I've asked the question before but wingfoiling seems more popular and equipment has advanced - has anyone stopped windfoiling and now just wing ? Attraction to me is less gear ? I am foiling on freeride gear - slingshot board and foil - have tried winging but found it awkward and missed. Probably should ask on wing thread but would get biased answer !!

Tried winging because of how easy the gear is to transport. Just didn't feel the stoke and now I'm back to windfoiling.

Some guys over here have sold all windsurf foil kit to become umbrella dancers.

Hell no. The speed you can carry into a turn with a sail is much greater than on a wing. Further more you can use the sail to carve harder when on the wave.
I believe the new Olympic foil class will get more kids into wind foiling also. To be honest, I'm not a fan of course racing, who wants to carry around a big 1m wide barge?
Free ride wind foiling is here to stay. I'd like to eventually see competitive wave wind foiling to push the sport further and get more youth involved.

You are subject to selection bias. If you want a better answer, you'll need to ask in the winging forum.

I'm going to be trying winging this coming summer (I live in the northern half), but from what I've seen on the lighter end, the speed differential is too great for winging to be my go to. It's not about going fast per se but the acceleration in 8-12 that thrills me.

Plus, as Guru4 said, until the wings come up with an equivalent to a powered up hard carving jibe, windfoil is still on my menu.

Windsurfing is my fav, foiling 2nd. So for me winging means more gear than windfoiling, not less

I do both and there is an obvious bias against winging here, which is to be expected. With the introduction of HA foils into winging wingers can go fast on a foil. If you're into jumping wingers are getting much higher jumps off of smaller waves. Not many wind foilers are doing tacks on foil but lots of wingers are. As wingers progress, especially with pumping technique, they can wing in super low winds -- the trick is to get on foil.

Tricks are for kids -- and the kids are getting into winging:



Speed!



Jumping off of small waves:



Here's one of the best wind foilers showing what can be done with a wing!

I've stopped windfoiling and sold it all I only wing and slap I love winging maybe in a year or two I might get another freeride setup up again but not any time soon
I'm enjoying the waves and open ocean so much more and can get foiling just as early as windfoil
the manoeuvrebility is hard to beat I can gybe in 10 to 15 meters distance point to point and so on while not loosing ground nothing else can do that

My wife switched fully from windfoiling to winging. She'll sell her windfoil gear, and is thinking about selling her freestyle gear. She still enjoys windsurfing on slalom gear when the conditions are right.

I have tried winging, and got up on the foil a few times. But while I wanted to try windfoiling again after the first few sessions, even though the flying times were extremely short and the crashes big, I did not get the same feeling with the wing. I'll stick with windfoiling for now.

Watching others at Bird Island in Corpus Christi in the last few weeks, I have seen that some of the supposed weaknesses of wingfoiling are just myths, probably arising from watching beginners.

1. Low end: The low end of a typical wing setup is at least comparable to a freeride foil setup. There were several sessions where my wife was perfectly happy on her 5.4 m wing, while I was mostly slogging with a 6.5 m sail. On freeride windsurf gear, we'd be about evenly powered on 5.4 and 6.5. On slalom gear, she'd be on a 5.6 when I am on 6.3.

2. Top speed: The few times I was able to convince my wife to put a GPS on, her top speeds were pretty close to my top speeds with a sail on the same foil. Another winger who was on a Moses wing (not sure which one) was definitely faster than all the windfoilers out there, who mostly were on Slingshot foils. His skills were decent, but not outstanding. Apparently, wingers are now going towards high aspect foils, too. But they need some basic winging skills first. Sounds familiar?

3. Speed in turns: Jibing on a foil is fun because you can keep so much speed. On a slapper, keeping 50% of your speed is very good; windfoiling, 60% is pretty easy, and 70% is possible. But after watching some windfoilers and some wingers learn, learning to foil jibe seems definitely easier with a wing. I've seen several wingers foil through most of their jibes within a few weeks of starting to work on it. For most windfoilers I watched, foiling though takes a lot longer (even if they learn much quicker than I do ). On a good day, I keep about 60-65% of my speed in my better wind foil jibes, and occasionally 70%. With the wing, my wife gets about 70% in most of her better foil jibes. And tacks? Maybe Balz can foil through duck tacks, but everyone else sets the board onto the water in tacks. Foiling through tacks on a wing is harder than jibing, but can be learned within a few months. I've seen it happen.

That said, I have revised my opinion about the range of winging vs. windfoiling a bit. When my wife had only one wing, she'd be perfectly happy with it in 12 to 30 knots. Now that she has three, and usually one that is her favorite, she has gotten a lot pickier, and even started complaining about the wind being "to strong" when it gusts above 20 knots and she wants to use her big (5.4) wing. I have seen other wingers switch wings, too, when the wind changed a bit, and complain about wind quality during sessions where I was perfectly fine with one sail. Being on a big, forgiving windfoil board that can either be sailed "stand on top" style with a small, barely powered sail, or hanging out with a nicely powered sail, can give you a range that's at least comparable to what wingers have.

Only real drawback of wing is real light wind, and sites that require a long slog out and back, in breezes of 2-5 to get to 10+ winds.
Or you stay out to the end, and the wind drops to a breeze of -5.

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LeeD said..
Only real drawback of wing is real light wind, and sites that require a long slog out and back, in breezes of 2-5 to get to 10+ winds.
Or you stay out to the end, and the wind drops to a breeze of -5.

much easier to swim/paddle back with the wing too if needed

Here at Berkeley Ca., we often see good wingers paddling their gear back to the shore, upwind or downwind.
Typical day requires a 200 yard slog to the wind line.
That means 1-5 knot breeze for 200 yards, then solid 12-25 k ot wind for 2 miles.

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thedoor said..

LeeD said..
Only real drawback of wing is real light wind, and sites that require a long slog out and back, in breezes of 2-5 to get to 10+ winds.
Or you stay out to the end, and the wind drops to a breeze of -5.

much easier to swim/paddle back with the wing too if needed

Quite the opposite. In a few months I witnessed at least five close calls (as in: "should we call the coast guard"?) involving wings. "Walks of shame" are daily events ... Wings are simply dead on the water if the wind drops, and if you find yourself downwind, or there is any current, you are doomed.

They look fun though, if VERY slow, and they are making Kites disappear, which is a BIG plus to decrease congestion on the water! They also made the resale value of my wind-foil equipment very low ... just when I was considering getting rid of it!

A trio if former Cal Cup racers here in Berkeley are winging with 900sq cm foils. They are not slow.
The handful of wingers using 1500-2400 foils ARE incredibly slow, but happy.

Windfoilers definitely have a better low-end, on the same size foil and sail size. Wingers are often using massive 2000-2500cm foils which do get them going in light winds, but equally windfoilers using massive highlift wings will get going in even lighter winds.

With my i76 and 5.3 I can get going in maybe 11kts. The good wingers with much bigger foils and 5-6m wings can get going in similar winds, but most pack up and go home.

I think there are advantages to both. I do think that a lot of the windsurf manufacturers have focused on free-race type designs with outboard straps, rather than wave/freestyle type windfoil boards. Using the former in swell is like trying to wavesail a slalom board, so of course a wingboard will be much more fun than these designs in terms of maneuverability. However well-designed windfoil boards are equally throw-about and fun on flat water and waves (my SS FS115 is in my opinion the perfect windfoil board design for this).

The reason I wingfoil is for the swell riding, something windfoil will never match. Yes you can compare them on flat water, but that's about it, they really are different sports. Probably more suited to surfers/sup riders looking for a wind sport than windfoilers changing sports.
This video posted in the wing forum shows the advantages for swell riding.

Is winging a good entry level to get into kiting?

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MagicRide said..
Is winging a good entry level to get into kiting?

I would say the opposite. Lots of kiters getting into winging.

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airsail said..
The reason I wingfoil is for the swell riding, something windfoil will never match. Yes you can compare them on flat water, but that's about it, they really are different sports. Probably more suited to surfers/sup riders looking for a wind sport than windfoilers changing sports.
This video posted in the wing forum shows the advantages for swell riding.

Epic video (music and riding)

Windfoiling is closer to wave sailing than surfing. Wingfoiling appears to be much more like surfing than wavesailing.

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MagicRide said..
Is winging a good entry level to get into kiting?

Kiting is very different, and bloody expensive. Extras on top of winging include lessons $600, kite $700, bar $700, tt to learn on $800, almost 3k and as dejavu said, many go the opposite way.

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airsail said..
The reason I wingfoil is for the swell riding, something windfoil will never match. Yes you can compare them on flat water, but that's about it, they really are different sports. Probably more suited to surfers/sup riders looking for a wind sport than windfoilers changing sports.
This video posted in the wing forum shows the advantages for swell riding.

Comparing with wingers of similar skill and TOW on our artificial reef in a reasonable swell - our turns and wave rides are similar.
We don't have an equivalent ocean windfoiler of James Casey's standard (in the video) - he's a pro-waterman and SUP coach.

After downwinding with numerous wingers in all size windswells, I reckon we've got the advantage - more speed and carving power.
Sure we can flag the sail and just ride the windswells but it's heaps more fun to use the sail power and s-turn at speed banking off the swells

I know of only one freeride foiler who got to a high standard windfoiling in the ocean before also winging (Jonah ) - I'll ask him to write down his thoughts.

I was out on my local bay with two kite foilers and two wingers, I was windfoiling, 10-13 knots for the day, wingers were out for maybe an hour and then left, kitefoliers were out for 3 hrs and then left with one that had their single skin kite touch the water 3/4 mile out and then had to drift into shore with the wet kite balled up, I was in and out for 4 hrs!

Winging takes a lot more energy from what I see.

Got to add, winging is piss easy to learn, bugger if I know how long it would take to get to a similar standard kite or windfoiling. Probably not too bad if your a kiter or windsurfer already but hell of a learning curve if not.

Thanks - kind of what I thought - I might buy some gear and see what I use and enjoy the most - I'm gonna need a bigger shed !

Im 70% wingfoil, 20% kitefoil and 10% windfoil now (with 95% windfoil and 5% wingfoil in 2019). I think the most efficient way to foil is kitefoiling, you just always have that power to get you up on the foil on standby, while the kite remains light. Its like having a wing fully powered or on the front handle in feathering mode with the pull and push of the bar. The drawback is that in my opinion the hardest to learn aswell (sailing towards the kite for example in a jibe is a little problematic the first 10000 tried as it will fall from the sky if you make a mistake and then you're screwed) and less suited for riding swells. The big appeal from wingfoiling is that its just soo easy & light. It took me just 2 sessions to get the jibing under my belt, after that its just relaxing and fun, carving down little windswells on my lake, pumping a little to keep flying etc. Windfoiling is heavier, less manouvrable and faster, my record on the windfoil is 58kph at the moment, using the same foil for winging I barely pushed 40kph.

The way I see it, Winging in waves is akin to surfing or more specifically surf foiling. Whereas Windfoiling in waves is akin to wave windsurfing where the sail allows for big power turns.

I know of a few former windfoilers who went over to winging, and plan never to return.

I also know of a couple former kitefoilers who switched to winging.

I also have met several wingers who started winging from scratch, meaning no other wind sports prior.

with harness lines adjusted properly to carry the sail pressure, I can lean back and cruise on a windfoil with very little effort but admittedly that has taken a lot of practice, with winging you are always expending energy unless you use a harness but I have never seen a winger use a harness in person. I had a guy try to sell me his wing, when I was windfoiling. And I know another guy, a long time kite foiler of 20+ yrs who took up winging, but after his first exhausting session he has not been back.

reefwarriors.wordpress.com/2019/12/10/wingy-dingy-thingy-vs-wwf-comparison/

Cruising with little effort on a freeride windfoil is indeed quite easy. I rarely used a harness in my first 100 or so windfoil session, and still regard it as optional. But when windsurfing in planing conditions, I'm in the harness 99% of the time.

How strenuous winging is depends a lot on skill level. The first few sessions can be exhausting, and you better be willing to look like a fool. But I have seen good wingers without a harness be out as long or longer than most windsurfers and windfoilers, in all kinds of wind. The only winger who wore a harness explained that he likes it because it makes power transmission much more direct. He happened to be the one who was faster than all other wingers and windfoilers on the water. Sounds a bit like using body tension and a rigid stance when windsurfing.

I think the surf comparison is accurate, I'm crap at that too and dislike it.
I did ~15 sessions with the wing and by the last it felt like I was forcing myself to go to the beach. I think it's only simple to learn if you have excellent balance which I absolutely do not.