I am one of the, so turned out, many defeated wonna-be foilers of the San Francisco Bay Are, and for a while I thought that I was not missing that much. Foilers were struggling a lot. Crashing (violently), slogging, debating what and how to rig, looking often like out of control broncos, forget about jibing. I understood the appeal of the new but I thought that I was not missing much by giving it up.

Then, two things happened.

First, windfoil disappeared. Literally. By 2021 nobody windfoiled any longer. All windfoilers went back to windsurf or moved to wingfoil.

Second, a windsurfing buddy of mine persisted and kept foiling. And suddenly, after two years, things really clicked. He goes around like he is at a picnic, jibes beautifully, never slogs. All conditions, down to my 3.7, all the way passed where my 7.5 is not enough. He is slower than my Slalom board, but where I basically never have a session without some slogging and bounce around our horrible chop, he always serenely goes. Two boards, a Starboard race and a JP 120, in our conditions he uses three sails. 3.9, 5.0 and 7.0. And so clearly, yes, foiling is in some ways beter than windsurfing. Range and comfort (although the painful crashes are still there.)

But the question is: why it all but disappeared where I live? Is it because of the strong winds and difficult conditions? The access ticket (it took my friend a two years investment to master, and he sails all the time). Is it happening in other places? And is it a coincidence that the only two people who I still see on windfoil are both 100Kg? (I am 70 Kg).

I think it's the ease and lower equipment need/cost for winging

One buddy of mine is out all the time and has been winging roughly a year. He was flying through jibes relatively soon and then working on flying tacks. Regularly does 20mile plus days. He didn't have a kiting or windsurfing background. Has 2 wings I think, and now one board.

Winging seems to have exploded around here. I do run into people regularly getting windsurf lessons, and people still windfoiling, but a lot of windfoilers also trying with winging (I did, although now I don't really have a suitable wingfoil board anymore).

Windfoiling is undoubtedly more difficult than winging, and more expensive. I have a couple of friends that are waiting to take winging lessons with zero interest in windsurfing. Some people still prefer fin windsurfing or windfoiling and I don't expect to see them winging, but they are no where near as common as the dozen+ wingers down by the main bridge here on every windy day, hanging out with the dozen+ kiters. There are probably 2-3x more wingers/kiters combined than windsurfers overall, with a fraction of that people that windfoil here.

I also know people that windsurfed for a decade+, picked up a wing kit, and now never see on windsurfing gear. It all fits in the car. Meanwhile I often bring 2-3 boards and multiple rigs/foils

When windfoiling started, we didn't know what worked and how, equipment, specially foil were small and race baised, so it was difficult road, most developments again was course race, slalom oriented. So wind foil missed it opportunity to appeal to larger group. While wing foil right away went after freeride, easy use market, plus smaller gear that fits in the trunk of the car. Even now, i have to custom build my board and foil, because freeride / wave offerings are limited for windfoil. people like two things, easy and new, and wing foil fits that description. For some of us who stayed with windfoil freeride/wave side it is getting better every day and amazing fun, but gear wise not easy, and a literally doing my own R&D

Windfoil is alive and doing very well at my local. We're a generally low wind spot so a lot of what a windfoil excels at really appeals here. We've had a lot of the "I'll foil in light winds but windsurf in higher winds" crowd inch more and more towards windfoil in higher winds as the wider wind range of a foil makes up and down days so much easier.

Winging is taking off for newcomers to any windsport but the crossover from wind to wingfoil tends to be people wanting to do both rather than a full migration. Again, our light and not always dependable winds tend to favor windfoil/surf because it makes getting home much easier when the wind dies. Balancing on a 75-90 l. wing board isn't fun and paddling back in is usually the result.

Wing definitely has the shorter curve and lower gear requirements. However, the carve and speed abilities of good rec windfoil equipment makes it harder to go completely to wing for me. I think, as duzzi points out, having a mentor who can demonstrate what a good windfoil can do goes a long way for encouraging other windfoilers. If all you see is IQFoil, you may not be aware of how dang fun it is on a swell, etc. Not knocking the race side at all - I dabble at the back of the pack myself - and having those speed and up/downwind skills are another boost to windfoiling. We are much more likely to take field trips from the local launch more than wings or kites because if things go sideways, usually, we are much more self-sufficient. If it drops to 5, I can generally get home instead of swimming or paddling.

Before we drag out the trope of "manufacturers just focused on racing", let's remember that Naish, Slingshot, Horue and others were pushing the freeride side of the sport four or more years ago before winging was even a thing. And, we were just as guilty as anyone else. I certainly said more than once back in 2015/16, "why foil if it's slower than a windsurfer?" If anything really hindered progress is that so much of the tech came from kite foils and it took a long time for the sport to understand how beneficial bigger wings could be even if slower. The first NP foil- the Pinkie - is literally about half the wing area of the current NP HA1300 (Medium Slim) and a third of the i84. Had we all been starting on 12-1800 cm2 wings, we would have all progressed faster but we were still asking if foiling was faster than finning.

Late season cold blast this day a couple weeks back. Temp about 7C. Having a 4.2 and 125 l. instead of a 6.0 and 110 like my friend was nice.



The reef marker in the background here is a 1km swim back to our local launch. Not uncommon for things to shut down when we are well past that. Nice to be able to float back home. Back in the windsurfing days, that was kind of like the end of our dog run. Now, I commonly turn past that and head another 2-3 kms and go sight-seeing. 6.7 sail on a day that used to require Formula gear

SF has at least 10 windfoilers, compared to 500+ wingfoilers

Miami numbers, might be somewhat similar, but most wingers are coming from surfing, kitesurfing side. Something similar I see in my second home away from home, Cabarete DR.
Only on perfect windsurfing days, good wind/good waves the numbers of windsurfers swell up now

I followed the windfoil tech for a few years to see how it developed, as I knew it would take some time to work out. Our local kite boarders where the first I saw of foilers (other than the Moth and Wasp class of sailboat foils). The slingshot video's of using small sails/boards with larger wing (i76) is what really peaked my interest. Then when they introduced the foil track system for the mechanical interface, I went all in on the gear. First couple moths was brutal getting things sorted out, but one year later, couldn't be happier. I' more of a "set it and forget it" rider. Other than sail outhaul, downhaul, everything else doesn't move. 3 sails to cover 12 -30 knots (3.6,4.5,5.2). I would say wingers are 1/2 of the foilers, with equal windfoil and kitefoilers making up the balance. The wingers except for one guy stay close to home and don't venture far from the launch point. Our winds can be highly variable. My board volume (114L). is just big enough for me (140lbs) to slog 1/2 hour home if I have to. Kiters and wingers have to float around waiting for the next wind line, or swim/paddle home. My SS 114 can double as a wing board, but not sure how my old beat up shoulders would handle it. Looks like a lot of "overhead" work.

My windsurfing mate and I each started wind foiling (me) and winging (him) 14 months ago. I progressed quickly, with controlled flight and dry tacks and non flying gybes on my second session and my first flying gybe within 5 months. His progress on the wing was tortuous. It took 2 months for consistent controlled flight and 6 months for dry non flying transitions. But he persisted and in the last 3 months he has nailed flying gybes and toeside winging and is mostly dry during his session.

We both still windsurf, but foiling represents over 70% of our sessions these days. I free foil with an Alien 125 and use 3 sails (5, 6 & 7) to cover 8 to 20kts. Wind swell riding is what I crave.

On Moreton Bay there are similar numbers of wind, wing and kite foilers, although the wingers and kite foilers numbers are increasing and the wind foilers seemed to have peaked.

I windfoil because I think it rocks!
It leverages what I learned on all those days I skipped high school to go windsurfing
It improves on the shortcomings of shortboard windsurfing that made me stop years ago.
I am the only one for hundreds of miles of me, there are barely any slappers left.
There are zero shops or schools within hundreds of miles.
I had to teach myself and filter through all the BS marketing and hold over mentalities from high wind windsurfing to figure out what works for me.
Frankly, it is kinda fun and liberating not having to compare myself to the guy riding next me, although I do and I learn from lining up with the winger and kites. Fortunately, those other riders have welcomed me into the tribe and foiling gives us common ground.
Olympic coverage will help create awareness but that is not free ride gear.
As for the amount and size of the gear, I want the float and length to get back in when the wind dies so those tiny wing boards do not interest me. My daily kit is one board, one mast, one boom, two sails and two front wings. No biggie!
I am almost done caring that nobody else gets it. But not totally, the next board in my quiver will be something I can teach beginners how to windsurf on to keep the flame alive.
You know most of us here are mature adults, we should have learned by now to not care what others think! Let's dance to beat of own drummer.
Duzzi, you gonna keep trying?

Windsurfing is technically and physically demanding, windfoiling is even more technically demanding but gets less and less physically demanding as you learn to use smaller wing and sail sizes for the same conditions. And technical includes the equipment and your balance and control of the equipment which can be going very fast. And it is also easy to get hurt and damage equipment with both. And both have a significantly longer learning curve compared to kite foiling and wingfoiling, and that takes dedication and perseverance. But if you enjoy being challenged, speed, covering large distances and getting back if the wind drops, then windsurfing and windfoiling are a good choice!

I still windsurf when its over 18-20 (unless im racing foils), and i also race slalom windsurf gear, but i love my race foil gear like nothing else. Its extended my sailing season to 12 months of the year, and theres nothing like the feeling of flying along 5 feet off the water doing angles and speed upwind that i could not do on anything else. Winging is very popular here but its not for me. By the way Duzzi, i only weigh 75 kgs myself and i use sails up to 9m race foil sails so you can do it too if you want to.

I can think of three other (besides me) SF Bay windfoilers who post here regularly. I see a handful more at my local launch. Winging is easier. Until the bladder pops a mile out. Kiting was easier too. dangerously so. I still can't reliably jibe, but I'll get it and then I'll be like your friend.

Hey duzzi,
Similar thing happened here in Tas. Quite a few of us got into windfoiling 3+ years ago from windsurfing. Since then many have moved on to winging. Not many staying with windfoiling. Those that have, generally windfoil in flatter conditions.
About a year ago I got encouraged to have a go on the wing after thinking I didn't need another element of this sport to indulge in. Learning curve seemed really easy with all the background skills I had. For me windfoiling was always difficult if the wind was gusting through a wide range. I would have difficulty keeping the foil planted in gusts and often found it somewhat of a chore. My skill capacity would be to blame. Plus I could never flying gybe - foot switching just seemed too hard with the board overcompensating for my weight changes.
Winging I found to be much better for control - def feels slower. I can get going in similar wind strengths for either foil activity. I have got gybes down pat with some of the easier foils I use and waveriding feels more intuitive with the ability to park the wing and mess around surfing the board. Windfoiling just didn't seem that easy to wavesail.
I think prone foiling and sup foiling will also [POTENTIALLY] stem from winging for me as they feel like they are natural transitions, where parking the windfoiling rig while waveriding is not something that comes easy.
To be fair though, the windfoilers are doing amazing stuff. It's more popular to wing, but I think it's because it's a little bit easier to learn and has more openings to other foiling activities once you improve. But some of the windfoiling surf vids are just outstanding.
Selfishly I think I'm just soooo bloody fortunate that foiling is here now (I'm into my 50's looking forwards to 2 more decades of this), and I say each to their own. I love seeing everyone out there having fun regardless of what discipline you're into.

I got into windfoiling in 2017 because it was new and different. And difficult. The gear was still difficult. Slalom sails and conventional boards and slalom-racing-oriented foils with smallish wings made things difficult. Board geometries were wrong with fin boxes too far aft. The first thing I did was move a DT box 3 inches further forward on an old formula board. Now everything balanced out. But the slalom sails and slalom-oriented foil were still difficult.

The gear now is much better. Easier to balance, to control, to use in variable conditions. Foil-specific sails help to counteract breaching, foil boards have better geometry, and foils have gone to bigger wings for easier lifting and glide and control. The Slingshot Infiniity and Sailworks Flyers pretty much led the way. The entire industry has improved things a lot.

I have not used a fin since 2017. Even when the wind gets up into the 20kt to 30kt range, I still foil, but simply with a smaller sail, but with the same single board. Friends of mine foil successfully in 30kt wind with a 2.5-2.8 sail over a i76 foil. No problem.

In Seattle's mostly light winds year-round, most windfoilers are converted windsurfers. A few of them have gone to winging.

In the Columbia Gorge, many wingers are converted kiters. At the Event Site in Hood River, years ago, you might see 200 kites out on the sand bar. Now you might see 100 kites and 100 wings. The balance has shifted. Windfoiler numbers have stayed about the same over the last three years.

If you look at wingers around the gorge, you might get the impression that winging is better oriented toward strong winds and bigger chop or waves. There are certainly a lot of wingers who are really good at winging in strong conditions. I know one winger who drives down from Spokane to wing on the Columbia River because it offers the best waves close to home for him. He makes the 3-hour trip only when it blows 20 kt or stronger. He does not wing on flat water.

That said, there are plenty of wingers around Florida who wing very successfully in the mostly light winds there. They typically opt for relatively short masts (70-80cm) to wing all around the shallow inshore waters. At one site (75 cent beach) where I windfoil with my 90 cm mast, I have to stick to the deeper boat channels, while they wing all over the place over the shallow flats.

It's all good. We love this sport.

I am curious to know what foiling gear Duzzi tried to learn on.

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thedoor said..
I am curious to know what foiling gear Duzzi tried to learn on.

Rumor has it that he is still on FRP gear and still trying to get his refund.


Relax. It is only a joke.

1 of 10

#2 of 10

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Gwarn said..
#2 of 10

To me this photo is everything I don't want freeride/wave foiling should be.
Board too short if wind drops to zero, sail too big, foil and foot straps(not sure if we even need them) too far from mast track. This just looks so un comfortable

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thedoor said..
I am curious to know what foiling gear Duzzi tried to learn on.

I started with a Taaroa, and then a Moses 790 with a Flikka. But really, this has nothing to do with me. My original post was meant to praise windfoiling.

Looking back, at first the only good sailors around were the F4 crew. Going around with 8.0 in 20 knots. Out of reach, really. Then the wave of new users hit, and you could imagine the potential, but, really, with very few exceptions it looked just bad and scary. Fast forward three years and now that I see what a friend of mine can do I finally can see the advantage. He gets away with one board, two because he has race and freeride, few sails cover a huge range of conditions, he is rarely under-powered, when, at 100Kg, used to be in constant trouble if not properly powered. Foil is safe floatation-wise, and long distance touring can be massive. So, there's the praise! It is a fantastic development!

The question was why so many people dropped it. At least where I sail numbers are down: I never count more than two wind-foilers, down to ten or more from three year ago. We did get a lot of good because(s) above.

Who you can: enjoy wind-foiling!!!!!!

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miamiwindsurfe said..

Gwarn said..
#2 of 10

To me this photo is everything I don't want freeride/wave foiling should be.
Board too short if wind drops to zero, sail too big, foil and foot straps(not sure if we even need them) too far from mast track. This just looks so un comfortable

www.instagram.com/p/CZDiBxtK8UC/


The is 100 L 149cm it floats me just fine a 200lbs
The sail is a 3.8 how much smaller you want?
Foot straps are only in the way if you let them be in the way.
I wish you the best on finding your riding Style.

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duzzi said..

thedoor said..
I am curious to know what foiling gear Duzzi tried to learn on.

I started with a Taaroa, and then a Moses 790 with a Flikka. But really, this has nothing to do with me. My original post was meant to praise windfoiling.

Looking back, at first the only good sailors around were the F4 crew. Going around with 8.0 in 20 knots. Out of reach, really. Then the wave of new users hit, and you could imagine the potential, but, really, with very few exceptions it looked just bad and scary. Fast forward three years and now that I see what a friend of mine can do I finally can see the advantage. He gets away with one board, two because he has race and freeride, few sails cover a huge range of conditions, he is rarely under-powered, when, at 100Kg, used to be in constant trouble if not properly powered. Foil is safe floatation-wise, and long distance touring can be massive. So, there's the praise! It is a fantastic development!

The question was why so many people dropped it. At least where I sail numbers are down: I never count more than two wind-foilers, down to ten or more from three year ago. We did get a lot of good because(s) above.

Who you can: enjoy wind-foiling!!!!!!

We are happy to receive your praise

I think if there was no wingfoiling most of those early adopters would still be windfoiling. My guess is most of those who dropped windfoiling, went to winging and now rarely sail. This post in 2020 predicted the exodus www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Most-on-this-forum-will-move-to-WW-foiling?page=1 but wing versus sail numbers are heavily skewed by ex kiters and new comers to wind sports as mentioned above.

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miamiwindsurfe said..

Gwarn said..
#2 of 10

To me this photo is everything I don't want freeride/wave foiling should be.
Board too short if wind drops to zero, sail too big, foil and foot straps(not sure if we even need them) too far from mast track. This just looks so un comfortable

Board doesn't seem to be holding him back at all , and that sail is about 4m I reckon. Gwarn ain't the tallest dude.

www.instagram.com/p/CZDiBxtK8UC/

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Gwarn said..

miamiwindsurfe said..

Gwarn said..
#2 of 10

To me this photo is everything I don't want freeride/wave foiling should be.
Board too short if wind drops to zero, sail too big, foil and foot straps(not sure if we even need them) too far from mast track. This just looks so un comfortable

www.instagram.com/p/CZDiBxtK8UC/


The is 100 L 149cm it floats me just fine a 200lbs
The sail is a 3.8 how much smaller you want?
Foot straps are only in the way if you let them be in the way.
I wish you the best on finding your riding Style.

Definitely misjudged your physical size on photo, so assumed sail size bigger... That has to be high wind conditions like Gorge than or you have a skill level way out of my league, never understood sailing regularly in those kind of winds, almost different sport. Long time ago i ordered custom gorge board (real wind), latest shape, best construction, etc., I could never dial in on that thing in WI,FL, eventually just gave it away to someone that was going on a gorge trip... One thing I learned from it, whatever works at the Gorge doesn't always translate to the rest of us with avg. wind 5-20kn reality.... Sorry

Gwarn,
I think what you do is amazing! You have mad skills and you choose to live and travel where it is windy. Brilliant!
If you were to create the ideal situation to set the hook for someone like Duzzi and help them progress, would you turn them loose on the kit in that picture? Or in that much wind?

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Gwarn said..

miamiwindsurfe said..

Gwarn said..
#2 of 10

To me this photo is everything I don't want freeride/wave foiling should be.
Board too short if wind drops to zero, sail too big, foil and foot straps(not sure if we even need them) too far from mast track. This just looks so un comfortable

www.instagram.com/p/CZDiBxtK8UC/

This looks impressive and fun. Freeride gives you option to play joyfully.

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utcminusfour said..
Gwarn,
I think what you do is amazing! You have mad skills and you choose to live and travel where it is windy. Brilliant!
If you were to create the ideal situation to set the hook for someone like Duzzi and help them progress, would you turn them loose on the kit in that picture? Or in that much wind?

John is indeed one of the two surviving north-west Bay foil guys I am referring to! He does great!!!!! He and Robert (the first friend I was referring to), and TheDoor are elected idols of mine!!!

Duzzi, much respect for the original post. I've read of your frustrations over the years and was always hoping you'd get the magic spark of the "whatever" that tripped the switch for so many of us.

As I said above, often it helps having friends/colleagues to inspire us and glad you have yours.

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Paducah said..
Duzzi, much respect for the original post. I've read of your frustrations over the years and was always hoping you'd get the magic spark of the "whatever" that tripped the switch for so many of us.

As I said above, often it helps having friends/colleagues to inspire us and glad you have yours.

Yeah I always figured you are right. If you are a light guy, mostly interested in speed & willing to sail a 7.0(not me) then foiling does not have as much to offer in the SF Bay area. But if you top out with a 5.0 & like carvy free ride sailing then Foiling is a no brainer. Here in the Gorge there is still a strong contingent of Windfoilers who foil no matter the conditions & an equal number of those who Windsurf when conditions are ideal & Windfoil when they are not. As for Winging it is really taking off. I see a few Windsurfers & some Windfoilers who switched to Wing, but mostly Kiters & kite foilers. Kiting is really becoming less popular - especially those riding directional surf style boards. There are also quite a few coming from non windsport background trying something new. Personally I am Windsurfing in good solid conditions(4.2/3.7) & learning Wingfoiling the rest of the time. I have shelved Windfoiling for the time being but plan on taking it up again as time allows...

It looks like there will be a lot of windfoilers in the future:

www.instagram.com/tv/CdK3FusDYLb/?igshid=YTM0ZjI4ZDI=

For windsurfers, getting into windfoiling seems straightforward - just get a foil. In contrast, winging would require also getting a wing and a wingboard, which more than doubles the expense.

But for kiters, getting into winging is easier and cheaper. Buy one wing instead of a sail, mast, boom, mast foot, and extension. Instead of learning to rig, just pump up the wing. Since kiters drastically outnumber windsurfers, that alone means there will be many more wingers than windfoilers. At some spots in the US that I've seen, most of the wingers indeed came from kiting.

Which leaves the question about windfoilers switching to winging. Locally, two of the best windsurfers switched from windfoiling to 100% winging. A third very enthusiastic windsurfer only started windfoiling to learn how to handle a foil so that she could switch to winging later. She picked up windfoiling much quicker than winging, but persisted through many session (her biggest problem turned out to be getting the gear tuned for her light weight). Another windfoiler is in the process of switching. Then there are two windfoilers who have not switched - one of them, who picked up windfoiling quickly, is not even considering it, and the other one tried a few times, but has not yet had a good wing session (which is probably also a gear issue).

That's a small sample, but may well reflect a general trend: some windfoilers will stick to the sail, but many will sooner or later switch to wings.