I've read a few times that certain racing foils are good for upwind/downwind but difficult for beam reaches. I think some manufacturers also use this kind of description in their product literature. What is it about a racing foil/wing that makes it difficult for reaching?

Secondly, I can see how a wide board with a fairly straight outline would be good for upwind. Is there anything about these shapes that are particularly bad for beam reaches or slalom? Lastly, for foiling in 10 to 25 knots, what factors would make a 65kg person choose a 75cm board vs 80cm?

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shmish said..
I've read a few times that certain racing foils are good for upwind/downwind but difficult for beam reaches. I think some manufacturers also use this kind of description in their product literature. What is it about a racing foil/wing that makes it difficult for reaching?

It's the wing position/lift center further forwardE.g. 115+ fuse w/ 900 wing is quite difficult to hold down unless you get a good angle to the wind. You tilt the board into the wind and get the wing working lateral to force you upwind.

With downwind you have more lift and thus you can go deeper when you lose power from your apparent wind dropping

Both of these things make it pretty scary to start pushing for more speed on beam reaches in both the front and rear straps on race boards, and you have to get used to really hanging off the boom with your weight all the way forward. It's intimidating. Using the 95+, which has less power, feels like easy mode in comparison but the ability to get hard upwind/downwind is just not the same.

In fact a direct comparison of my IQ gear to the slingshot gear it's apparent that the slingshot doesn't point anywhere near as well as the IQ gear. Very noticeable difference.

The full IQ setup includes a 95 plus fuse. Is the intention to use that for slalom?

For 8-12kts, I suppose I could use the 115+ for reaching. But, much more than that and reaches get terrifying, especially in any kind of chop. Could I just swap to the 95+ and go out blasting on reaches?

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lwalker said..
The full IQ setup includes a 95 plus fuse. Is the intention to use that for slalom?

For 8-12kts, I suppose I could use the 115+ for reaching. But, much more than that and reaches get terrifying, especially in any kind of chop. Could I just swap to the 95+ and go out blasting on reaches?

8-12kts (115+) is almost relaxing for me if I'm on flat water on just about any foiling point of sail. I only struggle when the wind is disproportionately low for the amount of chop in a bay here.

I have only used the 95+ a couple of times and it was a lot easier to prevent breaching on a reach but due to the shorter fuselage, it wasn't as stable. Had to be careful with the twitchiness but it was a lot less scary when fully powered than the 115+. I'm thinking of day when I didn't even need to pump really to get flying on the 95+, which meant it was probably gusting well.

I'd like to run it again on higher winds but conditions here have been too stormy with lightning to get a lot of days in.

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aeroegnr said..

shmish said..
I've read a few times that certain racing foils are good for upwind/downwind but difficult for beam reaches. I think some manufacturers also use this kind of description in their product literature. What is it about a racing foil/wing that makes it difficult for reaching?

It's the wing position/lift center further forwardE.g. 115+ fuse w/ 900 wing is quite difficult to hold down unless you get a good angle to the wind. You tilt the board into the wind and get the wing working lateral to force you upwind.

With downwind you have more lift and thus you can go deeper when you lose power from your apparent wind dropping

Both of these things make it pretty scary to start pushing for more speed on beam reaches in both the front and rear straps on race boards, and you have to get used to really hanging off the boom with your weight all the way forward. It's intimidating. Using the 95+, which has less power, feels like easy mode in comparison but the ability to get hard upwind/downwind is just not the same.

In fact a direct comparison of my IQ gear to the slingshot gear it's apparent that the slingshot doesn't point anywhere near as well as the IQ gear. Very noticeable difference.

Very good description. One other point is that upwind (like downwind) is a lower speed than reaching so the power one needs to control underfoot is less. LIkewise, at those lower speeds having more power underfoot is helpful.

Good information to know guys, I usually am on beam reaches/cross wind so definitely do not want to get a foil that makes that difficult.

Wimp that I am, I only sheet in fully, hooked, going hard upwind.
The other 75% of my windfoiling is unhooked and sheeted out.

Nico Goyard used his 115+ fuselage on the iqFoil, for his speed competition at Silvaplana to go 32+ Kts.

Nico Goyard used his 115+ fuselage on the iqFoil, for his speed competition at Silvaplana to go 32+ Kts.

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RuddeBos said..
Nico Goyard used his 115+ fuselage on the iqFoil, for his speed competition at Silvaplana to go 32+ Kts.

Wonder what his shim was. Looks like he didn't say. Also from the pic, looks like the mast base is pretty centered.

Would like to see that specific video honestly, as there are aspects to stance that I'm curious about.

Also, he may have added weights during that speed run...

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Sandman1221 said..
Good information to know guys, I usually am on beam reaches/cross wind so definitely do not want to get a foil that makes that difficult.

If you get a chance with someone on a race foil, notice the angles they are getting. To me it makes exploring areas that I wouldn't want to go on a fin or even freeride gear much more possible, because I know that there's a much larger wind range that I can stay foiling with and a much larger angle to go downwind and upwind. You start seeing sailing a different way because you aren't stuck w/ mowing the lawn if you want to stay planing in lighter winds.

However, the guys out there grabbing and carving waves blow my mind because they also get a lot of freedom of movement and direction because of it. We just don't unfortunately get conditions like that very often here.

Upwind is ridiculously easy on the IQ setup, as in, if I'm not careful I end up too far upwind and instead of reaching I end up zig-zagging on the same tack since I'm not able to stay up while jibing yet.

At some point I'm just going to scream upwind and then try jibing all the way back over and over until I make some foiling jibes, and that'll make exploring so easy. Right now if the wind is light, or even starting to pick up, I rarely crash as long as I'm warmed up, I just come off the foil on the jibes and have to pump a bit to get going again. But, I can't remember a case where I had to worry about getting too downwind on that setup, as it's just so easy to go upwind in even the worst, gustiest conditions.

Here is a long video of almost perfect conditions, but check out specifically the ground trace of the GPS track and the part after ~11:00. I pass that boat then turn upwind around 11:55 after going on a downwind run. The angle there is pretty large, and you can also see/hear the difference in speed as well. I still have lots to learn here and other people than me can go faster and push more angle with this gear, but that freedom of movement to turn that hard and stay up on the foil still blows my mind.

Makes me wonder what the 115++ would do, as that's got even more capability.

aeroegnr
Someday, find a spot with flat, flat water and force yourself to do figure eights - foil a few hundred yds/m. and jibe. Over and over. Especially with a big sail, you have to spot the exit and make your exit going downwind. Plus all the other usual tips. A lot of times trying to jibe on downwind runs, for me at least, it's almost harder to jibe on the shallower downwind angles than from a reach. Probably a bit to do with less speed entering. And don't be shy about putting on a smaller sail until it becomes muscle memory. It may be easier to sort out with a 6.5 or 7 with less swing weight.

You are absolutely correct how foiling in general and race kit change the way you see your sailing area.

A ++ just exaggerates the behaviour of a +. Even more front foot pressure, even better lift up and down and even scarier on a reach. The only foil I've been on where I can stand front foot in front of the straps still foiling.

About Nico reaching with a +. Well, it's Nico. He reaches in PWA races where his pro peers are blowing up.

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Paducah said..
aeroegnr
Someday, find a spot with flat, flat water and force yourself to do figure eights - foil a few hundred yds/m. and jibe. Over and over. Especially with a big sail, you have to spot the exit and make your exit going downwind. Plus all the other usual tips. A lot of times trying to jibe on downwind runs, for me at least, it's almost harder to jibe on the shallower downwind angles than from a reach. Probably a bit to do with less speed entering. And don't be shy about putting on a smaller sail until it becomes muscle memory. It may be easier to sort out with a 6.5 or 7 with less swing weight.

You are absolutely correct how foiling in general and race kit change the way you see your sailing area.

A ++ just exaggerates the behaviour of a +. Even more front foot pressure, even better lift up and down and even scarier on a reach. The only foil I've been on where I can stand front foot in front of the straps still foiling.

About Nico reaching with a +. Well, it's Nico. He reaches in PWA races where his pro peers are blowing up.

Thank you, hopefully I can do that soon. Lots of lightning here for a while and it's killed almost all the days I could be out. I've taken the IQ out with a 6.6 camless freerace before and it felt so easy in comparison, but it needs more wind for sure, but it doesn't quite feel as locked in.

The foiling out of the front strap scares me a bit, seems like it would really help in light wind though.

Also, I really think Nico had weight. I can't tell where he is in this video but clearly he's moving quick and it looks like he's got something more than just the impact vest and harness there...Also notice the board tilt. I want to see a video of this though, as it will make things more clear.

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shmish said..
I've read a few times that certain racing foils are good for upwind/downwind but difficult for beam reaches. I think some manufacturers also use this kind of description in their product literature. What is it about a racing foil/wing that makes it difficult for reaching?

"Racing foils" typically refers to foils for upwind/downwind racing, where angle and speed to the wind determine who wins - so the whole setup is optimized for upwind/downwind. To get the best angles and speeds, you need tons of power from the sail and the foil. The board is always at an angle to the water surface, even on a downwind run, which allows for controlling power by adjusting the board angle (steeper in gusts to reduce upward lift).

If you get overpowered on a freeride foil, the same principles apply - it's usually a lot easier to go upwind or downwind than on a beam reach. Similarly, if you sail a race foil "slow", for example with a smaller sail so that you have just enough power to get going, the upwind and downwind angles you can go are reduced, and foiling on a beam reach becomes easier. But that does not work too well because you're close to the stall speed of the foil.

It would be cool to see a comparison of angles for an upwind/downwind race setup and a slalom race setup. Slalom foils are a lot smaller, and it seems they are often used with smaller sails. At the PWA races in Israel, 500 cm2 wings were common, and Nico Goyard used an even smaller one. IIRC, sails sometimes were on sails in the 7 m range. The angles in slalom races are typically a lot smaller than in upwind/downwind races; if the wind shifts a bit, some legs can be close to beam reaches. There was at least one race where the guys on fins had a bit of a hard time making all marks due to wind shifts.

I use the iQFoil with the 1000 wing and the 115 plus fuselage. At around 15 knots I can swap the 1000 for the 650 slalom wing and beam reaching is way easier. You don't need to point upwind like with the 1000. BTW, I am not a fast sailor, I just use whatever makes me feel comfortable and have fun.

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aeroegnr said..
The foiling out of the front strap scares me a bit, seems like it would really help in light wind though.

If you were referring to my comment about ++ fuses, I was not doing it intentionally. I had too much stab angle in about 12 knots and I was trying to get it to settle down on a run. It was quite unsettling.

If you can find a cammed 6.5 or 7, you may find some of the instability go away. Even a pretty stable camless will still tension and relax as the wind varies and you can feel it in the trim. The effect is less pronounced in smaller sails with their shorter booms.

I feel your pain about the summer doldrums. It's going to take me a few weeks to shake the cobwebs off after ours.

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WillyWind said..
I use the iQFoil with the 1000 wing and the 115 plus fuselage. At around 15 knots I can swap the 1000 for the 650 slalom wing and beam reaching is way easier. You don't need to point upwind like with the 1000. BTW, I am not a fast sailor, I just use whatever makes me feel comfortable and have fun.

Yes I'm close to pulling the trigger on that 650 myself

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Paducah said..

aeroegnr said..
The foiling out of the front strap scares me a bit, seems like it would really help in light wind though.

If you were referring to my comment about ++ fuses, I was not doing it intentionally. I had too much stab angle in about 12 knots and I was trying to get it to settle down on a run. It was quite unsettling.

Ahh that will make a difference!

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Paducah said..

aeroegnr said..
The foiling out of the front strap scares me a bit, seems like it would really help in light wind though.

If you can find a cammed 6.5 or 7, you may find some of the instability go away. Even a pretty stable camless will still tension and relax as the wind varies and you can feel it in the trim. The effect is less pronounced in smaller sails with their shorter booms.

I feel your pain about the summer doldrums. It's going to take me a few weeks to shake the cobwebs off after ours.

Yeah I'm thinking about that. Likely a wing first and then maybe another sail. Not sure if I want another hyperglide or to experiment with a cammed sail that compromises between foil and fin slalom for those really windy days here.

With my AFS W95 and F1080/F770 wings I can go 45 degrees or less upwind sheeted in, so I can explore the bay I foil on, have fast downwind runs sheeted out, and fast crosswind runs sheeted for the wind. So not sure how much more upwind I need or will get with a race foil.

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aeroegnr said..
Yeah I'm thinking about that. Likely a wing first and then maybe another sail. Not sure if I want another hyperglide or to experiment with a cammed sail that compromises between foil and fin slalom for those really windy days here.

FG 7.0 would be nice but, if money matters a lot, keep an eye out for just a 2 cam freeride sail from 10, 15 or even 20 years ago. Ezzy Lions aren't my cup of tea for foiling (nice for a fin, though) but Gaastra, Pryde, North, etc would work and a lot of them have a surprisingly short boom length vs more current sails. I'd stay away from a full blown slalom sail though for a lot of reasons (weight, rotation, loose leech, longer boom).

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Sandman1221 said..
With my AFS W95 and F1080/F770 wings I can go 45 degrees or less upwind sheeted in, so I can explore the bay I foil on, have fast downwind runs sheeted out, and fast crosswind runs sheeted for the wind. So not sure how much more upwind I need or will get with a race foil.

Ahh yeah that's right. That's gotta have better performance than my slingshot foils, closer to the IQ foil with the 95+ fuselage.

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aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..
With my AFS W95 and F1080/F770 wings I can go 45 degrees or less upwind sheeted in, so I can explore the bay I foil on, have fast downwind runs sheeted out, and fast crosswind runs sheeted for the wind. So not sure how much more upwind I need or will get with a race foil.

Ahh yeah that's right. That's gotta have better performance than my slingshot foils, closer to the IQ foil with the 95+ fuselage.

Okay, good to know, after I shimmed the stabilizer perfectly level with front wing my upwind angles improved, so much so that I was getting farther upwind than I wanted!

Exactly my problem the past 2 years.
Even with the 600 front foil, at 72 kg, breeze 10-18, 4.2 sail. I always spend 70% of my foil time riding windswells downwind.
Hooked in, maybe 20% of the foiling time.

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LeeD said..
Exactly my problem the past 2 years.
Even with the 600 front foil, at 72 kg, breeze 10-18, 4.2 sail. I always spend 70% of my foil time riding windswells downwind.
Hooked in, maybe 20% of the foiling time.

What it does allow me to do is gybe, instead of tack, upwind, now I just need a good day to practice my foiling gybe, once I get that down will not need to tack.

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LeeD said..
Exactly my problem the past 2 years.
Even with the 600 front foil, at 72 kg, breeze 10-18, 4.2 sail. I always spend 70% of my foil time riding windswells downwind.
Hooked in, maybe 20% of the foiling time.

I'm wondering if your harness lines are too short and if that front wing is too small to be controllable for that speed.

Harness line adj, set at 26", and very loose harness straps. Longer just strains my arms.
I fly at 15 with a super downhauled 4.2., well past the manufacturer's max setting.
If gusts hit 20, I'm on 3.7 way powered.

Bud of mine, 70 kg., uses a 450 front wing 70% of his days.

But with wings, I need a 6.0 Naish when I'd be foiling without pumping on a 4.2 wave sail.