it harder for me I think, but I have not tried one.

Sandman1221 you seem to be all over this forum. I went and looked up your kit, looks absolutely splendid. I think this season will be just to get this kit going. Put a couple of dings in the nose and try not to put any holes in me or the sail. Like all man activities, I will try to get the hang of it and then of course try to do it faster. What is the max wind speed that you can handle with that setup ? At that max speed what do you have to "fight" to keep under control?

Select to expand quote

powersloshin said..
Get a bigger front wing and you will enjoy more stable rides with smaller sails, which is more fun. I ride the Naish with 1150 to 1800 wings, most used sails 5.7 and 4.7 camless. Larger sails feel heavy and harder to jibe.

I was just looking around the net. The foil that you have is it the JET H.A. 1800 ?

Select to expand quote

Henners said..

Sandman1221 said..
For 8-10 knots I used to use a Aerotech non- cambered 9.0 freespeed sail with an AFS Wind95 foil and F1080 front wing, but that 9.0 took a 490 mast and larger boom which along with the sail added weight. Now I use a 8.0 Freespeed sail, same foil/wing, but 460 mast and smaller boom, get up in a minimum of 8-9 knots all on a Goya Bolt 135 slalom board, that longer board glides good through chop to get my speed up, a short blunt nosed foil board would make it harder for me I think, but I have not tried one.

Sandman1221 you seem to be all over this forum. I went and looked up your kit, looks absolutely splendid. I think this season will be just to get this kit going. Put a couple of dings in the nose and try not to put any holes in me or the sail. Like all man activities, I will try to get the hang of it and then of course try to do it faster. What is the max wind speed that you can handle with that setup ? At that max speed what do you have to "fight" to keep under control?

Hey Henners, check out my custom nose guard post, easy to make and can take a hit. Take 8.0 to 10-11 knots max, use the Freespeed 7.2 from 10 to 14 knots max, put Freespeed 5.8 on around 14-15 with the F1080 or F770 wing depending on the gust peaks, once it is solid 15+ use 5.8 with F770 wing, always using one stab. shim for all sail/wing combos. Have had 5.8 up to 22 knots, gotta be careful then! Been thinking of getting smaller sail, but that would require shorter mast and maybe boom too. Right now, use the 3 sails with a 460 mast and 160-220 boom, makes things easy!

No fighting with the wind pressure on the sail using those ranges BUT that includes using appropriate downhaul and outhaul, except taking 5.8 to 22 around there you have to be careful if gusts are coming in over 22. Using 460 mast on the 5.8 probably helps since it is stiffer than a 430, that prevents sail from catching some of the wind.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..

Henners said..

Sandman1221 said..
For 8-10 knots I used to use a Aerotech non- cambered 9.0 freespeed sail with an AFS Wind95 foil and F1080 front wing, but that 9.0 took a 490 mast and larger boom which along with the sail added weight. Now I use a 8.0 Freespeed sail, same foil/wing, but 460 mast and smaller boom, get up in a minimum of 8-9 knots all on a Goya Bolt 135 slalom board, that longer board glides good through chop to get my speed up, a short blunt nosed foil board would make it harder for me I think, but I have not tried one.

Sandman1221 you seem to be all over this forum. I went and looked up your kit, looks absolutely splendid. I think this season will be just to get this kit going. Put a couple of dings in the nose and try not to put any holes in me or the sail. Like all man activities, I will try to get the hang of it and then of course try to do it faster. What is the max wind speed that you can handle with that setup ? At that max speed what do you have to "fight" to keep under control?

Hey Henners, check out my custom nose guard post, easy to make and can take a hit. Take 8.0 to 10-11 knots max, use the Freespeed 7.2 from 10 to 14 knots max, put Freespeed 5.8 on around 14-15 with the F1080 or F770 wing depending on the gust peaks, once it is solid 15+ use 5.8 with F770 wing, always using one stab. shim for all sail/wing combos. Have had 5.8 up to 22 knots, gotta be careful then! Been thinking of getting smaller sail, but that would require shorter mast and maybe boom too. Right now, use the 3 sails with a 460 mast and 160-220 boom, makes things easy!

No fighting with the wind pressure on the sail using those ranges BUT that includes using appropriate downhaul and outhaul, except taking 5.8 to 22 around there you have to be careful if gusts are coming in over 22. Using 460 mast on the 5.8 probably helps since it is stiffer than a 430, that prevents sail from catching some of the wind.

That is helpful to me also. I'm starting out and wind ranges vs. sail selection is challenging

Adding to all the great info you got from the others, lighter rigs etc...I find that the biggest size sail I use for foiling is the sail that I can pump the hell out of. I found that I can get going in very similar wind strength and potentially even less with a 6.5m vs a 8m because I can pump the 6.5 and still have energy and balance to pump the board/foil at the same time. Then I can have longer, more fun session without getting exhausted from dealing with the big rig...

When I was starting out foiling I used 5.5, 6.3 & 7m slalom sails in 10-15 knots and didn't foil outside this range...

Then as I advanced into up/down wind racing I started using my larger 7.7 and 9.0 slalom sails until I got the full on foil racing sails, first the 8.0 & 10.0 Loft SkyBlades and finally 8,9&10 Phantoms.
For upwind racing you need the 10 for 6-15+ and the 9 to about 22 then the 8. It makes NO sense to use these big sails across the wind!

For slalom style sailing I typically use half to one metre less than the racing crowd ... and have about 10kt lower board speed

Except when their not planing and then I'm 10kts faster

Dedicated foil designs without the boom cutout and large floppy leach are easier to pump!

Select to expand quote

Henners said..

I was just looking around the net. The foil that you have is it the JET H.A. 1800 ?

Yes it is. I use the 1800 with 5.7 and 6.6 sails get going in about 8-10 knots. I use the 4.7 with 1150 or 1400 wings in 12 to 22 knts.

I've retired all my big sails. Max sail I use is a 5.8 Duotone foil sail. If the wind is light I go with my SS 99 wing, if it picks up I can still keep my 5.8 and go to my H4. The H4 is a great deal of fun and very controllable.

The older I get the less desire I have to deal with the giant 9.0 sails. I find the if I have a big wing I can get going with some pumps in light wind.

DC

Saved up and got some second-hand kit off seabreeze. I went out on a 2020 Naish 1800 7.8 racesail in about 15 knots. I GOT FLYING!!! Semi stable flight and I did go skew-whiff a few times. I was over the board and I was very careful with my weight. I just could not keep myself committed to the harness and ended up controlling the sail with bent arms. The first couple of times I got up, I think I forgot to breathe.
It is going to take time to find a comfortable position, harness line length, boom height etc.. to really commit myself to the harness and stay upright. Pumping was crappy as well, every time I was pumping, I could not keep the board level on the water. Might be the style of sail but I will just have to make do.
Thanks to everyone, I think it is going to be a good off-season after all.

Select to expand quote

Henners said..
Saved up and got some second-hand kit off seabreeze. I went out on a 2020 Naish 1800 7.8 racesail in about 15 knots. I GOT FLYING!!! Semi stable flight and I did go skew-whiff a few times. I was over the board and I was very careful with my weight. I just could not keep myself committed to the harness and ended up controlling the sail with bent arms. The first couple of times I got up, I think I forgot to breathe.
It is going to take time to find a comfortable position, harness line length, boom height etc.. to really commit myself to the harness and stay upright. Pumping was crappy as well, every time I was pumping, I could not keep the board level on the water. Might be the style of sail but I will just have to make do.
Thanks to everyone, I think it is going to be a good off-season after all.

Nice, now it's just TOW. The key thing to focus on is finding the right balance between the foil position, universal position and front strap position. Then you will start messing with our outhaul and downhaul to find which settings you prefer for foiling.

15 knots is a lot of wind.
At 72 kgs., I'd be flying on Supersport 109 and 7.0 sail. Maybe 24 knot boatspeed.
Or not needing to pump with a 4.5, 1150 foil, and 122 Naish. Maybe 17 knot boatspeed.

Select to expand quote

Henners said..
Saved up and got some second-hand kit off seabreeze. I went out on a 2020 Naish 1800 7.8 racesail in about 15 knots. I GOT FLYING!!! Semi stable flight and I did go skew-whiff a few times. I was over the board and I was very careful with my weight. I just could not keep myself committed to the harness and ended up controlling the sail with bent arms. The first couple of times I got up, I think I forgot to breathe.
It is going to take time to find a comfortable position, harness line length, boom height etc.. to really commit myself to the harness and stay upright.

Regarding the stability, check the length of your fuselage. The 1800 was often sold with a 65 cm fuselage. The newer S26 fuselages for windsurfing were 80 and 95 cm long. The longer fuses give you more up & down stability. The shorter fuses are better for carving hard if you have the required skills. If you have a short fuselage, upgrading to a longer one may make your life easier, if you can fine one that fits.

Regarding the stance, keep in mind that the stance depends on the kind of foiling you do. In freeride foiling (large wing, small to medium sail), you're usually very much over the board. On faster foils (large sail, small and fast foil), you do hang out quite a bit, although still not as much as when finning. Your setup is a bit of a mix - a freeride foil with a large-ish race sail, so you may hang out a bit more than if you were using a smaller sail (in 15 knots, a 5.6 m freeride/freestyle sail should be plenty). Mast length dictates how much you can hang out. A short mast (75 cm or shorter) requires a more upright position, otherwise you put too much sideways pressure on the foil, and it skids to the side (a bit like a spinout on a fin). Longer masts allow you to hang out more.

Given your setup, you must have been a bit overpowered in 15 knots. That's ok when you are still working on getting to fly, but being overpowered makes it harder to get a level flight, especially in gusty winds.

Thanks again everyone. I have reread the comments a few times and really I have a lot to work with.
I have been watching a few videos on how to pump correctly so I can achieve a decent speed to get me out of the water.
Once I was out of the water the sail size was not overpowered but I was not efficient with the sail power bend arms not using harness etc..
The mast is 65cm so I am going to see if I can get something a little longer but for now I will keep trying with the shorter length. I did find a thread from last year about fuselages (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Surf-foil-for-windfoiling?page=1) and watched a few of the videos of these wild Frenchman playing around.
I have an old 5m wave sail lying around so if the wind is a little bit more consistent I will give that a go. I also have an even older 6.4 sail which is not loose leech which might be worth a try.

Select to expand quote

Henners said..
Thanks again everyone. I have reread the comments a few times and really I have a lot to work with.
I have been watching a few videos on how to pump correctly so I can achieve a decent speed to get me out of the water.
Once I was out of the water the sail size was not overpowered but I was not efficient with the sail power bend arms not using harness etc..
The mast is 65cm so I am going to see if I can get something a little longer but for now I will keep trying with the shorter length. I did find a thread from last year about fuselages (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Surf-foil-for-windfoiling?page=1) and watched a few of the videos of these wild Frenchman playing around.
I have an old 5m wave sail lying around so if the wind is a little bit more consistent I will give that a go. I also have an even older 6.4 sail which is not loose leech which might be worth a try.

Get a longer foil mast when it's in the budget. Flying a 65 is actually harder because there's so fine a line between touching water and being too high - and that's on relatively flat water. Ideally, 85-95 although you'd feel more comfortable on an 85 as a learning foiler. I moved to 95s when I got tired of foiling out especially in jibes in chop/swell.

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..

Henners said..
Thanks again everyone. I have reread the comments a few times and really I have a lot to work with.
I have been watching a few videos on how to pump correctly so I can achieve a decent speed to get me out of the water.
Once I was out of the water the sail size was not overpowered but I was not efficient with the sail power bend arms not using harness etc..
The mast is 65cm so I am going to see if I can get something a little longer but for now I will keep trying with the shorter length. I did find a thread from last year about fuselages (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Surf-foil-for-windfoiling?page=1) and watched a few of the videos of these wild Frenchman playing around.
I have an old 5m wave sail lying around so if the wind is a little bit more consistent I will give that a go. I also have an even older 6.4 sail which is not loose leech which might be worth a try.

Get a longer foil mast when it's in the budget. Flying a 65 is actually harder because there's so fine a line between touching water and being too high - and that's on relatively flat water. Ideally, 85-95 although you'd feel more comfortable on an 85 as a learning foiler. I moved to 95s when I got tired of foiling out especially in jibes in chop/swell.

Sorry Paducah, I made a mistake. The fuselage is 65cm. The mast is 75cm. But anyway the mast is a little bit on the short side. I will also be on the lookout for a longer mast.

Select to expand quote

Henners said..

Sorry Paducah, I made a mistake. The fuselage is 65cm. The mast is 75cm. But anyway the mast is a little bit on the short side. I will also be on the lookout for a longer mast.

No worries.

(Worst part about having to use the 65 is I still found something on the bottom and bashed both board and foil wing. )

Select to expand quote

Henners said..
The fuselage is 65cm. The mast is 75cm. But anyway the mast is a little bit on the short side. I will also be on the lookout for a longer mast.

Definitely try to get a longer fuselage. At your current level, it will make a bigger difference than a longer mast. I often sail with a 71 cm mast, and it's not bad. I prefer a 90 cm mast for the reasons Paducah mentioned, but our tides are often too low for the longer mast. Mast lengths below 70 cm get quite tricky.
Keep the shorter fuse for the time when your skills have improved. Once you learned how to control flight height, the shorter fuse can give you better carves.