Been dabbling with a freerace setup 101cm fuse, HA front wing, 6 and 7 m cammed sails.

Starting to get what segler has been saying about frontfoot pressure being over-rated by some.

Initially, I added a liftier stab (s425) versus s399. Because I was looking for that high lift at low speed that works so well on swellstyle gear and it was only around 10-15 knots, but the past two sessions it was 15-20 knots and I was trying to push for speed (nothing crazy ~22 knots max).

I found it quite challenging to get the foil down, front leg was tired as. Last session I moved universal fwd about 4 inches which helped. Next session will go back to smaller stab too.

Here's the question/comment:

I was trying to lean down into harness to help hold foil down while reaching, cause I heard that's what pros do, but as soon as I did sit down, I would lose my frontfoot pressure and foil would start to lift and I would stand up straight again which is my swellstyle stance.

Not sure if this is related, but I recently adopted a new technique for keeping foil down when going for speed: biasing harness lines back about 1.0" of balance point and sheeting OUT with front hand (esp in gusts)

I started doing this mostly for control as I am recovering from shoulder surgery, and have found it to be v effective for avoiding breaching. In your current setup, sitting may be net less front foot weight.

My two cents, I'm not a pro but as soon as you pass the 15 knots of wind, your stab should be as neutral as possible (no shim or negative if your stab has a positive angle). You would need more glide and speed to take off, but the foil will be much more predictable. Stab of 400 is big for a freerace foil, it should be between 200 and 260.
Also, related to the frontfoot pressure, it makes sense when you are in an upright position for freeride/freemove with small sails .. but for freerace with cam sails, sitting down in your harness will put natural pressure on your third foot: the mast base. So, no need to push hard on your frontfoot. If you look at videos of the pros, their wishbones are high, they sit in their harness line like hell to push down the board in gusts and accelerate. If you don't do that and open the sail, you take off in the sky ;)

Sorry not 400 sqcm area that was the width

The area on the 399 is certainly lower but I think its also the thinner chord which may make it better. Hope to try again soon

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thedoor said..
...Initially, I added a liftier stab (s425) versus s399. Because I was looking for that high lift at low speed that works so well on swellstyle gear and it was only around 10-15 knots, but the past two sessions it was 15-20 knots and I was trying to push for speed (nothing crazy ~22 knots max)...

Your set up is trying to do two conflicting things at the same time. Freeride with swellstyle gear, most of us aren't going that fast and actually bearing off a lot pretty deep to stay on the swell/wave. Having a lot of front foot pressure makes flying through jibes easy without being loaded for bear with a ton of power.

Now, in 20 kts, if you are going for flat out reaching/offwind speed, your board speed is going to, as you've notice going from 14-18 kts to 20-22. You need less stab angle or push the mast base forward. That doesn't mean front foot pressure isn't important but that the wing will be generating noticeably more lift at those speeds.

As the wind and board speed come up, it's perfectly normal to retune your set up to maintain the same feeling - stab angle and mast base position can and do change. The IQ folks at the pointy end certainly do it; I've asked them.

All that being said, if you are weighting the harness hard and the board is coming up, something, imho, is amiss. All that weight in the harness is going forward of the front foot and into the mast base. If you are fully committing the weight down on the harness, it should overwhelm whatever weight was on the front foot simply from leverage. I know you are a good foiler so forgive me for asking the following: are you sure that when you are putting the pressure on the harness it's really down and not a bit out (ie in windsurf mode)? I'm assuming you've seen the pics on this page? www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Harness-line-position--forward-lines-versus-balanced-lines?page=3#lastpost

@pad Maybe I confused you not planning on trying to swell ride with race setup

Not sure about down or out, but I picked up this tip from Al from F4 and it seemed to work for reaching: pressure on back foot (was way back behind foil mast) and pressure on harness.
Better session today switched to the smaller stab and could definitely weight the harness better. It was much less lift so I moved the universal back 3 inches which helped but still lots of touch down crashes. I think I may add some shim to the 399.

Maybe it was psychosomatic but 399 felt slipperier. Got 22.9 knot 2 sec

For me adding some positive shim to the 399 made the difference between not flying and flying. Some people are using +2.0 deg. I like +1.5 deg.

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segler said..
For me adding some positive shim to the 399 made the difference between not flying and flying. Some people are using +2.0 deg. I like +1.5 deg.

I think I might try some shim next time too

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thedoor said..
@pad Maybe I confused you not planning on trying to swell ride with race setup

Not sure about down or out, but I picked up this tip from Al from F4 and it seemed to work for reaching: pressure on back foot (was way back behind foil mast) and pressure on harness.
Better session today switched to the smaller stab and could definitely weight the harness better. It was much less lift so I moved the universal back 3 inches which helped but still lots of touch down crashes. I think I may add some shim to the 399.

Maybe it was psychosomatic but 399 felt slipperier. Got 22.9 knot 2 sec

Thanks for the clarification. When you say "touch down" crashes, do you mean pretty hard changes in altitude or just that dragging the board in the water causes significant slow downs to the point of losing control? If it's the latter, you might want to check your mast rake.

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Paducah said..

thedoor said..
@pad Maybe I confused you not planning on trying to swell ride with race setup

Not sure about down or out, but I picked up this tip from Al from F4 and it seemed to work for reaching: pressure on back foot (was way back behind foil mast) and pressure on harness.
Better session today switched to the smaller stab and could definitely weight the harness better. It was much less lift so I moved the universal back 3 inches which helped but still lots of touch down crashes. I think I may add some shim to the 399.

Maybe it was psychosomatic but 399 felt slipperier. Got 22.9 knot 2 sec

Thanks for the clarification. When you say "touch down" crashes, do you mean pretty hard changes in altitude or just that dragging the board in the water causes significant slow downs to the point of losing control? If it's the latter, you might want to check your mast rake.

It was the later, will try the shimmed stab and if not better consider mast rake. Never messed with that before on windfoil.

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Paducah said..Thanks for the clarification. When you say "touch down" crashes, do you mean pretty hard changes in altitude or just that dragging the board in the water causes significant slow downs to the point of losing control? If it's the latter, you might want to check your mast rake.

What have you experimented with re. mast rake?
What are the issues?
I'd be stoked to have something else to fiddle with

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azymuth said..

Paducah said..Thanks for the clarification. When you say "touch down" crashes, do you mean pretty hard changes in altitude or just that dragging the board in the water causes significant slow downs to the point of losing control? If it's the latter, you might want to check your mast rake.

What have you experimented with re. mast rake?
What are the issues?
I'd be stoked to have something else to fiddle with

Honestly, haven't much in a long while. I just remember the discussions a couple years back about wanting between 2-3 degrees for slalom, reaching etc so that touchdowns would be more gentle. For course racing, iirc, the consensus was between 1.5-2 degrees would suffice. A time in the past when I again pretended to know what I was talking about and really didn't : www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Tail-kick-foil-rake?page=1

Honestly don't know what the current state of the art is.

fwiw - video from Phantom recommending 3 degrees (their settings page is no longer online)


iqfoil

it's complex... of course. what matters more than the rake of the mast is the angle of the fuselage (and therefore of the wings) compared to the board, so comparing 1-on-1 angle of mast rake between two foil set-ups doesn't mean much unless the angle of the fuselage to the mast between those two setups is also the same

however, compared to your own benchmark, adding mast rake will trim the nose of your board comparatively higher when in flight, facilitating at least two (somewhat related) things: easier bounce back when touching down (or foiling in chop), and less likely to stuff the nose of the board into the back of a wave when carving into the jibe -- both particularly important in slalom/choppy conditions, hence why most use around 3 degrees or more of rake (measuring on top of the fuselage) in slalom mode

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bel29 said..
it's complex... of course. what matters more than the rake of the mast is the angle of the fuselage (and therefore of the wings) compared to the board, so comparing 1-on-1 angle of mast rake between two foil set-ups doesn't mean much unless the angle of the fuselage to the mast between those two setups is also the same

Yes, absolutely. Sorry I wasn't clear on that. We say "mast rake" but what we are actually are measuring is wing angle of attack and the easiest way to adjust that on most kit is by changing the mast rake. Usually we measure the fuse at a flat spot vs the board bottom as masts aren't always perpendicular. For example, the IQFoil mast is at 87 degrees. There are also cases, iirc, where the wing isn't in line with the fuse by a degree or two which is another potential can of worms. Most important thing is if you feel that your landings (not foilouts but just descending a bit) are hard or the board flies too nose up or down, you can play with the mast rake a half or degree at a time and see if it helps.

Update: stab shim and 399 stab seem a good combo.

Getting a feel for controlling nose height with harness. No breaches and can't recall a non transition touch down.

Switching to the less lift stab did kinda limit my upwind ability though.

Hey thedoor, I agree. I have been going back and forth between a 799/399/+1.5 deg stab shim and a 950/450/-0.5 deg stab shim. All on the 900 fuse.

The 799 feels looser, but the 950 goes upwind much better. I expected the 799 to be faster, but it is not. 18 mph is pretty much the top comfortable speed for both unless I really push it. The 399 stab is tiny, but I think the plus shim angle slows it down. Both have the same really good glide.

For real speed I need to go back to my 720, but you really have to keep the pedal to the metal for that one. Makes sense, I guess.

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segler said..
Hey thedoor, I agree. I have been going back and forth between a 799/399/+1.5 deg stab shim and a 950/450/-0.5 deg stab shim. All on the 900 fuse.

The 799 feels looser, but the 950 goes upwind much better. I expected the 799 to be faster, but it is not. 18 mph is pretty much the top comfortable speed for both unless I really push it. The 399 stab is tiny, but I think the plus shim angle slows it down. Both have the same really good glide.

For real speed I need to go back to my 720, but you really have to keep the pedal to the metal for that one. Makes sense, I guess.

Never ride the 950 but heard great things about it. Just picked up a 720 which I never put much time on. Interested to see if it's faster than 799. I think I get about 18-20mph on 799 too. Pretty certain it can go faster

I tried again yesterday at Port Kelley on the Columbia. Wind was 15-17 on fairly flat water. Sail was a Flyer 7.0 4-batten with a stiff 460 rdm. I had to work really hard to get it to 18.7 mph max. This is same speed I get out of the 950. Gosh, my old 2016-era LP 940 gave me 22 mph easily.

I used to foil these same conditions with a 1999-vintage Sailworks XT 6.4. I'm beginning to wonder whether my speed is limited by the Flyer.

No, speed is not the ultimate objective for freeride foiling, I know, but I do like some speed for better control and glide.

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thedoor said..

segler said..
Hey thedoor, I agree. I have been going back and forth between a 799/399/+1.5 deg stab shim and a 950/450/-0.5 deg stab shim. All on the 900 fuse.

The 799 feels looser, but the 950 goes upwind much better. I expected the 799 to be faster, but it is not. 18 mph is pretty much the top comfortable speed for both unless I really push it. The 399 stab is tiny, but I think the plus shim angle slows it down. Both have the same really good glide.

For real speed I need to go back to my 720, but you really have to keep the pedal to the metal for that one. Makes sense, I guess.

Never ride the 950 but heard great things about it. Just picked up a 720 which I never put much time on. Interested to see if it's faster than 799. I think I get about 18-20mph on 799 too. Pretty certain it can go faster

I'm curious what you guy's use for speed data. I'm just using my phone and smart watch, so don't know about accuracy. My max is 21.8 knots (25 mph) on the 730 PFI. Similar so far with the G800 which I thought would be faster given less surface area. Maybe it is and I haven't pushed it hard enough yet. I'm not necessarily shooting for speed, but intrigued by the different wings. I saw a post from Greg Glazier stating 28 knots on the PFI 730. I know he's incredibly good, but damn !!. I feel I'm on the ragged edge at 21 knots. I saw the last PWA Pozo race with a max of 36 knots in swell. Yikes !!.

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segler said..
I tried again yesterday at Port Kelley on the Columbia. Wind was 15-17 on fairly flat water. Sail was a Flyer 7.0 4-batten with a stiff 460 rdm. I had to work really hard to get it to 18.7 mph max. This is same speed I get out of the 950. Gosh, my old 2016-era LP 940 gave me 22 mph easily.

I used to foil these same conditions with a 1999-vintage Sailworks XT 6.4. I'm beginning to wonder whether my speed is limited by the Flyer.

No, speed is not the ultimate objective for freeride foiling, I know, but I do like some speed for better control and glide.

You should be a lot faster than that. More race oriented sails will help by reducing drag. Four battens is fine for freeriding if you aren't loading the sail up, imho, but I can see if you are really pushing things, it will complicate the task at hand. The 950 is a fairly slippery wing from observing friends. There may not be a significant difference in drag between the two if you are hitting the speed wall below 20. Probably worth dragging out the 6.4 to see if it's more a sail or foil trim issue.

Perfectly fine for speed not to be an issue. But this suggests that there's a source of drag somewhere and if that can be sorted, it'll make cruising through lulls easier if nothing else.

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segler said..
I tried again yesterday at Port Kelley on the Columbia. Wind was 15-17 on fairly flat water. Sail was a Flyer 7.0 4-batten with a stiff 460 rdm. I had to work really hard to get it to 18.7 mph max. This is same speed I get out of the 950. Gosh, my old 2016-era LP 940 gave me 22 mph easily.

I used to foil these same conditions with a 1999-vintage Sailworks XT 6.4. I'm beginning to wonder whether my speed is limited by the Flyer.

No, speed is not the ultimate objective for freeride foiling, I know, but I do like some speed for better control and glide.

Sounds like a tuning issue perhaps. I have the same four batten Flyer and also usually rig on a 460 and have hit 24.5 on it, while running a legit three minute mile (not nautical mile). For anything except super light wind I find that it loves downhaul and I'll pull until the looseness is 6-8" past the tuning indicator. I've also replaced the batten above the boom with a very burly carbon tube out of a Point7 race sail. That 6.4 XT probably does have a higher top speed, though - on a narrow slalom board and a 32cm fin you could easily get 35 out it I bet

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WsurfAustin said..

thedoor said..

segler said..
Hey thedoor, I agree. I have been going back and forth between a 799/399/+1.5 deg stab shim and a 950/450/-0.5 deg stab shim. All on the 900 fuse.

The 799 feels looser, but the 950 goes upwind much better. I expected the 799 to be faster, but it is not. 18 mph is pretty much the top comfortable speed for both unless I really push it. The 399 stab is tiny, but I think the plus shim angle slows it down. Both have the same really good glide.

For real speed I need to go back to my 720, but you really have to keep the pedal to the metal for that one. Makes sense, I guess.

Never ride the 950 but heard great things about it. Just picked up a 720 which I never put much time on. Interested to see if it's faster than 799. I think I get about 18-20mph on 799 too. Pretty certain it can go faster

I'm curious what you guy's use for speed data. I'm just using my phone and smart watch, so don't know about accuracy. My max is 21.8 knots (25 mph) on the 730 PFI. Similar so far with the G800 which I thought would be faster given less surface area. Maybe it is and I haven't pushed it hard enough yet. I'm not necessarily shooting for speed, but intrigued by the different wings. I saw a post from Greg Glazier stating 28 knots on the PFI 730. I know he's incredibly good, but damn !!. I feel I'm on the ragged edge at 21 knots. I saw the last PWA Pozo race with a max of 36 knots in swell. Yikes !!.

I use a coros but I suspect there is minimal difference between phone, garmin etc. Of course you can easily get spikes from weird movements in catapults and wipeouts, so I ignore those spikes and usually quote the 2 sec max or just eyeball the line of best fit on the graph. gps speedsurfing has stronger controls.

Greg glazier is insanely fast on freeride gear on sails I am sure I could not water start.. And gwarn is at least 10% faster than me and he is rocking the 3 year old moses 790 and uses small freestyle sails. I think what they have mastered is ability to control the foil at speed while reaching, where as when things get dicey I shoot upwind or downwind to kill speed. Aside from skill and bigger balls I think their secret may be longer universal to foil distances (not sure about qwarn's but gregs is a lot bigger than mine :)) and their outboard strap position allows them to power up the sail better than my in board position

Another rake video. This guy turned out to be pretty good.

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thedoor said..Greg glazier is insanely fast on freeride gear on sails I am sure I could not water start.. And gwarn is at least 10% faster than me and he is rocking the 3 year old moses 790 and uses small freestyle sails. I think what they have mastered is ability to control the foil at speed while reaching, where as when things get dicey I shoot upwind or downwind to kill speed. Aside from skill and bigger balls I think their secret may be longer universal to foil distances (not sure about qwarn's but gregs is a lot bigger than mine :)) and their outboard strap position allows them to power up the sail better than my in board position

I got 24 knots in chop last week on the Simmer 550cm2 with a 4m2 wave sail.
It's sketchy at that speed although with the right conditions I think I can push it too 25/26

I think the limiting factor (for me) is the wave sail and the shortish fuse - windfoil racers look relaxed going much faster.
I had a quick go on a F4 race setup 3 or so years ago and got 26 pretty easily.

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azymuth said..

thedoor said..Greg glazier is insanely fast on freeride gear on sails I am sure I could not water start.. And gwarn is at least 10% faster than me and he is rocking the 3 year old moses 790 and uses small freestyle sails. I think what they have mastered is ability to control the foil at speed while reaching, where as when things get dicey I shoot upwind or downwind to kill speed. Aside from skill and bigger balls I think their secret may be longer universal to foil distances (not sure about qwarn's but gregs is a lot bigger than mine :)) and their outboard strap position allows them to power up the sail better than my in board position

I got 24 knots in chop last week on the Simmer 550cm2 with a 4m2 wave sail.
It's sketchy at that speed although with the right conditions I think I can push it too 25/26

I think the limiting factor (for me) is the wave sail and the shortish fuse - windfoil racers look relaxed going much faster.
I had a quick go on a F4 race setup 3 or so years ago and got 26 pretty easily.

Thats pretty quick. you still rocking outboard front strap? What is you universal to foil mast distance?

To answer the one question, I use a Garmin 245 Music and Garmin 5X, which K888 says likely collect speed data internally using doppler, but don't report HDOP errors. Also, I definitely do NOT use Strava for reporting or archiving because Strava uses relatively noisy positional data to calculate speeds. Even when the watch reports (doppler) speeds directly in its FIT files, Strava ignores those. This makes Strava speeds too high. So, with the Garmins I use Connect for reporting and archiving. The watch keeps a max speed internally, and this max speed is the same as the max speed reported in Connect.

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thedoor said..
you can easily get spikes from weird movements in catapults and wipeouts, so I ignore those spikes and usually quote the 2 sec max or just eyeball the line of best fit on the graph.

2 second speeds are still very much prone to top speeds from crashes and other artifacts. In sessions with lots of crashes, I almost always have to discard the top 2 second run, and often the3 or 4 "fastest" speeds, because they are immediately followed by crashes. It's a moot point if those runs are real speed while I was still on the board, speed while I was flying into the water, or artifacts - in any case, it's not speed where I had any control.

A much more meaningful number is the average of the best five 10-second runs (usually called 5x10). It basically reflects what kind of speed you can reach for a reasonable amount of time repeatedly, and large reduces or eliminates distortions from crashes and artifacts. That's why 5x10 is the primary result used for ranking on GPS speedsurfing.com. Typical real 2-second "top speeds" are roughly 2 knots faster than the 5x10 numbers; bigger difference can happen, but that's usually an indication of a (single) lucky gust, or similar. You can get 5x10 numbers by uploading to GPS speedsurfing.com or ka72.com, or by using software like GPS Speedreader or GPSResults.