Hi legends
quick bio.
50yrs old, 90kgs, long time windsurfer, new windsurf foiler.
been up on the foil for a couple of months now and getting longer and longer flights but maintaining ride height is a constant battle, ie all the way up and all the way down.
kit, Fanatic stingray 140, fanatic 3.0 foil, 1250 front wing, 90 mast, 90 fuse.
any pro tips greatly appreciated.
Thanks from Adelaide SA, Mick.

It's all in the hips. Rock your hips backward and forward to adjust flight height. Forward to lower, back to raise. The adjustment is more subtle, which reduces the yoyo effect. It becomes second nature after a session or two.

If you are staring at the nose of the board, don't. Make sure you are looking up and out. Your peripheral vision will tell you if you are high enough, too high, etc. but looking down doesn't let you steady things out.

Also, there is a tendency to move hands/harness lines forward when starting out because of the reduced sail pressure and then when you are powered up, there's more back hand pressure. Variations in back hand pressure will tend to make you porpoise (that's one reason foil sails tend to have shorter boom lengths). If your hands/harness aren't in a balanced position, move them a bit back.

Just noticed your profile pic - for starting out, there are no extra points for riding high. Pick a height that's comfortable - say 10-20 cm out of the water. For someone in your place on the learning curve, it will have you constantly worried about foiling out.

And, as mentioned above, the hips.

Look out at the horizon, never look down. Be mindful that every thing you do to the sail (trim, ease,change course) affects mast foot preasure. The mast foot preasure is on a longer lever than your body weight so it has a big affect. Learning all the subtle moves to make with your sail and body weight takes Time on the Water.

I could save myself a f*** ton of time and just let utcminusfour write my posts...

OP wrote: "kit, Fanatic stingray 140, fanatic 3.0 foil, 1250 front wing, 90 mast, 90 fuse." That's good gear. I also have the Stingray 140.

I presume you are using the plate mount instead of the tuttle. If so, you can adjust fore and aft to balance the front wing under your feet. Try removing the footstraps and just find the sweet spot for your feet.

Yes, don't look down. Most of foiling is by feel. You will get there. Lots of time on foil is necessary. It sure took me a lot of TOF to get it.

Have fun.

If you come from windsurfing, you're used to evening out chop with your legs. It's automatic - you feel the board move up, and your knees automatically bend.

That kills steady flights in foiling. Even little bits of chop will move you up and down on the foil, and your knees automatically want to adjust. But on the foil, everything is much more sensitive to weight shifts than with a board on the water. So you over-correct, and the board goes up and down.

Some windsurfers very quickly adapt, and simply stand still, with minimal adjustments. Many don't. The best advice I have heard was to keep your legs extended, "knee caps pushed backwards", as Sam Ross describes it. It can feel scary at first if you go over chop and think you have to adjust, but unless the chop gets larger than maybe half a meter and/or very steep, you really don't have to adjust at all.

Here's the video where Sam Ross explains this (and a few other things, like long arms and a steady sail): ?list=PLP7KGVZy0gFSyhgcUVkqS4_nSAlkFnaiW

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boardsurfr said..If you come from windsurfing, you're used to evening out chop with your legs. It's automatic - you feel the board move up, and your knees automatically bend.
That kills steady flights in foiling. Even little bits of chop will move you up and down on the foil, and your knees automatically want to adjust. But on the foil, everything is much more sensitive to weight shifts than with a board on the water. So you over-correct, and the board goes up and down.
Some windsurfers very quickly adapt, and simply stand still, with minimal adjustments. Many don't. The best advice I have heard was to keep your legs extended, "knee caps pushed backwards", as Sam Ross describes it. It can feel scary at first if you go over chop and think you have to adjust, but unless the chop gets larger than maybe half a meter and/or very steep, you really don't have to adjust at all.

I have to flex my legs in chop - allowing them to act as a kind of suspension.
I don't think I could have kept the foil in the water if I'd locked out my back leg.
Maybe that's flat water racefoil technique?

In the beginning I was moving the whole rig with my hands forward to fly lower or back to get height. Then I learned to use the harness and it made flights a lot more stable. It takes a lot of sessions to develop the new muscle memory, but the first step is to balance your mast foot, straps and foil.

Thanks everyone awesome advice, much appreciated.

For me, moving the uj back towards my feet lessened the exaggerated mast pressure as the sail loaded up to prevent porpoising. But it's also about balancing the forces, (front foot,back foot,mast base) that comes with tow/musle memory). If I feel I'm going to foil out in a jibe, I sheet in hard to drive the nose back down.
The larger the sail, the more downforce at the uj,and compensation needed.

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azymuth said..

...Maybe that's flat water racefoil technique?

I puzzled over that one, too, for a bit knowing how sore my legs are the next day after a hard session. As well, I see some of my local intermediates struggle in windy conditions because they are locked and can't bend the legs and depower. And, I remember seeing NG in a recent video bending at the knees (pic below 19:19 in the recent Phantom promo vid as a quick example. Also look at 1:35)

I see where Sam Ross is coming from, though. It's probably good advice to those starting out to get them more upright, over the board and to combat what probably feels like a squirrely board that responds way more to foot steering than they would think an 80cm wide board would do. All the same, Sam Ross is a better foiler than I'll ever be so I'm going to try to experiment a bit with it next flat water session and see what comes of it. For gusty winds and non-flat water, bending knees will still be in the tool kit for me.

Sam Ross does advice to bend the knees in the more advanced videos (going faster and going upwind). But he points out that bending does not mean they should be flexible - their are stilled mostly locked. The high level foil racers often have their legs bent almost 90 degrees, but there is still very little movement.

For many people starting out, over-correcting is a big problem initially that leads to dolphin rides and catapults. That's especially a problem with windsurfers used to sailing in chop, where the normal way is to flex your knees over every single piece of chop. It's not true for all windsurfers - some, especially freestylers and longboard racers, are used to sailing with fully extended legs even in chop. But for most of us, it's natural to even out the chop with the legs on a windsurfer, and to try to do the same with a foil. But on the foil, it is not necessary of the chop is smaller than the mast height. Any higher, and you may need to compensate. You can still compensate if it's lower, but for most windsurfers, that is a lot harder to learn than just keeping the legs straight. Once you have enough TOW to know when you don't have to compensate, you can pick up more sail pressure by bending the knees (but keeping them rigid).

Not sure if it will help... but I did a short video on 'standing still' while foiling

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boardsurfr said..
For many people starting out, over-correcting is a big problem initially that leads to dolphin rides and catapults.

Fully agree, as I've gotten faster and more stable I definately notice smaller corrections. Experience and ToW definately help!

Thanks again everyone,

I took my new board out yesterday a Slingshot wizard 130.
the boards brilliant but I had an absolute shocker training to maintain ride height and had lots of foil outs and nose dives.
I did have a few longer rides but the length of those is purely dictated by how long it takes for me to either nose dive or foil out.
a couple of points based on your advice. I am not in the harness lines and am certainly guilty of moving the rig around.
also I am holding the boom very very close to the mast probably to depower the sail. anyway certainly work to be done at my end.
thanks for sharing the videos of yourself holding decent ride height. It's very inspiring.
thanks again Mick

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Northern Monkey said..
I took my new board out yesterday a Slingshot wizard 130.
the boards brilliant but I had an absolute shocker training to maintain ride height and had lots of foil outs and nose dives.
I did have a few longer rides but the length of those is purely dictated by how long it takes for me to either nose dive or foil out.
a couple of points based on your advice. I am not in the harness lines and am certainly guilty of moving the rig around.
also I am holding the boom very very close to the mast probably to depower the sail. anyway certainly work to be done at my end.
thanks for sharing the videos of yourself holding decent ride height. It's very inspiring.
thanks again Mick

Are you using about 1.5 m2 less than you would for a fin or the same sail size as a fin? Sounds like you are powered to overpowered which is hard when you are starting out. Learn to feather the power gently. If you are constantly sheeting in and out with the back hand, that pressure is going through the back foot which makes you go up and down.

I am running much smaller sails than if I was on a fin. At least 1.5m less

Does anyone think a shorter mast would help ? It says above he uses 90cm. I was thinking a 75cm mast and mabey use smaller size sails than currently using at given wind speeds. This will result in riding lower and slower, and in my opinion make things easier and allow for more concentration and mabey awareness of what you are doing and when you are doing it ?

To have an indication if your rig is balanced:
- Front wing center should be about midway from front and rear strap positions (you can get rid of the rear straps, will make things easier)
- you should be able to gain a bit of speed semi planing and then with a little push of the back foot start flying, if you need to push hard and need to keep pushing the back foot to maintain flight, move the sail mast foot or/and straps further back
- If instead the board tends to fly too high and it is difficult to keep it lower, do the opposite

It is easier to maintain steady flights going slightly upwind, than being powered up on a broad reach.

Hi all, does the board length/width make it easier or hard to learn foiling? Still learning on a 5 in 1 sup and struggling with anything over 10-15 kts with a 5.3. I know, more TOW but I want it now!

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kato said..
Hi all, does the board length/width make it easier or hard to learn foiling? Still learning on a 5 in 1 sup and struggling with anything over 10-15 kts with a 5.3. I know, more TOW but I want it now!

Board width definitely makes learning easier. I have seen several beginners on formula boards get good rides in their first session. It's quite possible to learn on narrower boards, but they tend to be more nervous and sensitive to adjustments.

Longer boards can make both recovery from breaching and touch downs a lot easier, although that depends on the bottom shape, too. On my 228 cm long foil board (Stingray), breaches are usually just a hard slapdown on the water. With a shorter (but still relatively long) "3-in-1" board I used, they were serious catapults. With a couple of windsurf boards of similar length to the Stingray, it could go either way.

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Sambo # said..
Does anyone think a shorter mast would help ? It says above he uses 90cm. I was thinking a 75cm mast and mabey use smaller size sails than currently using at given wind speeds. This will result in riding lower and slower, and in my opinion make things easier and allow for more concentration and mabey awareness of what you are doing and when you are doing it ?

I agree that shorter masts could help. The first goal should be controlled takeoffs, followed by gently guiding the board back onto the water, to learn the basics of flight height control. That does not require or benefit from a longer mast. But shorter masts make breaches easier to recover from since the board comes down at a lower angle, and is less likely to nose dive. Fewer crashes translates to more time spend on the board instead of in the water, and thus faster learning.

For many beginners, shorter masts also reduce the fear factor due to the lower ride (and crash) height.

After learning the basics of controlling flight height, a longer mast can make life easier, though, since it gives more time to make the necessary adjustments. The effect of going from a 70 cm mast to an 85 cm mast is much larger than the difference in mast length suggests.

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Sambo # said..
Does anyone think a shorter mast would help ? It says above he uses 90cm. I was thinking a 75cm mast and mabey use smaller size sails than currently using at given wind speeds. This will result in riding lower and slower, and in my opinion make things easier and allow for more concentration and mabey awareness of what you are doing and when you are doing it ?

imho, only for the first handful of flights but then it becomes a hindrance. For the first few because it minimizes the "oh, sh**" moments of climbing too quickly and foiling out which is common.

After that, I think it makes it harder because your height management has to be so on point to avoid constantly foiling out. It's better to have a bit of range to go up and down without constantly being on the edge of foiling out.

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Northern Monkey said..
I am running much smaller sails than if I was on a fin. At least 1.5m less

So it sounds like you have enough power but now I'm concerned that you are holding the boom so far forward rather than just feather it out from a more normal position. Having a steadier power and using subtle body shifts to control height is the objective (assuming you are relatively balanced on the board).

Going to powershloshin's point if the set up isn't quite right- do you feel like the board is rising pretty gently under you or does it take a lot of back foot pressure to make it come up/it comes up abruptly?

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kato said..
Hi all, does the board length/width make it easier or hard to learn foiling? Still learning on a 5 in 1 sup and struggling with anything over 10-15 kts with a 5.3. I know, more TOW but I want it now!

I would say a short foil to mast base position - common on multi use boards - does make it more difficult for someone starting out as the board, imho, is more sensitive. We had a discussion on this point on the post on 2keens new board. This same characteristic also makes for a more turny and front foot oriented board, one favored by more advanced riders. What are the dimensions of your board and what foil are you using with it? To answer the question - something around 200x75 to 225x85/90 130-150 l should be fine for learning. Again, just my opinion.

If you are struggling due to power, down be afraid to sail slightly underpowered. I know you are very fast and likely used to holding down a ton of power. It may be a new sensation to rig such a small sail in the conditions. Yesterday, I was foiling on a 5.4 beside a friend on a fin with a 9.5.

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Northern Monkey said..
also I am holding the boom very very close to the mast probably to depower the sail. anyway certainly work to be done at my end.

That alone will make it almost impossible to get steady flights (as a beginner). With a wide open sail, the relative effect of any sheeting in/out is much larger than if the sail is sheeted in. That leads to sudden changes in pressure on the mast foot, which in turn makes the foil go up or down. Better to go with an even smaller sail, and keep if sheeted in more.

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Paducah said..

If you are struggling due to power, down be afraid to sail slightly underpowered. I know you are very fast and likely used to holding down a ton of power. It may be a new sensation to rig such a small sail in the conditions. Yesterday, I was foiling on a 5.4 beside a friend on a fin with a 9.5.

I don't have much to add to this thread, lots of great advice. This is a good point.

My learning to foil was relatively recent, or ~2 years ago, and drastically improved when I learned to pump the board and sail and went smaller. I was using so much sail at first that it was scary, difficult to manage except on light days. Like an 8.0 when i should've been on my 6.6, and 6.6 when I probably could've used a 5.0. Biggest change was foiling with others with similar setups and seeing how they managed, and going through the learning to pump phase. Some setups pump easier than others.

I think its all been said but just in case. I don't want to feel like I am balancing a see-saw. I want to feel like my job is to hold the foil down. Basically I think of adding and releasing downforce on the foil, if that makes any sense. If I cannot fly I release pressure by weighting my back foot. If I am going to breach I increase pressure by shifting weight forwards and adding MFP. If I cannot add anymore downforce then I turn upwind if pointing or way off the wind if heading downwind

Balz briefly describes this feeling around 3 min