Hi All,
First time poster.
I'm looking at a second hand sails and have a choice between a 9.4 SV Overdrive M1, and a 9.4 SV Mach 3. Which would suit me better?
Price and condition are roughly equal. I am interested in advice on handling and characteristics.
The Mach 3 looks very good, but would it be too advance for me being a specialist race sail? the Overdrive is older, but would it better suit me ability?

I have a Apec pro 490 mast, which matchs both of these sails.

I'm a beginner / improver foiler. Currently using a Starboard Supercruiser and a Patrik Slalom 150 board. The board is 900 wide at max beam, but only about 650 wide at the rear footstrap. I'm looking at upgrading to a SB 800 front wing, 105 plus fuse and 255 back wing in the near future. The board moves easy in the light.

I understand these two sails are slalom and not foil dedicated. A new dedicated foil sail is out of the question due to budget.

I've been windsurfing about 18 months (lockdown induced mid-life crisis), and been foiling about 3 months. I can blast in straight lines, and can land a dolphin when I foil out, gybing is a long way off. I'm 95 kg with gear weight ontop of that. I use harness and front footstrap, but haven't fitted the rear footstrap yet (move my back foot around too much)

My main objective is to be able to foil in lighter wind. I can't pump to save myself (yet). Current biggest sail is a Severne 8.5 NCX. I have a Point 7 7.8 ACZ (2 cam) and love the acceleration it gives. Other sails in my quiver are Point 7 7.5 ACX (no cam slalom) and a 5.9 Spy (5 batten wave sail) which is my windy day sail.

At your level of experience, I wouldn't bother with such large sails. Get better with the gear you have.
IMHO the 8.5 NCX would be lighter than your proposed acquisition, this is a greater benefit than extra power and weight, especially whilst progressing on foil to gybes etc

I agree with Mr Keen, stay away from big sails, they make learning harder, especially larger non foil sails.
At your weight I would try and get the SB 900 wing. From the sails you have I would be using the Point 7 7.8 ACZ.
Learn to pump.

That foil won't respond well to larger sails, biggest I use with it is a 6.3m 3 batten.
With the race foil stuff from Starboard you'll want the 1100 or possibly 900 front wing to start off. The 800 is a huge jump from the Supercruiser 1700.

I started out using 9.0 for light wind foiling (8-10 knots), then went to 8.0 (as good as 9.0), then got a lesson and jumped to a 5.8 for 9-12, all are Aerotech Freespeed sails on a Goya Bolt 135, AFS W95 with F1080 cm2 wing, I weigh 84 kg plus gear. You are on a larger wing but weigh more so my sail sizes should work for you, learn to pump the sail to get up in light winds, can also pump the foil. Think about getting a lesson too, can do wonders to reduce sail size.

I agree that those 9+ meter sails will offer no earlier foiling than what you have now.

Here's an oddball option: Find an older Gaastra, Naish or Mauisails (tip-stiff) mast and shove it in that ACZ. The problem with ACZ as a foil sail is that by the time you've got it downhauled enough to let the cams rotate the leech is flopped out all the way to the boom and it's really exhausting to pump because the range of motion is so high. Using a very stiff-tipped mast will give you a flatter entry down low, raise the CoE, and keep the leech tight enough for effective pumping. It's a temporary fix but with everyone going more constant-curve those masts are going for cheap these days so it's much less pricey than even a used sail. Center of effort will be too far back to be ideal for cruising on a foil, but it'll pump much better I think.

Pumpability is the key. I was an awful pumper too, and with help from various pros have improved to being nearly mediocre, and it means I can run a full meter smaller sail than before.

And when I say I pump the sail, I mean I usually pump 2-3 times to get up depending on the wind, so not that much work, can also pump the foil but need more wind or bigger sail for that and that too takes 2-3 pumps usually, and can start pumping the sail to get board speed and then add in pumping of the foil, then I can get up on the foil momentarily in wind that will not allow for foiling!, but that takes more pumping of both sail and foil.

Thanks for the advice.
Looks like I can save some $$$ and not get the big sail.

For pumping, how much influence does the board tail width have?
I'm using a Patrik Slalom 150, with a tail width at the back footstraps of 650mm. I note the dedicated foil boards talk about 'more power' from the wide tail and wide foot position, but is that for race boards so you can get the leverage for going to windward (i.e. nothing to do with pumping?)

The tuning for my ACZ 7.8 sound interesting. It needs massive downhaul pressure to get it anywhere near to correct adjustment, and the main batten (the one with the big cam, just under the boom) doesn't appear to be tight enough. It has a vertical wrinkle. It is at max out, but I'm wondering if I need a cam spacer or something? It was second hand, and the previous owner was using a 100% mast on it, I have an 80% mast so hoping that helps. I've still got the 100% mast (both Point 7). Was going to sell the 100% mast to help fund more gear purchases.

Yes, it does sound like a spacer is needed. The 80 and 100% Point7 masts will have the same bend curve, so switching within the brand won't help - they'll both be the same Constant Curve. I'm suggesting actually putting a deliberately mismatched mast in there - a Hard Top mast to keep the leech tighter for more snap when you pump. It'll also bend more down low so the cams will rotate even when under-downhauled.

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Awalkspoiled said..
Yes, it does sound like a spacer is needed. The 80 and 100% Point7 masts will have the same bend curve, so switching within the brand won't help - they'll both be the same Constant Curve. I'm suggesting actually putting a deliberately mismatched mast in there - a Hard Top mast to keep the leech tighter for more snap when you pump. It'll also bend more down low so the cams will rotate even when under-downhauled.

Changing the mast tip sounds like a good concept. I was more commenting that I know the tuning isn't right on it, with the loose main batten and epicly tight downhaul.

I'm at that point where I can tell something isn't right, but don't really know how to go about improving it. I've been yacht racing for years, and understand sail shape and trim well, in that context. But these windsurf sails are missing half a dozen pieces of string to control the shape like I am used to... I'm still working to understand the interaction between sail design, must stiffness and downhaul and outhaul tension. I've got the basics of rigging the sail right, but I'm a bit weak when it comes to translating different settings into the feel and handling of the sail.

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K4309 said..
For pumping, how much influence does the board tail width have?
I'm using a Patrik Slalom 150, with a tail width at the back footstraps of 650mm. I note the dedicated foil boards talk about 'more power' from the wide tail and wide foot position, but is that for race boards so you can get the leverage for going to windward (i.e. nothing to do with pumping?)

Yes, a wide tail allows you to sheet the sail in more to get more extreme upwind angles, and helps give you leverage when tilting the board to windward. It also gives you a lot more room to place your feet during jibes. Foil boards that don't care about maximum upwind performance but control, like Wizards and Predators, have a center strap option more like a freestyle board. Tapering at the rear does help you pump the foil when still waterbound, as do cutaways on wide (90-100cm) race boards.

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K4309 said..

For pumping, how much influence does the board tail width have?
I'm using a Patrik Slalom 150, with a tail width at the back footstraps of 650mm. I note the dedicated foil boards talk about 'more power' from the wide tail and wide foot position, but is that for race boards so you can get the leverage for going to windward (i.e. nothing to do with pumping?)

I think you are right. My understanding is that the tail width helps race boards to carry big sails, powerful foils, and allow you to point upwind very well.

but notice that those foilboards have huge cutouts. I think the idea is to reduce the wetted area when pumping.

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Sandman1221 said..
I started out using 9.0 for light wind foiling (8-10 knots), then went to 8.0 (as good as 9.0), then got a lesson and jumped to a 5.8 for 9-12, all are Aerotech Freespeed sails on a Goya Bolt 135, AFS W95 with F1080 cm2 wing, I weigh 84 kg plus gear. You are on a larger wing but weigh more so my sail sizes should work for you, learn to pump the sail to get up in light winds, can also pump the foil. Think about getting a lesson too, can do wonders to reduce sail size.

Someone here once said for every 10 cm in board width you need an additional 1 meter of sail to get up. Personally I have not tested that since I only have one board. But if you are on a 90 cm wide board while I am on an 80 cm wide board, so you may need a bigger sail then me even given your bigger wing, especially if you are not pumping the sail properly to get up.

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Grantmac said..
That foil won't respond well to larger sails, biggest I use with it is a 6.3m 3 batten.
With the race foil stuff from Starboard you'll want the 1100 or possibly 900 front wing to start off. The 800 is a huge jump from the Supercruiser 1700.

Fully agree with others here. A low aspect foil responds well to a soft sail and pumping at the lower end of the wind range. A bigger sail may have more power but once up on foil, the Supercruiser doesn't really need it and once flying and may even be faster with the lower drag of a smaller sail.

I would rec an older higher aspect power wave sail and try tweaking with a stiffer mast if you have one. Something in the 5.7-6.2 range will be easy to handle and pump-able on the right mast. Once you are up on foil you may be surprised at how fast this rig could be and waaaay more fun than trying to wrangle a 9.0+.

Amazing! Most everyone agrees!

In my opinion that wave sail tswei99 recommended or the 5.9 you own is the way toward fun free ride foiling even in light air. I would also suggest you keep riding the super cruiser at least until you can gybe.

The best tip I can give for pumping with a big wing like yours is to start the motion with a vertical heave of your upper body and then focus on creating the dolphin pump motion with your legs using the sail as a counter balance to this motion. When I started to get this I went from 7.5 in 10-12 knots to 4.5 and I weigh 100kg! If you have a boat or a way to get towed you can sort the foil pumping out when the wind is too light to sail.

I started before really big wings were available. I wish I had the big wing and 5.9 meter sail when I started! In the beginning there is lots of windswiming going on and the small sails will give you longer sessions because they are WAY easier to uphaul. The big wings are more stable in pitch and roll so are the right choice to learn on. They have enough lift at slow speeds that sails much bigger than 6m are a liability.
The low speed lift is key to buying more time to complete your first gybes.

One thing I have learned for certain is that having the mast base really far forward radically inhibits early take off because the weight of the rig and the sail down force is on a long lever in front of the foil. The heavier the sail the worse it gets. The volume and shape of the Patrick slalom 150 are appropriate for your level and size but the mast track is way too far forward for smaller wave sails and the super cruiser. Your drapes don't match your carpet. If you want to enjoy small sails and turning I would recommend adding another mast track further back or selling it and getting something like the Foil X 145 while using your 5.9 as your BIG sail. If you want to blast fast in a straight line with big sails you could keep that board and those big sails a while longer but you will want to change your foil to something with a longer fuse and the biggest high aspect front wing in the chosen brand.

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tswei99 said..

I would rec an older higher aspect power wave sail and try tweaking with a stiffer mast if you have one. Something in the 5.7-6.2 range will be easy to handle and pump-able on the right mast. Once you are up on foil you may be surprised at how fast this rig could be and waaaay more fun than trying to wrangle a 9.0+.

This is interesting, I already have a North Tonix 6.6. It is higher aspect ration and quiet a different style of sail to the Point 7's I've got. I'd describe it as stiffer actually.
But I am following the concept of smaller, more pump-able wave sails. There are plenty second hand around here.
At my current skill level, getting up in 10 knts of breeze on a 5 m sail sounds like unicorn territory, but the learning and achievement of windfoiling is a big part of the buzz for me.

Understand about the mast track. I am putting all my sails at the very back of my mast track. Not particularly subtle tuning, but it seems to work. I have worked out if I put anything further forward it is really hard to get up. I did briefly consider getting an Exocet RF 91 (i.e. a dedicated foil board) but didn't. I was concerned the bigger wetted area would make it more sticky getting up, and am happy with the Patrik at the moment. I don't think I've got the gear & tuning knowledge, or the ability, to warrant spending $$$ on another board just yet.

My ultimate aim is to go as fast as I can in straight lines (slalom foil) and have enough upwind ability to get back to where I started from. I haven't actually considered trying to gybe just yet, that is down the list a bit after more consistent lift off and flight. Currently I keep going on a blast until I fall off, or come off the foil, then get going in the other direction again...

Understanding the attributes of the supercruiser, and wanting to go fast was why I was looking at an SB 800 wing, 105 plus fuse and 255 back wing. I'm probably not ready for it yet. On the supercruiser I can cruise at 13-14 knts, and have achieved 17 ish max speed. I know it is a big, draggy foil. Does the step up to the 800 combo sound appropriate, and what speed potential would it have? low to mid 20's?

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utcminusfour said..
If you have a boat or a way to get towed you can sort the foil pumping out when the wind is too light to sail.

Could you tell me more about this?
I've been under the impression the supercruiser is no good for tow foiling. Not sure why, but I get the impression tow foiling is better suited to the wind foil / prone surf foils, massive wings, short fuses etc.
We have an assortment of other boats. 3m inflatable dinghy (inflatable keel, like a RIB but not alloy), a 3.6 m fibreglass dinghy, a 2 hp OB, 5 hp outboat, and a 37 ft yacht with a 35 hp diesel (and a motor speed of 7 knts max)

I've seen others tow foil in a 3ish m inflatable and a 10 Hp outboard. If the kids ever got interested I was pondering upgrading the outboard to tow them on our existing dinghy. I always thought I need a 10 Hp to tow foil, but if I'm practicing pumping the 5 Hp on the inflatable might be enough?

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K4309 said..

tswei99 said..

I would rec an older higher aspect power wave sail and try tweaking with a stiffer mast if you have one. Something in the 5.7-6.2 range will be easy to handle and pump-able on the right mast. Once you are up on foil you may be surprised at how fast this rig could be and waaaay more fun than trying to wrangle a 9.0+.

This is interesting, I already have a North Tonix 6.6. It is higher aspect ration and quiet a different style of sail to the Point 7's I've got. I'd describe it as stiffer actually.
But I am following the concept of smaller, more pump-able wave sails. There are plenty second hand around here.
At my current skill level, getting up in 10 knts of breeze on a 5 m sail sounds like unicorn territory, but the learning and achievement of windfoiling is a big part of the buzz for me.

Understand about the mast track. I am putting all my sails at the very back of my mast track. Not particularly subtle tuning, but it seems to work. I have worked out if I put anything further forward it is really hard to get up. I did briefly consider getting an Exocet RF 91 (i.e. a dedicated foil board) but didn't. I was concerned the bigger wetted area would make it more sticky getting up, and am happy with the Patrik at the moment. I don't think I've got the gear & tuning knowledge, or the ability, to warrant spending $$$ on another board just yet.

My ultimate aim is to go as fast as I can in straight lines (slalom foil) and have enough upwind ability to get back to where I started from. I haven't actually considered trying to gybe just yet, that is down the list a bit after more consistent lift off and flight. Currently I keep going on a blast until I fall off, or come off the foil, then get going in the other direction again...

Understanding the attributes of the supercruiser, and wanting to go fast was why I was looking at an SB 800 wing, 105 plus fuse and 255 back wing. I'm probably not ready for it yet. On the supercruiser I can cruise at 13-14 knts, and have achieved 17 ish max speed. I know it is a big, draggy foil. Does the step up to the 800 combo sound appropriate, and what speed potential would it have? low to mid 20's?

I know someone that stepped from a infinity 84 I think to that sort of setup, then got the 725 and 650 front. He's a lightweight at ~65kg though and fairly experienced windsurfer.

I personally stepped from the infinity 76 to the IQFoil setup, or 900/115+/9.0. It was a humbling experience and I've beat up my 9.0HGO and have broken two of the masts so far (replaced under warranty) in about 80ish sessions in a year. I had about the same experience level as you, maybe less, as my jibes all around are still not quite there. I'll probably need to grab another new sail to be competitive.

This is the 650/105+ setup with a 7.5 camless (gator) and the 95cm wide IQFoil board. He's on a predator, not sure the volume, 6.0 2 or 3 cam foil sail, and 725/105+ and weighs about 60lbs less than me? We're both hitting about 20-25 easy and not doing much more than reaching. My technique isn't dialed with this setup.

K4309,
First off, welcome to the forum and thanks for reaching out. Your questions will help others.

I am not the best person to advise you on slalom foil, I have gone down the big wing surf style route. That said I have personal experience riding wings like what will be recommend to you by others here. I can comfortably say that they do not respond to the foil pumping as much as larger wings do. It's more about the big sail than the foil pumping. At our size and with slalom front wings foiling in 10 knots with a 5 meter is unicorn territory.

I strongly believe that anytime spent on any other type of foiling (surf, sup, winging, tow) will improve your windfoiling whatever style you aspire to. Tow foiling is good in particular because you can go when you can't windfoil and the power source is steady. Foiling requires so many non intuitive movements that you have to find ways to get the required time on the water, cross training is a way to do that.

I got started tow foiling using the windfoil kit that I had. In fact I still ride my shred sled on occasion even though I have other options, the float makes getting up easy. The board and foil you have will work just fine just take the foot straps off.

Your boats are border line. 10 hp and the inflatable would get it I should think but might be tough with a spotter (required) in the tender but the spotter can be a light kid. For learning to foil ideally the boat can make 10 knots under load, this way you can foil without pumping. So you need a boat that can plane with three (many yacht tenders can) or a trawler that can make 10 knots or a jet ski.

When you have learned to get up, survive crossing over the wake and ride steady then you can work on the pumping motion outside the wake. You know you are getting it when you get moments of slack in the line. You will be gaining skills just riding along without any pumping, among other things you will be building your subconscious ride height control skills that are the cornerstone of all foiling.

If you have a wake park that is another great way to go foiling with what you have when there is no wind. The fact that the cable stops to turn around gives you the chance to learn how to foil through a turn without a power source. This is great training for gybing and wave riding.

I'm at the point with my pump foiling where I can link a few together and make some boat speed. This has been really beneficial to my windfoiing in light air. I want to be able to self propel for longer stretches and eventually dock start. At the moment I am without a proper towboat so I am headed to the wake park to work on this on the next flat day that I am free to ride.

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utcminusfour said..
K4309,
First off, welcome to the forum and thanks for reaching out. Your questions will help others.

I am not the best person to advise you on slalom foil, I have gone down the big wing surf style route. That said I have personal experience riding wings like what will be recommend to you by others here. I can comfortably say that they do not respond to the foil pumping as much as larger wings do. It's more about the big sail than the foil pumping. At our size and with slalom front wings foiling in 10 knots with a 5 meter is unicorn territory.

I strongly believe that anytime spent on any other type of foiling (surf, sup, winging, tow) will improve your windfoiling whatever style you aspire to. Tow foiling is good in particular because you can go when you can't windfoil and the power source is steady. Foiling requires so many non intuitive movements that you have to find ways to get the required time on the water, cross training is a way to do that.

I got started tow foiling using the windfoil kit that I had. In fact I still ride my shred sled on occasion even though I have other options, the float makes getting up easy. The board and foil you have will work just fine just take the foot straps off.

Your boats are border line. 10 hp and the inflatable would get it I should think but might be tough with a spotter (required) in the tender but the spotter can be a light kid. For learning to foil ideally the boat can make 10 knots under load, this way you can foil without pumping. So you need a boat that can plane with three (many yacht tenders can) or a trawler that can make 10 knots or a jet ski.

When you have learned to get up, survive crossing over the wake and ride steady then you can work on the pumping motion outside the wake. You know you are getting it when you get moments of slack in the line. You will be gaining skills just riding along without any pumping, among other things you will be building your subconscious ride height control skills that are the cornerstone of all foiling.

If you have a wake park that is another great way to go foiling with what you have when there is no wind. The fact that the cable stops to turn around gives you the chance to learn how to foil through a turn without a power source. This is great training for gybing and wave riding.

I'm at the point with my pump foiling where I can link a few together and make some boat speed. This has been really beneficial to my windfoiing in light air. I want to be able to self propel for longer stretches and eventually dock start. At the moment I am without a proper towboat so I am headed to the wake park to work on this on the next flat day that I am free to ride.

Fully agree with "anytime spent on any other type of foiling (surf, sup, winging, tow) will improve your windfoiling whatever style you aspire to". I would rec getting thru foiling jibes and then deciding your next direction. I started out on the slalom/race end of the spectrum too early and credit a low aspect foil (Infinity 76) and soft foil sail (Naish Lift) for really accelerating my development. The low aspect designs like the Supercruiser/i76 with a soft sail really help you feel what's going on with the foil.

I have since moved on to slalom gear (starboard race stuff) but I credit the low aspect foils and soft sails for getting me there.