I went out on my 114 wizard yesterday. I like it for winging but in typical winds here it doesn't seem to be quite enough volume for me when using a sail. Winging I can shlogg it upwind, sailing it and pulling up the sail is a battle much more difficult than my 115 dyno due to the short nose and probably the foil weight.

I was thinking about my possibly swapping it with something a little more volume, like a Stingray/Alien or one of the other boards. Or just keeping it for winging and getting good. But I think I've already got too many boards as is.

Are there boards that can support freeride/slingshot type foils and 105+/95+ race fuses with smaller slalom wings and ~7.5 and below? Seems like a narrower board with the race foils will be good for when it's strong vs. the wide 95 board. And, I really want do more freeride foiling. I got the wizard thinking it would be floaty enough but the volume distribution is difficult for me to uphaul in chop, not bad to waterstart, but I need solid wind (which is quite rare) to get up in anything but flat water conditions here.

Am I asking too much for a dedicated foil board that can do both?

I also could try using the Blast 145 for freeride foiling again, but that also means swapping out the strap positions for it. It is good, but I also am not sure if it is really suitable for a slalom foil. I'm also wary of moving the straps too much after stripping out a couple of inserts on my big Link windsup. I think I'll also need a separate aluminum mast in that case due to the SB tuttle head being so deep, in order to use it on the Blast. Looks like it actually fits inside the Blast actually. So no mast needed. Maybe I just need to experiment with the slalom foil in the Blast.

I keep my board inventory very simple (200lbs/90kg) to 2 boards!

Wizard 130 for all wind foiling, this covers all winds from 10 to 35 mph, yes its much wider than the W114 but it still turns amazingly well when the wind is up. When I launch in 2-3ft shore dump and the wind is light I wouldn't be able to use the W114 as you have to uphaul in very confused seas and there is no wind to water start.

Wingcraft 90 for all winging, I use this board for 12-30mph, like wind foiling I am not messing about trying to get my weight and balance in the right spot to get going, I am up on my feet and pumping the foil.

Easy selections, no fussing and wondering "what if" whilst on the water, I am covered for every wind and water state.

I think using the W114 is fine in the beginning for winging but it wont be long before you will want a dedicated wing board. With regards to using a slalom-esq foil they are designed for wide boards where you are hiking off the rail. The Wizard 130 and Phantasm foil is as fast as you want to hold on with the benefit of carving when there is swell to play in.

Sounds like you need a board with tracks and tuttle?

the wizard 130 or levitator should be able to handle slalom type sails but they do not have tuttle boxes.

Maybe a Patrik AIO WS. Has Tuttle and US tracks, sensible volumes and a proper mast track on top unlike many boards with screw fittings.
But it's quite short. I have the wing only version which will take my Armstrong foil quiver in the US boxes and also my AFS foils in the Tuttle. The tracks on the 5'9" are staggered to suit the foil types.
But I decided on wing only and bought a Patrik Foil Ride for windfoiling specifically.

2022 Fanatic Stingray LTD 130 @ 76cm wide & 209cm long would be my choice for free ride with track and deep tuttle. Great wing board too. Might take some time to get it. Try out the Blast with your SB foil and see how it feels.

Even older Stingrays had both tracks and tuttle. My goto board for freeride foiling at home is a Stingray 140.

Wind / wing combo boards are always a compromise.

If you weigh less than 80kgs then try persisting with the 114. You will get better at the technique. Do you uphaul with both feet behind the mast base? It's also easier if you have the mast base in the rear position.

If you are heavier than 80kgs, then you might need a 125 / 130 litre board. There are lots of good ones out there to choose from and many like the Alien, JP, Fanatic are around 200mm longer than the Wizard and hence a bit easier to uphaul.

I have the older Stingray 125 and the newer 115. I've ridden both with the Flow 900 foil and the straps out.

The old Stingray 140 works great for windfoiling with freeride foils and the SB GT-R setup (800/255/95+), but it not great for winging. Looks like all the changes they made in the current models makes it better suited for winging, though (e.g. shorter shape, longer mast tracks, tail cutouts). The 130 might be a good size for you, and should be easy enough to shlog with a sail when the wind drops.

Okay I experimented today.

Started out on 6.6 with my 120 xcite just checking out the wind. Was powered in gusts and planing but in the lulls it was tough. Sail was too twitchy so I dropped downhaul by 1cm, the new goya extension is about 2cm longer than others...

Rigged 145 Blast with full outboard and back straps, mast base about 1-2cm further forward than when I am on a fin. 105+/725/0 shim. Foil felt good, straps not in a bad spot but I didn't go for the rear. Overpowered as hell and not able to stay on the beans due to fear of the random foil mast high swells.

Switched to 5.8. Same everything else. A little more work if in lulls but still flying without pumping in gusts. Still crazy high foilmast swells and I wasn't comfortable enough wwto keep the foil fast enough to keep it that stable. Didn't crash but the fear was there.

Switched to 5.0 and the infinity 76. Much much much more comfortable in the swells and steering down waves with less sail and everything slowed down.

Thoughts: setup probably could be improved for race foil, maybe footstraps a little more forward but outboard felt right.

Footstraps felt awkward on the slingshot foil when trying to ride the waves and jibe.

Really think a foil appropriate board with footstraps more inboard for freeriding would be ideal. Need more time on race foils with the smaller sails to numb the fear some.

The small sails felt much better and not awkward on the 77cm board vs the 95cm iqfoil board.

Have you thought about a Starboard FoilX ?
i have a FoilX 125 and use it with all the Starboard foils.
From the supercruiser to freeride 1100 - millennium - 900 - 800 wings on the 95 plus fuselage and 95 carbon mast.
The 145 would probably be the size you would want to go for.

Select to expand quote

RuddeBos said..
Have you thought about a Starboard FoilX ?
i have a FoilX 125 and use it with all the Starboard foils.
From the supercruiser to freeride 1100 - millennium - 900 - 800 wings on the 95 plus fuselage and 95 carbon mast.
The 145 would probably be the size you would want to go for.

Yes, I am thankful for all the suggestions. Lot of things to check out.

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aeroegnr said..
Okay I experimented today.

Started out on 6.6 with my 120 xcite just checking out the wind. Was powered in gusts and planing but in the lulls it was tough. Sail was too twitchy so I dropped downhaul by 1cm, the new goya extension is about 2cm longer than others...

Rigged 145 Blast with full outboard and back straps, mast base about 1-2cm further forward than when I am on a fin. 105+/725/0 shim. Foil felt good, straps not in a bad spot but I didn't go for the rear. Overpowered as hell and not able to stay on the beans due to fear of the random foil mast high swells.

Switched to 5.8. Same everything else. A little more work if in lulls but still flying without pumping in gusts. Still crazy high foilmast swells and I wasn't comfortable enough wwto keep the foil fast enough to keep it that stable. Didn't crash but the fear was there.

Switched to 5.0 and the infinity 76. Much much much more comfortable in the swells and steering down waves with less sail and everything slowed down.

Thoughts: setup probably could be improved for race foil, maybe footstraps a little more forward but outboard felt right.

Footstraps felt awkward on the slingshot foil when trying to ride the waves and jibe.

Really think a foil appropriate board with footstraps more inboard for freeriding would be ideal. Need more time on race foils with the smaller sails to numb the fear some.

The small sails felt much better and not awkward on the 77cm board vs the 95cm iqfoil board.

Twitchy sail is typically more of a symptom of too flat (too much outhaul), imho.

The rule of thumb "1.5-2m2 smaller" - why the 6.6 felt big and why the 5.0 right (I know you are already aware of that). For fun, next time, instead of being on the 725 as you go down in sail size, maybe the 900 for s**ts and grins? It'll give you more of the i76 feeling.

Yeah, a smaller foil specific board does feel nice. I still omit the back straps so it's easier to put the back foot on the rail upwind and in the middle for playing on swell. Hope you find the one that's right for you. Having swell that big can be so much fun.

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..

aeroegnr said..
Okay I experimented today.

Started out on 6.6 with my 120 xcite just checking out the wind. Was powered in gusts and planing but in the lulls it was tough. Sail was too twitchy so I dropped downhaul by 1cm, the new goya extension is about 2cm longer than others...

Rigged 145 Blast with full outboard and back straps, mast base about 1-2cm further forward than when I am on a fin. 105+/725/0 shim. Foil felt good, straps not in a bad spot but I didn't go for the rear. Overpowered as hell and not able to stay on the beans due to fear of the random foil mast high swells.

Switched to 5.8. Same everything else. A little more work if in lulls but still flying without pumping in gusts. Still crazy high foilmast swells and I wasn't comfortable enough wwto keep the foil fast enough to keep it that stable. Didn't crash but the fear was there.

Switched to 5.0 and the infinity 76. Much much much more comfortable in the swells and steering down waves with less sail and everything slowed down.

Thoughts: setup probably could be improved for race foil, maybe footstraps a little more forward but outboard felt right.

Footstraps felt awkward on the slingshot foil when trying to ride the waves and jibe.

Really think a foil appropriate board with footstraps more inboard for freeriding would be ideal. Need more time on race foils with the smaller sails to numb the fear some.

The small sails felt much better and not awkward on the 77cm board vs the 95cm iqfoil board.

Twitchy sail is typically more of a symptom of too flat (too much outhaul), imho.

The rule of thumb "1.5-2m2 smaller" - why the 6.6 felt big and why the 5.0 right (I know you are already aware of that). For fun, next time, instead of being on the 725 as you go down in sail size, maybe the 900 for s**ts and grins? It'll give you more of the i76 feeling.

Yeah, a smaller foil specific board does feel nice. I still omit the back straps so it's easier to put the back foot on the rail upwind and in the middle for playing on swell. Hope you find the one that's right for you. Having swell that big can be so much fun.

The twitchiness went away after dropping the downhaul. I was wrong, it seems the goya extension is more like 3cm off of the others, if you go by the markings unless I'm reading it wrong. When I took out the downhaul I looked at where the battens sat and the leech and it was definitely too tight initially.

Yeah the 5.0 may have been too small for the 725, but felt good on the i76. I'll have to try again on that board when I'm at a flatter spot with a chop/swell breaker. The 900 feels different on the 105+ fuse, I'll have to give it a go though.

I thought about adjusting the Blast straps but I am trying to minimize that after stripping some in another board. I'm teaching someone and may move them inboard for her, but I'm waiting for her to be ready. It feels good on a fin where they're at. Would be nice to be able to quickly swap positions on a board like that without risking stripping the inserts.

I grabbed a few swells and it felt cool. Sometimes I wonder if I'm holding myself back by doing fin/foil and different boards all the time but sometimes it's just fun to do that

Select to expand quote

aeroegnr said..

Paducah said..

aeroegnr said..
Okay I experimented today.

Started out on 6.6 with my 120 xcite just checking out the wind. Was powered in gusts and planing but in the lulls it was tough. Sail was too twitchy so I dropped downhaul by 1cm, the new goya extension is about 2cm longer than others...

Rigged 145 Blast with full outboard and back straps, mast base about 1-2cm further forward than when I am on a fin. 105+/725/0 shim. Foil felt good, straps not in a bad spot but I didn't go for the rear. Overpowered as hell and not able to stay on the beans due to fear of the random foil mast high swells.

Switched to 5.8. Same everything else. A little more work if in lulls but still flying without pumping in gusts. Still crazy high foilmast swells and I wasn't comfortable enough wwto keep the foil fast enough to keep it that stable. Didn't crash but the fear was there.

Switched to 5.0 and the infinity 76. Much much much more comfortable in the swells and steering down waves with less sail and everything slowed down.

Thoughts: setup probably could be improved for race foil, maybe footstraps a little more forward but outboard felt right.

Footstraps felt awkward on the slingshot foil when trying to ride the waves and jibe.

Really think a foil appropriate board with footstraps more inboard for freeriding would be ideal. Need more time on race foils with the smaller sails to numb the fear some.

The small sails felt much better and not awkward on the 77cm board vs the 95cm iqfoil board.

Twitchy sail is typically more of a symptom of too flat (too much outhaul), imho.

The rule of thumb "1.5-2m2 smaller" - why the 6.6 felt big and why the 5.0 right (I know you are already aware of that). For fun, next time, instead of being on the 725 as you go down in sail size, maybe the 900 for s**ts and grins? It'll give you more of the i76 feeling.

Yeah, a smaller foil specific board does feel nice. I still omit the back straps so it's easier to put the back foot on the rail upwind and in the middle for playing on swell. Hope you find the one that's right for you. Having swell that big can be so much fun.

The twitchiness went away after dropping the downhaul. I was wrong, it seems the goya extension is more like 3cm off of the others, if you go by the markings unless I'm reading it wrong. When I took out the downhaul I looked at where the battens sat and the leech and it was definitely too tight initially.

Yeah the 5.0 may have been too small for the 725, but felt good on the i76. I'll have to try again on that board when I'm at a flatter spot with a chop/swell breaker. The 900 feels different on the 105+ fuse, I'll have to give it a go though.

I thought about adjusting the Blast straps but I am trying to minimize that after stripping some in another board. I'm teaching someone and may move them inboard for her, but I'm waiting for her to be ready. It feels good on a fin where they're at. Would be nice to be able to quickly swap positions on a board like that without risking stripping the inserts.

I grabbed a few swells and it felt cool. Sometimes I wonder if I'm holding myself back by doing fin/foil and different boards all the time but sometimes it's just fun to do that

I think its good to mix it up as long as you are basic consist in the kit for different styles of riding you do. Foiling is subtle and big jumps in foil kit probably do make it harder to master any individual style of foiling. small tweaks to kit are good until you feel like things are dialled. In someways it might be better for people to focus on one style of foiling for a bit until they are proficient and then add other styles? Picking the style that you want to focus on probably depends on what you think looks cool, where you ride and what sort of sails you normally ride (wave/freestyle versus slalom).

mixing foil and fin is probably less of an issue as the styles of riding do not overlap as much as race foil versus freeride foil, but when learning to foil it is probably best for newbies (you are beyond that stage) to mostly focus on foil so that they learn the foil stance. The good wind foilers tend to do 80% foil at least in the first year.

Select to expand quote

aeroegnr said..
I thought about adjusting the Blast straps but I am trying to minimize that after stripping some in another board.

It crossed my mind to suggest even dropping the back ones but it's such a PITA even if you don't strip them. imho, that's always been a glaring weakness in board design.

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..

aeroegnr said..
I thought about adjusting the Blast straps but I am trying to minimize that after stripping some in another board.

It crossed my mind to suggest even dropping the back ones but it's such a PITA even if you don't strip them. imho, that's always been a glaring weakness in board design.

Yeah I hate having to adjust them. It's better with a good quality PH#3 or torx but still annoying to do.

I know they make 1/4x20 stainless inserts for footstraps and I sure wish that had become the standard instead of whatever plastic crap.

Select to expand quote

RuddeBos said..
Have you thought about a Starboard FoilX ?
i have a FoilX 125 and use it with all the Starboard foils.
From the supercruiser to freeride 1100 - millennium - 900 - 800 wings on the 95 plus fuselage and 95 carbon mast.
The 145 would probably be the size you would want to go for.

So, this is what I ended up going for!

Swapped the 114 Wizard for the 145 FoilX in Starlite. I looked at the Alien, Predator, and Stingray.

I liked the idea of the Predator but I am wary a bit of going too lightweight in construction after having to repair my Dyno quite a bit in <1yr.

The FoilX 125 and 145 are so similar in size, most of the volume is in thickness, and have a carry handle underneath. A spot that I want to foil more at requires a 1/4 mile beach haul and that will make it so much easier. I've done it on the Blast with the foil attached and it was a PITA.

Actually got to take it out today with a 4.4 Freek. Felt really good. Didn't have a crash, and it was really gusty, enough to have to just about flag the sail in the gusts while on the foil. Steers a lot better that the Blast. Right now I just have inboard front straps, riding the infinity 76. The only thing I had used before was the foil. Everything else different.

The volume felt awkward in swells and chop in lulls when I wasn't flying, but surprisingly I didn't eat it while tacking. Felt a lot better than the Blast on foil. A lot more secure riding it for the first time out in a place with decent current. Forgiving to my goofy footwork. It's a short and relatively narrow board but the floatation was saving me a bit. Attempted a foil jibe and actually got decently far around but I was sketched out a bit by the choppy water and potentially getting swept under a bridge by the current during recovery. Overall, much more effective for what I need than a lighter volume board.

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aeroegnr said..
and have a carry handle underneath.

I love the handle underneath on my board that has it.. I probably give up a little getting off the water but that is so "handy" (pun semi-intended). It really does make the gear easier to carry.

Sounds like you have a fun board to play on.

My favourite foil combination on my FoilX is the freeride 1100 fw, 95+ and 330tw on the 95 mast.
A really stable, relatively quick manoeuvrable set up.

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aeroegnr said..

So, this is what I ended up going for!

Swapped the 114 Wizard for the 145 FoilX in Starlite. I looked at the Alien, Predator, and Stingray.

please let us know how it works out with a slalom foil for you.

in my testing, the board didn't particularly work well with fuselages longer than 95cm; the mast track was rather pulled back for freerace/race sails; and the outboard strap positions weren't super comfortable for slalom-style riding.

Finally got a flying jibe! Have gone out several times with the same setup, just changed the sail for conditions.

Was on the i76 (B position) with a 5.6 Freek. Really turbulent conditions at the top of the bay that seemed to have pressure on/off but I pumped up, got going and went for one of my only attempts of the day and just flew through, felt the pressure come off the sail, rotated, stayed switch stance, then was so shocked that I was still flying that I froze up and crashed

Still haven't run a faster setup but I'm stoked. Only took a month with this setup and going from step to strap jibe.

I got the Alien 115, and its plug and play between my Phantom slalom foil setup (730/550 front wings) and my previous freeride setup (Fanatic Flow 1000). No changes to footstrap positions etc required.

I don't run big sails tho, max 4.8m, which is fine from around 10-12kts and up.

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swoosh said..
I got the Alien 115, and its plug and play between my Phantom slalom foil setup (730/550 front wings) and my previous freeride setup (Fanatic Flow 1000). No changes to footstrap positions etc required.

I don't run big sails tho, max 4.8m, which is fine from around 10-12kts and up.

I know one guy who can ride the 725 with 105+ and a sail that size with that wind speed but I'm 25kg heavier than him. Alien 125.

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aeroegnr said..
Finally got a flying jibe! Have gone out several times with the same setup, just changed the sail for conditions.

Was on the i76 (B position) with a 5.6 Freek. Really turbulent conditions at the top of the bay that seemed to have pressure on/off but I pumped up, got going and went for one of my only attempts of the day and just flew through, felt the pressure come off the sail, rotated, stayed switch stance, then was so shocked that I was still flying that I froze up and crashed

Still haven't run a faster setup but I'm stoked. Only took a month with this setup and going from step to strap jibe.

Sweet!

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aeroegnr said..
Finally got a flying jibe! ...

Aren't you supposed to buy us all drinks? Does it work like that?

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Paducah said..

aeroegnr said..
Finally got a flying jibe! ...

Aren't you supposed to buy us all drinks? Does it work like that?

Uh oh.... may have to!

Also, i couldn't help making this comparison. Both are 145l boards. I tried to align them on the tuttle holes by eye. You can notice that the footstraps are almost the same distance from the tuttle. But, look at how much closer the foilx mast track is to the straps. I run it with the mast base at the center, and that's further back than is even possible on the Blast, and it feels extremely easy to ride. I got used to riding the Blast but I have yet to have a big catapult on the foilx. There's a lot of board shape differences for takeoff and touch downs but the mast track seemingly makes a big difference. Much less twitchy on the freeride foils.







I had also made this comparison in another thread and it looks like it was pretty close just by scaling the images but it's another thing seeing it in person.

Select to expand quote

aeroegnr said..
I went out on my 114 wizard yesterday. I like it for winging but in typical winds here it doesn't seem to be quite enough volume for me when using a sail. Winging I can shlogg it upwind, sailing it and pulling up the sail is a battle much more difficult than my 115 dyno due to the short nose and probably the foil weight.

I was thinking about my possibly swapping it with something a little more volume, like a Stingray/Alien or one of the other boards. Or just keeping it for winging and getting good. But I think I've already got too many boards as is.

Are there boards that can support freeride/slingshot type foils and 105+/95+ race fuses with smaller slalom wings and ~7.5 and below? Seems like a narrower board with the race foils will be good for when it's strong vs. the wide 95 board. And, I really want do more freeride foiling. I got the wizard thinking it would be floaty enough but the volume distribution is difficult for me to uphaul in chop, not bad to waterstart, but I need solid wind (which is quite rare) to get up in anything but flat water conditions here.

Am I asking too much for a dedicated foil board that can do both?

I also could try using the Blast 145 for freeride foiling again, but that also means swapping out the strap positions for it. It is good, but I also am not sure if it is really suitable for a slalom foil. I'm also wary of moving the straps too much after stripping out a couple of inserts on my big Link windsup. I think I'll also need a separate aluminum mast in that case due to the SB tuttle head being so deep, in order to use it on the Blast. Looks like it actually fits inside the Blast actually. So no mast needed. Maybe I just need to experiment with the slalom foil in the Blast.

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..
I keep my board inventory very simple (200lbs/90kg) to 2 boards!

Wizard 130 for all wind foiling, this covers all winds from 10 to 35 mph, yes its much wider than the W114 but it still turns amazingly well when the wind is up. When I launch in 2-3ft shore dump and the wind is light I wouldn't be able to use the W114 as you have to uphaul in very confused seas and there is no wind to water start.

Wingcraft 90 for all winging, I use this board for 12-30mph, like wind foiling I am not messing about trying to get my weight and balance in the right spot to get going, I am up on my feet and pumping the foil.

Easy selections, no fussing and wondering "what if" whilst on the water, I am covered for every wind and water state.

I think using the W114 is fine in the beginning for winging but it wont be long before you will want a dedicated wing board. With regards to using a slalom-esq foil they are designed for wide boards where you are hiking off the rail. The Wizard 130 and Phantasm foil is as fast as you want to hold on with the benefit of carving when there is swell to play in.

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..
I keep my board inventory very simple (200lbs/90kg) to 2 boards!

Wizard 130 for all wind foiling, this covers all winds from 10 to 35 mph, yes its much wider than the W114 but it still turns amazingly well when the wind is up. When I launch in 2-3ft shore dump and the wind is light I wouldn't be able to use the W114 as you have to uphaul in very confused seas and there is no wind to water start.

Wingcraft 90 for all winging, I use this board for 12-30mph, like wind foiling I am not messing about trying to get my weight and balance in the right spot to get going, I am up on my feet and pumping the foil.

Easy selections, no fussing and wondering "what if" whilst on the water, I am covered for every wind and water state.

I think using the W114 is fine in the beginning for winging but it wont be long before you will want a dedicated wing board. With regards to using a slalom-esq foil they are designed for wide boards where you are hiking off the rail. The Wizard 130 and Phantasm foil is as fast as you want to hold on with the benefit of carving when there is swell to play in.

CoreAS, does your two board set up allow you to use the same foil (Phantasm)? Or do you need to swap out the wings etc when you move from windfoiling to winging?

It is possible to windfoil with a one-board quiver. In the far-east gorge I use the Stingray 140 with Moses/SAB with 1 fuse, 1 stab, and 4 wings, and sails from 4.2 to 8.5. This covers winds from 12 kts to 25 kts. It works.

Two friends use one board, a i76 (or SAB 790), and sails from 2.8 to 6.3. It works for them.

Was curious about slalom vs slingshot 76 dims.

I aligned the stardboard fuses by roughly the center of the mast attachment. It looks like with the 105+/725 the front wing is quite a bit forward, stab a little bit further back than the 76 in B. I know the 76 is sailable in C, as I have done it, but it got a bit unwieldy so I'll have to try. And I've done both foil types on the Blast, with the difference being the mast base position, so it'll probably work with the foilx... not sure about feel though.

Also, 115+ and 900 puts it even further forward, with the stab even further back.

Looks like the 1300 Flyer 102 evo probably has a closer front center much like the slingshot. Would be interesting to try and see.

Hoping I can grab a seabreeze soon and test between 105+ and 76 anyway.