If you can get a gust to push DOWN on the sail mast base, yes, it will counteract the tendency to breach.

The only way to achieve this is to stay sheeted in. Properly designed foil sails will accomplish this.

Instructors have been telling people to stay sheeted in for decades, even for fin windsurfing.

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Paducah said..

Subsonic said..
Many have tried to convince Sandy to see the error of his ways.
All have failed.

Breaking News: Horse dies of thirst after being led to water hole.

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bel29 said..
agree (and it has been said so many times before that I don't know why I'm still typing this): your lines are too short. also, if you want to more easily sheet in/out while hooked in, put your lines closer together.

Saw there was a new video up, right at 2:00

There is no right or wrong way with this stuff whatever works for you.
I run 22s with a waist harness with a sliding hook I guess I'm a joey....

Lets not even get started on the front wings......

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jdfoils said..
Not sure why I am wading into this quagmire of misinformation, but here goes...

If you are sheeting out in the gusts, you are doing it wrong. Get your gear tuned properly and stay sheeted in.

You are nuts!

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segler said..
If you can get a gust to push DOWN on the sail mast base, yes, it will counteract the tendency to breach.

The only way to achieve this is to stay sheeted in. Properly designed foil sails will accomplish this.

Instructors have been telling people to stay sheeted in for decades, even for fin windsurfing.

Segler, It is gusting 20-25 knots with 2-3+ foot waves, so not much room to no room for error with a 95 cm foil mast, and then a 30 knot gust slams you, the safest and easiest way to handle it IMO is to just let it go, at that point you have so much pressure on the sail you keep flying even when sheeted out all the way!, of course while still hooked into the forward line which while having more sheeting out range than a balanced line, still limits how far you can sheet out versus unhooked with the sail flagged.

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Paducah said..

Subsonic said..
Many have tried to convince Sandy to see the error of his ways.
All have failed.

Breaking News: Horse dies of thirst after being led to water hole.

Sandman - that AFS F800/1080 wing that you can't/won't ride in winds above 20? Here it is in action under my massive 63 kg in 25-30 kts. Because of my size, I run the freeride gear around 26-27 but race gear is closer to 30+. This is why we run balanced lines and longer lines.

On a gentler day. No need to have to go down in wing size. The F800/1080 is a wonderful wing to play in swell (similar to SAB 799)

Paducah, so do have an AFS F770 or S670 wing?, cause they are so much faster than the F1080 and easier to handle in high speed down winders (versus slow swell riding), that is why I get on them as sooon as possible, but hey if you are happy going slow and riding swell, well good for you To each their own!

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Gwarn said..
There is no right or wrong way with this stuff whatever works for you.
I run 22s with a waist harness with a sliding hook I guess I'm a joey....

Lets not even get started on the front wings......

Good to hear, thanks Gwarn!

So balanced lines in light winds 9-12 knots definitely take less energy than forward lines, and with a big enough sail I can use the short ~23-24" lines. So 9-10 knot gusts, Areotech Freespeed 8.0 sail, and AFS F1080 cm2 wing, and mast base at 38.5" to front foil screw, get up with sail pumping and am pretty balanced with rear foot between foot strap front/rear screw holes, and sail powered up with short lines.

The thing I have to remember with short harness lines, forward or balanced, is that with my seat harness and 23-24" lines I need to unhook before I come off the foil, otherwise I will get trapped in the harness line when slogging on the water and that becomes a balancing act that is easy to lose and end up in the water. Of course I can release the Sailworks Quiktune harness line on the water, but in practice have never done it because I was so busy trying to stay balanced on the board in waves while kinda hanging from the harness line, will have to deliberately practice releasing harness line while on the water.

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Sandman1221 said..
So balanced lines in light winds 9-12 knots definitely take less energy than forward lines, and with a big enough sail I can use the short ~23-24" lines. So 9-10 knot gusts, Areotech Freespeed 8.0 sail, and AFS F1080 cm2 wing, and mast base at 38.5" to front foil screw, get up with sail pumping and am pretty balanced with rear foot between foot strap front/rear screw holes, and sail powered up with short lines.

The thing I have to remember with short harness lines, forward or balanced, is that with my seat harness and 23-24" lines I need to unhook before I come off the foil, otherwise I will get trapped in the harness line when slogging on the water and that becomes a balancing act that is easy to lose and end up in the water. Of course I can release the Sailworks Quiktune harness line on the water, but in practice have never done it because I was so busy trying to stay balanced on the board in waves while kinda hanging from the harness line, will have to deliberately practice releasing harness line while on the water.

listen or don't ... you have been told.

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gorgesailor said..

Sandman1221 said..
So balanced lines in light winds 9-12 knots definitely take less energy than forward lines, and with a big enough sail I can use the short ~23-24" lines. So 9-10 knot gusts, Areotech Freespeed 8.0 sail, and AFS F1080 cm2 wing, and mast base at 38.5" to front foil screw, get up with sail pumping and am pretty balanced with rear foot between foot strap front/rear screw holes, and sail powered up with short lines.

The thing I have to remember with short harness lines, forward or balanced, is that with my seat harness and 23-24" lines I need to unhook before I come off the foil, otherwise I will get trapped in the harness line when slogging on the water and that becomes a balancing act that is easy to lose and end up in the water. Of course I can release the Sailworks Quiktune harness line on the water, but in practice have never done it because I was so busy trying to stay balanced on the board in waves while kinda hanging from the harness line, will have to deliberately practice releasing harness line while on the water.

listen or don't ... you have been told.

Oh gorgesailer I do listen and test (see my comment in post on when to replace the U-joint tendon, Formula's advice saved the session), but if it does not work for me I ignore it, last I heard there was no law against ignoring good advice cause it is only good if it helps me

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Sandman1221 said..

The thing I have to remember with short harness lines, forward or balanced, is that with my seat harness and 23-24" lines I need to unhook before I come off the foil, otherwise I will get trapped in the harness line when slogging on the water and that becomes a balancing act that is easy to lose and end up in the water.

That sounds awful. Your lines are short anyway but with a seat harness that's nuts.

I think most of us went through a phase of having short lines when we first started windfoiling . I remember feeling like I didn't want any power once I was up on the foil. You have a lot a performance and ease of use to unlock once you see the light on longer harness lines.

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gorgesailor said..

Sandman1221 said..
So balanced lines in light winds 9-12 knots definitely take less energy than forward lines, and with a big enough sail I can use the short ~23-24" lines. So 9-10 knot gusts, Areotech Freespeed 8.0 sail, and AFS F1080 cm2 wing, and mast base at 38.5" to front foil screw, get up with sail pumping and am pretty balanced with rear foot between foot strap front/rear screw holes, and sail powered up with short lines.

The thing I have to remember with short harness lines, forward or balanced, is that with my seat harness and 23-24" lines I need to unhook before I come off the foil, otherwise I will get trapped in the harness line when slogging on the water and that becomes a balancing act that is easy to lose and end up in the water. Of course I can release the Sailworks Quiktune harness line on the water, but in practice have never done it because I was so busy trying to stay balanced on the board in waves while kinda hanging from the harness line, will have to deliberately practice releasing harness line while on the water.

listen or don't ... you have been told.

I think we've reached this point in the thread

What is your max harness line length

50 INCH! according to Michele Becker!
?feature=share

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simonp65 said..

Sandman1221 said..

The thing I have to remember with short harness lines, forward or balanced, is that with my seat harness and 23-24" lines I need to unhook before I come off the foil, otherwise I will get trapped in the harness line when slogging on the water and that becomes a balancing act that is easy to lose and end up in the water.

That sounds awful. Your lines are short anyway but with a seat harness that's nuts.

I think most of us went through a phase of having short lines when we first started windfoiling . I remember feeling like I didn't want any power once I was up on the foil. You have a lot a performance and ease of use to unlock once you see the light on longer harness lines.

I agree and resonate with this sentence here from Simonp65,I come from windsurfing, I was a good one and used long lines (32") I would say tuned for gusts to sheet in in the gusts, then when getting to foiling I got confused by the many saying you need to be more upright, shorter lines etc...as a matter of fact that is the route for novice, but reality is that from what concerns harness lines lenght Windfoiling vs windsurfing they are pretty the same, and some racers which are obviously getting quite loaded from the sail they are using longer harness lineas to keep distance from the sail. At the moment I am at 32" as harness lines lenght, but going to test 40" soon. This is for power wind foiling so to say, where you hang on the harness and use it as a mean to transfer the sail pull into the board. It is also possible a more relaxed way to foil, with even no harness at all, standing quite upright, at that point harness line lenght is just a metter of how high you have the boom to hook in with very moderate leaning to manage wind strenght. I do not consider myself an expert, still progressing on windfoiling, so take as pure observation on the water if you whish.

I'll switch to 50" lines when I grow 50" arms.

Long lines!

My gawd they look like bungee cords.

Long lines allow you get low.

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DarrylG said..


Long lines allow you get low.

While keeping the rig upright for max power,...nevertheless at this extent I would not feel comfortable..yet though I am not a racer so probably I will nevver need to get that low:-) I do feel though when getting powered that I need to increase the distance from the sail and lean more to decouple board inclination from body leaning out, otherwise you lean but the board and the rig come with you and you go upwind even if you don't need or whant to

I'm now using the longer Patrik race lines, moving from the NP race lines as I was always maxed out on length on them

they are expensive but are really worth it for the greater feeling of security and increased confidence, when conditions are difficult and you need to get the foil board under control. im using them for large sail and board foiling (8m 150litre board) and also for my mid wind (6- 5m 125 litre board) setup

For me there are too many variables to make general statements regarding harness line position and length. Over-powered v comfortable conditions, foil size, sail size, ability, seat versus waist harness, sail type (race/cammed, foil specific), rider height, rider weight, even board length could be a factor.
I sail salt water enclosed water (Lake Macquarie) mostly 1500 foil 4.7-5.5 sail Ezzy Hydra. Naish Micro & Slingshot 105 (super short). I use variable lines (24-30), shorter for cranking upwind, longer for free-ride/downwind/overpowered. Waist Harness. 75kg - 172cm short. I love carving, flowy sailing. In comfortable conditions I can sail "no hands", so balanced harness lines. The only time I go to forward line position is when overpowered (20+ knots) downwind and this is still very uncomfortable on a 1500 foil.
Just for credibility, I sailed 60 sessions in the first 3 months of this year, most of which were 60-90 minutes in duration without any rest. I rarely get take a swim and am foiling 99% of the time.
There is no way I'm taking advice from anyone that only sails gear that is significantly different to mine or is significantly different anthropometrics.
The one thing that I have noticed is that as I have have become more experienced I have a preference for slightly longer harness lines.
To answer the original post - how long is a piece of string?

Just long enough!

I'm trying to understand the physics of why long lines are so effective at speed off the wind. obviously you need to keep pressure on the mast to keep the nose down and board trimmed.
Body outboard to keep the windward rail down
body position could also help in a breach. more likely to low side crash
Overpowered and traditionally the rig is pulled more overhead giving perhaps a different amount of upward pull per gust that is unsettling on foil
better to have the sail vertical and not lifting the board.


anything else?

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berowne said..
I'm trying to understand the physics of why long lines are so effective at speed off the wind. obviously you need to keep pressure on the mast to keep the nose down and board trimmed.
Body outboard to keep the windward rail down
body position could also help in a breach. more likely to low side crash
Overpowered and traditionally the rig is pulled more overhead giving perhaps a different amount of upward pull per gust that is unsettling on foil
better to have the sail vertical and not lifting the board.


anything else?

I'm wondering if it's just simply leverage and keeping the legs bent to react quickly. With shorter lines wouldn't anyone be more up-outboard and with less range of motion in their legs with that leverage? Or they'd be more upright with less power. Also more outboard = more sideways pressure which isn't great for the foil maybe?

I've only been successful going close to a perfect 7 (although I'm not great at it) when going upwind. Downwind, I really feel a lot better low and reacting quickly like that, but I'm nowhere near as fast as you or the guys in the videos

Even upwind with race gear I have had bent lower legs if it's gusty otherwise I feel like I don't have control? Could be something else though. On freeride I can get pretty up and straight when going upwind. Even going downwind on freeride stuff my legs aren't as bendy. Freeride I'm on ~32in lines and race I'm running quite a bit longer.

See at 14:17 here, the other racers in front of him. Especially the guy upwind of him in front. He's going straight front to bent front rapidly to keep it in shape.
?t=857

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berowne said..
I'm trying to understand the physics of why long lines are so effective at speed off the wind. obviously you need to keep pressure on the mast to keep the nose down and board trimmed.
Body outboard to keep the windward rail down
body position could also help in a breach. more likely to low side crash
Overpowered and traditionally the rig is pulled more overhead giving perhaps a different amount of upward pull per gust that is unsettling on foil
better to have the sail vertical and not lifting the board.


anything else?

I think hight of the hook is the important factor
If you wanted to pull a tree over you would tie your rope to the top
If you wanted to anchor yourself to a tree you would tie it at the bottom

Just measured my lines are 500 for the light wind booms and 600mm for high winds.... measured from boom to max length.

So 40" and 47" equivalent!

harnessline.com are the longer ones.

I'd be interested if anyone has longer! And if so, where from!.

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RuddeBos said..
I'm now using the longer Patrik race lines, moving from the NP race lines as I was always maxed out on length on them

they are expensive but are really worth it for the greater feeling of security and increased confidence, when conditions are difficult and you need to get the foil board under control. im using them for large sail and board foiling (8m 150litre board) and also for my mid wind (6- 5m 125 litre board) setup

Hey Ruddebos (or anyone) what is the actual max length of the Patrik lines?

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berowne said..

RuddeBos said..
I'm now using the longer Patrik race lines, moving from the NP race lines as I was always maxed out on length on them

they are expensive but are really worth it for the greater feeling of security and increased confidence, when conditions are difficult and you need to get the foil board under control. im using them for large sail and board foiling (8m 150litre board) and also for my mid wind (6- 5m 125 litre board) setup

Hey Ruddebos (or anyone) what is the actual max length of the Patrik lines?

42, but you could get a few more inches if you remove one of the knots. But then you would need to stop to tighten them from the max position. (they have two knots on the rope, one is about 4inches from the end to act as stopper so you have a little rope to act as handle).

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Berowne said..

RuddeBos said..
I'm now using the longer Patrik race lines, moving from the NP race lines as I was always maxed out on length on them

they are expensive but are really worth it for the greater feeling of security and increased confidence, when conditions are difficult and you need to get the foil board under control. im using them for large sail and board foiling (8m 150litre board) and also for my mid wind (6- 5m 125 litre board) setup

Hey Ruddebos (or anyone) what is the actual max length of the Patrik lines?

Hi Berowne
the approximate lengths for the Patrik lines are
min length #1 32-42cm
my freeride setting #5 35-45cm
max length #7. 41-51cm












Hope that helps