I have said how well the forward harness line position has worked for me, and in gusty conditions above 14 knots or so forward lines work great with a 5.8 or smaller sail because the sail pivots easily to let a gust pass by and is also easy to keep sheeted in and powered up. But I have found in lighter winds with larger sails, it takes more work with my rear arm to keep the sail sheeted in and powered up. So now in lighter winds I slide the harness lines backwards to a more balanced position, and in gusty stronger conditions move them forward so they take the place of my front arm and really allow a 4.5 Phantom sail to automatically sheet out when a 25-30 knot gust hits the sail.

On the Maui Windsurfing boom I have, for forward lines the front half of the harness is at mark 4 and rear at mark 6.5. While with more balanced lines the front half is around 6.5 and rear is at 8, or even farther back for both.

some good ideas there, I'm new to foiling so still experimenting

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Adam in NSW said..
some good ideas there, I'm new to foiling so still experimenting

Thanks Adam, that is why I post!

The other thing is I do use the short harness lines, 23-1/2", regardless of where the harness lines are on the boom, as long as I am getting powered op on the kit in gusts and not slogging a lot.

Lines should be balanced. Why would you want to fight with the sail when you can fly without effort. Save you energy for carving and tricks!

Read it, think about it, and try it. If it works, great. If not, try something else.

Or read it and ignore it. It's your choice. But don't read it and diss it.

If people share their experiences, you might benefit. You might not. Nobody else cares except you.

This is not a keyboard sport. It's an empirical on-water sport.

There are so many variables that TRYing it is the only way to get it right. What's right for you is probably not right for somebody else. Who cares? It's your ride that matters to you. Have fun.

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Adam in NSW said..
some good ideas there, I'm new to foiling so still experimenting

Advice I was given years ago by a pillar of WA windsurfing community when I said "such and such (with a million posts) said do this on Seabreeze" - "never take windsurfing advice from someone you've never seen sail... Such and such can't even carve gybe. End of story".

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Faff said..

Adam in NSW said..
some good ideas there, I'm new to foiling so still experimenting

Advice I was given years ago by a pillar of WA windsurfing community when I said "such and such (with a million posts) said do this on Seabreeze" - "never take windsurfing advice from someone you've never seen sail... Such and such can't even carve gybe. End of story".

Wow, that is an interesting approach Fluff!!, the other approach is to try it for yourself and see if the "technique" works!, if it does say so, if it does not say so! And of course say what equipment you are trying the technique with. That is why I list what equipment I use. Of course, I am not telling anyone how to do anything, just saying what works for me, in my conditions, with my equipment.

But really, I can see your point Fluff, I mean sliding harnesslines around on the boom, well that takes a lot of time and effort, same for adjusting harness-line length maybe too? And how about my other post on mast base position, is that also too difficult for you to try, adjusting the mast base? Hope you are doing okay buddy, if that is too much trouble for you to do

Here are two pics, 1st one with forward lines on boom, 2nd one with balanced lines, in case boom markings differ by mfg. The marks on this boom start at 14.5" from center of boom head, and the marks are 2" apart. These are with Aerotech FreeSpeed sails and an AFS W95 foil.

Forward lines ends at 4 and 6.5 marks on boom for stronger winds and gusts, and heading upwind, from my day camp with Andy Brandt.


Balanced lines at 6.5 and 8 for light winds

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Adam in NSW said..

Grantmac said..

Adam in NSW said..
some good ideas there, I'm new to foiling so still experimenting

I'd recommend you follow advice from people who can actually foil well, rather than just post a lot of nonsense like Sandman does.
There are countless threads on this forum covering why his recommendations are usually the opposite of best practices.

I'm new here, I dont have time to read every post and work out the ****fights !

The only reason I engage at times and reply- preventing a newbie from wandering down a blind alley and wasting time.

Funny part is that he acts like he's the only one blocking people. Let's just say that my experience here has been significantly more tranquil the last few months.

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Sandman1221 said..

Faff said..

Adam in NSW said..
some good ideas there, I'm new to foiling so still experimenting

Advice I was given years ago by a pillar of WA windsurfing community when I said "such and such (with a million posts) said do this on Seabreeze" - "never take windsurfing advice from someone you've never seen sail... Such and such can't even carve gybe. End of story".

Wow, that is an interesting approach Fluff!!, the other approach is to try it for yourself and see if the "technique" works!, if it does say so, if it does not say so! And of course say what equipment you are trying the technique with. That is why I list what equipment I use. Of course, I am not telling anyone how to do anything, just saying what works for me, in my conditions, with my equipment.

But really, I can see your point Fluff, I mean sliding harnesslines around on the boom, well that takes a lot of time and effort, same for adjusting harness-line length maybe too? And how about my other post on mast base position, is that also too difficult for you to try, adjusting the mast base? Hope you are doing okay buddy, if that is too much trouble for you to do

Here are two pics, 1st one with forward lines on boom, 2nd one with balanced lines, in case boom markings differ by mfg. The marks on this boom start at 14.5" from center of boom head, and the marks are 2" apart. These are with Aerotech FreeSpeed sails and an AFS W95 foil.

Forward lines ends at 4 and 6.5 marks on boom for stronger winds and gusts, and heading upwind, from my day camp with Andy Brandt.


Balanced lines at 6.5 and 8 for light winds

"Works for me" - does this mean you are flying thru 99% of your gybes?

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Faff said..

Sandman1221 said..

Faff said..

Adam in NSW said..
some good ideas there, I'm new to foiling so still experimenting

Advice I was given years ago by a pillar of WA windsurfing community when I said "such and such (with a million posts) said do this on Seabreeze" - "never take windsurfing advice from someone you've never seen sail... Such and such can't even carve gybe. End of story".

Wow, that is an interesting approach Fluff!!, the other approach is to try it for yourself and see if the "technique" works!, if it does say so, if it does not say so! And of course say what equipment you are trying the technique with. That is why I list what equipment I use. Of course, I am not telling anyone how to do anything, just saying what works for me, in my conditions, with my equipment.

But really, I can see your point Fluff, I mean sliding harnesslines around on the boom, well that takes a lot of time and effort, same for adjusting harness-line length maybe too? And how about my other post on mast base position, is that also too difficult for you to try, adjusting the mast base? Hope you are doing okay buddy, if that is too much trouble for you to do

Here are two pics, 1st one with forward lines on boom, 2nd one with balanced lines, in case boom markings differ by mfg. The marks on this boom start at 14.5" from center of boom head, and the marks are 2" apart. These are with Aerotech FreeSpeed sails and an AFS W95 foil.

Forward lines ends at 4 and 6.5 marks on boom for stronger winds and gusts, and heading upwind, from my day camp with Andy Brandt.


Balanced lines at 6.5 and 8 for light winds

"Works for me" - does this mean you are flying thru 99% of your gybes?

Ah, did you read the title of the post Faff? I just double checked, the post is about harness line position on the boom. But I understand, you got this post confused with another post, has happened to me too!

But if you are flying through your gybes hooked in, well maybe you should make a post on that

So I use 23.5" harness lines with the forward lines (higher winds/smaller sails) and balanced lines (lighter winds/bigger sails) "until" I am in really light wind in the 9 knot range, then I find I need to use longer lines in the balanced line position to keep the sail more upright and powered up.

It is impossible with the Race-Foil-technique to use 23,5 harness lines.

You need long lines to put your body in the perfect deep position with bended knees.

I use 28-42 Patrik Race Vario Lines - most time 32-33 length.

All other good racefoiler I know or see, are using such long harness lines, too.

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t36 said..
It is impossible with the Race-Foil-technique to use 23,5 harness lines.

You need long lines to put your body in the perfect deep position with bended knees.

I use 28-42 Patrik Race Vario Lines - most time 32-33 length.

All other good racefoiler I know or see, are using such long harness lines, too.

t36 did you see me mention I was using a race foil? I am using an AFS W95 foil which is a freeride foil.

Sandman, what do you do when the wind increases? Do you lean back at all or you sheet out? Yesterday I shortened my lines to approx 25 inches to give it a try. Using a 6m freerace foil sail and an 800 race with with the 105 slalom fuselage. Since there was barely enough wind to fly, the short lines were okay because even if I had them longer, I would have not been able to lean on them (not enough sail power to hold my weight). I could have used my 8.5 sail instead and that would have allowed me to use longer lines.
I went for a second session when the wind picked up considerably to the point I was a little bit overpowered. I extended my lines to the maximum length, after 10 seconds of foiling, because there was no way I could use them short.
I guess you can get away with very short lines because you don't lean back at all (there is nothing wrong with it, BTW)

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Sandman1221 said..

t36 said..
It is impossible with the Race-Foil-technique to use 23,5 harness lines.

You need long lines to put your body in the perfect deep position with bended knees.

I use 28-42 Patrik Race Vario Lines - most time 32-33 length.

All other good racefoiler I know or see, are using such long harness lines, too.

t36 did you see me mention I was using a race foil? I am using an AFS W95 foil which is a freeride foil.

in your starting post - where did you mention freeride foiling at all? You are writing about windfoiling.

But you are posting a harness length of 23,5 - I don't know anyone - even freeride-windsurfer - who are still using such short harness line at all. You are misleading foil beginner with your posts. See posting nr. 2 in this thread.

But regarding so many threads and posts from you - it's a waste of time to argue with you.

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t36 said..

Sandman1221 said..

t36 said..
It is impossible with the Race-Foil-technique to use 23,5 harness lines.

You need long lines to put your body in the perfect deep position with bended knees.

I use 28-42 Patrik Race Vario Lines - most time 32-33 length.

All other good racefoiler I know or see, are using such long harness lines, too.

t36 did you see me mention I was using a race foil? I am using an AFS W95 foil which is a freeride foil.

in your starting post - where did you mention freeride foiling at all? You are writing about windfoiling.

But you are posting a harness length of 23,5 - I don't know anyone - even freeride-windsurfer - who are still using such short harness line at all. You are misleading foil beginner with your posts. See posting nr. 2 in this thread.

But regarding so many threads and posts from you - it's a waste of time to argue with you.

I learned to use short forward lines from a day camp with Andy Brandt, do you teach anything?

And regarding all my threads and posts, if they bother you so much why not just hide them?, what are you afraid?

Here I will hide you first, okay, does that make you feel better? Go ahead you can do it t36!

And of course I will not see any response you make, so technically I got the last word in, just saying!

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Sandman1221 said..

t36 said..

Sandman1221 said..

t36 said..
It is impossible with the Race-Foil-technique to use 23,5 harness lines.

You need long lines to put your body in the perfect deep position with bended knees.

I use 28-42 Patrik Race Vario Lines - most time 32-33 length.

All other good racefoiler I know or see, are using such long harness lines, too.

t36 did you see me mention I was using a race foil? I am using an AFS W95 foil which is a freeride foil.

in your starting post - where did you mention freeride foiling at all? You are writing about windfoiling.

But you are posting a harness length of 23,5 - I don't know anyone - even freeride-windsurfer - who are still using such short harness line at all. You are misleading foil beginner with your posts. See posting nr. 2 in this thread.

But regarding so many threads and posts from you - it's a waste of time to argue with you.

I learned to use short forward lines from a day camp with Andy Brandt, do you teach anything?

And regarding all my threads and posts, if they bother you so much why not just hide them?, what are you afraid?

Here I will hide you first, okay, does that make you feel better? Go ahead you can do it t36!

As nice as it would be to simply hide your posts, unfortunately it is necessary to hang around and ward off beginners from taking a lot of your "advice".

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Subsonic said..

Sandman1221 said..

t36 said..

Sandman1221 said..

t36 said..
It is impossible with the Race-Foil-technique to use 23,5 harness lines.

You need long lines to put your body in the perfect deep position with bended knees.

I use 28-42 Patrik Race Vario Lines - most time 32-33 length.

All other good racefoiler I know or see, are using such long harness lines, too.

t36 did you see me mention I was using a race foil? I am using an AFS W95 foil which is a freeride foil.

in your starting post - where did you mention freeride foiling at all? You are writing about windfoiling.

But you are posting a harness length of 23,5 - I don't know anyone - even freeride-windsurfer - who are still using such short harness line at all. You are misleading foil beginner with your posts. See posting nr. 2 in this thread.

But regarding so many threads and posts from you - it's a waste of time to argue with you.

I learned to use short forward lines from a day camp with Andy Brandt, do you teach anything?

And regarding all my threads and posts, if they bother you so much why not just hide them?, what are you afraid?

Here I will hide you first, okay, does that make you feel better? Go ahead you can do it t36!

As nice as it would be to simply hide your posts, unfortunately it is necessary to hang around and ward off beginners from taking a lot of your "advice".

Oh man, right, because you teach 100s of people a year "for a living" so are an expert, right? Good bye to you too!

But you two are sounding like you are in high school, just from what you say, that is what high school kids say. That is okay, I was in high school once too.

Sandman - you're blocking people and encouraging others to block you. Why keep filling up this forum with stuff, you could just buy a diary for your personal records.

I think most of us are interested in advice from dudes with some proven skills.

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azymuth said..
Sandman - you're blocking people and encouraging others to block you. Why keep filling up this forum with stuff, you could just buy a diary for your personal records.

I think most of us are interested in advice from dudes with some proven skills.

And you are in high school too? Unfortunately I am not going to find out the answer to that question!

So back to the topic!
To anyone who has actually tried changing the position and length of their harness lines, please let me any everyone else know what equipment you are on and what you have actually done!

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WillyWind said..
Sandman, what do you do when the wind increases? Do you lean back at all or you sheet out? Yesterday I shortened my lines to approx 25 inches to give it a try. Using a 6m freerace foil sail and an 800 race with with the 105 slalom fuselage. Since there was barely enough wind to fly, the short lines were okay because even if I had them longer, I would have not been able to lean on them (not enough sail power to hold my weight). I could have used my 8.5 sail instead and that would have allowed me to use longer lines.
I went for a second session when the wind picked up considerably to the point I was a little bit overpowered. I extended my lines to the maximum length, after 10 seconds of foiling, because there was no way I could use them short.
I guess you can get away with very short lines because you don't lean back at all (there is nothing wrong with it, BTW)

I did, it didn't work that well for me :)

there is a much more convenient and efficient adjustment system than moving your harness lines forward (or backwards) depending on wind strength: using your body weight

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Sandman1221 said..
So back to the topic!
To anyone who has actually tried changing the position and length of their harness lines, please let me any everyone else know what equipment you are on and what you have actually done!

Well, I'm on Severne Alien & Redwing.
Had a day recently where I couldn't get comfortable, turned out my lines were too far forward, once balanced all was good, 30" lines and could go longer.
Same setup as finning really??

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bel29 said..
there is a much more convenient and efficient adjustment system than moving your harness lines forward (or backwards) depending on wind strength: using your body weight

Well in my experience with my kit, in gusty conditions over 14 knots, having the harness lines forward makes it very easy to head hard upwind, and also to let a gust go by because the pivot point for the sail is farther forward and that gives me more sheeting out range. With balanced harness lines in gusty conditions it is so easy for a gust to make me breach because I can not sheet out as easily or as far, it is also harder to head upwind.

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Sandman1221 said..

Well in my experience with my kit, in gusty conditions over 14 knots, having the harness lines forward makes it very easy to head hard upwind, and also to let a gust go by because the pivot point for the sail is farther forward and that gives me more sheeting out range. With balanced harness lines in gusty conditions it is so easy for a gust to make me breach because I can not sheet out as easily or as far, it is also harder to head upwind.

If you're breaching on a gust I'd say that your harness lines are too short and you're bringing the mast/rig too far to windward. When the gust hits the sail is lifting you up and causing the breach. With longer lines you can lean out but keep the rig more vertical.

I find find that gusts cause me to touch down rather than breach because of the increased thrust forcing the nose down. Sheeting out too much in a gust can also cause a breach. The lack of forward thrust or even back pressure on the sail will cause the nose to rise.

Aiming for perfectly balanced lines was the best piece of advice I got on this forum (WhiteOfHeart I think?)

agree (and it has been said so many times before that I don't know why I'm still typing this): your lines are too short. also, if you want to more easily sheet in/out while hooked in, put your lines closer together.

Thanks for the feed back guys!, all I can say is in 14-30 knots the forward and short lines work great!, have never come even close to breaching with the AFS S670 cm2 wing in very gusty 18-30 knot conditions. I also tend to use the smallest sail for the conditions, and in my experience that size sail can not support me when leaning out with long lines, that is why I have short lines, I do not lean out as far and then the sail can support me.

The other thing about forward lines is they really give control over my speed, sheet in and I accelerate, sheet out and let a gust go by. With balanced lines even close together the pivot point of the sail is farther back and so do not have as much sheeting range. Now in sub ~13 knots balanced lines are great because I do not have to sheet in so much, and that makes long flights easier especially because I am using a larger sail.

Not sure why I am wading into this quagmire of misinformation, but here goes...

If you are sheeting out in the gusts, you are doing it wrong. Get your gear tuned properly and stay sheeted in.

Many have tried to convince Sandy to see the error of his ways.
All have failed.

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Subsonic said..
Many have tried to convince Sandy to see the error of his ways.
All have failed.

Breaking News: Horse dies of thirst after being led to water hole.

Sandman - that AFS F800/1080 wing that you can't/won't ride in winds above 20? Here it is in action under my massive 63 kg in 25-30 kts. Because of my size, I run the freeride gear around 26-27 but race gear is closer to 30+. This is why we run balanced lines and longer lines.



On a gentler day. No need to have to go down in wing size. The F800/1080 is a wonderful wing to play in swell (similar to SAB 799)