Recently I had my JP Freestyle 101 reboxed so that I could sail a deep tuttle foil on it. After a few hours on the board, I can tell that I really like the shape and sailing style. The soft rails and fast rocker make it a good explosive board with still room to come down forgivingly. The 'surfer-like' feeling with a foil on a wide board is something you don't have and is certainly the case here.
So, very positive, but what I notice is that I miss some volume (behind the mast foot) to float comfortably. That's why I'm thinking of putting on my overall and shaping another board. More specifically a 110 litre 180x65 foilstyle board.

That aside, I'm mainly curious about your experience with foilstyle boards and their shapes. Is a bit more volume in general and more in the tail specifically a solution to not having to walk the tightrope in less than 8/10 knots (I weigh 83 by the way)?
Another thing that strikes me is that there are two types of trends in foilstyle: (1) wide tail with double footstrap like the SB FoilX/ F-one rocket wind/ Horue boards and (2) narrow tail with single footstrap like the MB Pegasus/ Fanatic Foilstyler/ Puls Airgame (coming soon). Do you know the philosophy behind choices?
The V to flat rocker of the JP seems to work great.
I'm also curious about the choice for straight rails from SB vs. the round ones from most boards vs. the ones that run a lot further under the board now. 180 long and 60-65 wide seems to be the gold standard, right in your opinion?

I have the impression that a lot of attention is being paid to the racing spectrum of the foil world and that freeride is somewhat of a 'light' version of that, but freestyle (+ wave) is still a bit behind, so curious what things will come up if we all give it some thought.

Board shape mostly plays a roll in getting going and handling touchdowns. When in the air its mostly about mastrack to foil distance and strap placement, and the foil you are on.

I consider boards like the foil x more of a freeride board, but i imagine a good rider can do freestyle with them.

The best foilstylers (Balz, Jak M, Max R) seem to be using the egg shape (eg slingshot freestyle)and of course Balz uses his straight railed MB pegasus, which has chopped corners on the rear, so skipping the wide tail is probably an important distinction between freeride and foilstyle board. I don't do any aerial foil moves but i imagine inboard straps in front and a center back strap are also key

As foiling evolves, it will get more specialized, similar to windsurfing.
Course race, slalom race, fast freeride, rec freeride, freestyle, and offshoots for different kinds of wavering.
Then you get foils.

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LeeD said..
As foiling evolves, it will get more specialized, similar to windsurfing.
Course race, slalom race, fast freeride, rec freeride, freestyle, and offshoots for different kinds of wavering.
Then you get foils.

Just so we can fill up our garages even more gear

Of course, that is the end game.
The man with the most gear WINS.
I've had over 150 surfboards in 20 years of surfing.
9 motocross bikes in 5 years of racing.
75+ windsurf boards in 38 years of windsurfing.
Too bad I'm just a loser.

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LeeD said..
Of course, that is the end game.
The man with the most gear WINS.
I've had over 150 surfboards in 20 years of surfing.
9 motocross bikes in 5 years of racing.
75+ windsurf boards in 38 years of windsurfing.
Too bad I'm just a loser.

No loser pulls in a woman like that at your age

It IS interesting that we have minimalists....one sail, one board, and Gearheads, in every sport.
I'm the latter, always conflicting with g/f's, who seem always to be minimalist [gear], and always telling me to throw old stuff out.
I use the '96 sails, '99 boards, and like them a lot.
Old fart appreciating old gear.
Plenty of '17 and newer gear in the van, I just choose not to use it.

It's a shame that windsurf companies have focused on race/freerace kit, rather than foilstyle kit.

For freestyle and wave you need the same footstrap setup as you would in normal windsurfing - inboard footstraps and a centre backstrap. You also want it to be under 2m long, with lots of volume at the back.

I have a Slingshot FS 115, 188cm long, 71cm wide. As far as I'm concerned it's perfect for both freestyle and wave. In fact I think they should rebrand foilstyle as a freestyle-wave, so as to not put people off.

They should also make a 10l bigger size for 90kg sailors.

I'm curious as to what foils people are freestyling with. Small, fast and efficient? Big and carvy?

Thanks for all the input! I hope stuff won't get as specific as it is with windsurfing. It is hard enough to get into foiling like this and I find it tough to keep it minimal already, but a light wind foilstyler might become my most used board.

I think the SS wizard and freestyle are capable freefoil-wave boards with the inboard straps.
WhiteofHeart shared some of his great knowledge on another forum:
The main reason for the square tail of the F-one is actually the market. Most people who want a small board want a playful freerider. The square tail gets better upwind, the avarage foiler likes that.
I've had a chat with Balz about the MB design and he says the round tail makes for softer landings.
I don't know which would get going earlier. The square has more volume in the back, the round less surface to stick. I enjoy the float in underpowered conditions of a square [he surfs a f-one 105], it is easier than the avarage 115 slalomer and way easier than a 100 freestyler.

The foil you use depends. The big wings make for excellent carve moves and are desirable when using super short (shorter than 180cm) shapes to get you going. If you are skilled and can make the most out of every pump you can go for a balz foil or starboard gtr+ to have more speed and airtime. Some even use the gtr with the old 75 fuse for extra pop.
I read somewhere that Balz' brother, Jakob, prefers the bigger slingshot wings because they are smoother, give you a more 'safe' feel and thus make it possible to focus on the moves rather than control. He also agrees that a lot of focus goes to foil racing and not so much freeride/style/wave and SS is one of the few brands to actually focus on developping in this area.
Maybe the ideal freefoil is somewhat in the middle? The new Gunsails foil look super promising!

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Grantmac said..
I'm curious as to what foils people are freestyling with. Small, fast and efficient? Big and carvy?

For freewave / old-school carving freestyle the bigger wings seem to be winner, for jumping you want to go smaller (I dont jump wings over 900cm2 and 80 span) as landing on big wings will bend your mast / fuselage or break your wings.

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WhiteofHeart said..

Grantmac said..
I'm curious as to what foils people are freestyling with. Small, fast and efficient? Big and carvy?

For freewave / old-school carving freestyle the bigger wings seem to be winner, for jumping you want to go smaller (I dont jump wings over 900cm2 and 80 span) as landing on big wings will bend your mast / fuselage or break your wings.

Do you need a single strap to jump?

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Grantmac said..
I'm curious as to what foils people are freestyling with. Small, fast and efficient? Big and carvy?

Moses 1100 or 790. My old i84/i76 worked as well. The biggest issue is board swing weight. Wizard 105 turns like a jetski, Using the same foils on a larger board, feels like a freighter.

I have an i76 and i65.

i76 is good for carving moves, lighter winds, cross-on and small wave riding.

i65 good for windier days, jumping and cross-off/bigger waves.

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Faff said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Grantmac said..
I'm curious as to what foils people are freestyling with. Small, fast and efficient? Big and carvy?

For freewave / old-school carving freestyle the bigger wings seem to be winner, for jumping you want to go smaller (I dont jump wings over 900cm2 and 80 span) as landing on big wings will bend your mast / fuselage or break your wings.

Do you need a single strap to jump?

You can jump a double strap, but the chances of breaking your kit increases exponentially as you are farther out from the centerline. Keeping your weight above the centerline (both with single or double strap) when you pop really reduces the odds of breaking your kit, jumping while you're leaning out risks breakage. You can get your weight closer to the centerline on takeoff with a center backstrap. I kept bending masts & breaking fuselages & frontwings (really a lot) until I switched to single backstrap, still bent a few masts, but never broke any wings after that. I'm a relatively heavy weight though, I think a sub 75kg sailor is ok with the double backstrap, once you get in the 85+ region I really wouldnt try it.

Landing is a different story, landing flat on a big wing can easily break it (or the fuselage) regardless of strap placement, and its the number 1 cause for bending aluminum fuselages for me.

I'm jumping quite high though, I did some mast high (the board, being upside down my head was closer to the water) backloops on flat water. With those kind of airs the forces are quite large. If you do 1m max above the water you'll be ok either way.

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allesad said..

Grantmac said..
I'm curious as to what foils people are freestyling with. Small, fast and efficient? Big and carvy?

Moses 1100 or 790. My old i84/i76 worked as well. The biggest issue is board swing weight. Wizard 105 turns like a jetski, Using the same foils on a larger board, feels like a freighter.

Those are still big wings though. I'm talking about under 1100cm2 and fairly high aspect.
I have a Supercruiser 1700 which is super easy to ride swell etc, but I wonder if some more speed would make for better carving moves etc.

Narrower foils that allow heel and toe from centered rear strap.
Sized for weight, wind, wave.

I think for serious foilstylers, they may just end up with slightly shorter freestyle boards, with a foil compatible box. Kind of like the Fanatic Foilstyler, or a lot of the current FS boards from the big brands come foil ready. Just because it's a familiar shape for the high level freestylers.

For more average punters, who probably more want a "FSW or Supercross" style board, for carving tricks, and some less technical jumps (nothing switch stance etc), which I'd count myself part of, I'd like my next board to be a cross between the Slingshot Wizard 90 & 114, and the Severne Alien 105. Or maybe just the MB Pegusus. I'm thinking similar to NicoDC:
- 105L or so board, 150-180 long x 60-65 wide. I'm 80kg, I'd like the volume for easy slogging, and the short length for easy storage.
- DT + US Box options. For my I'm leaning towards racier foils as in my opinion they are superior for all aspects of foiling I'm interested in, including light wind. Once you develop the pumping ability, I think something relatively high aspect around 900cm2 front wing is perfect foil size for someone my weight from 10-25kts as a single wing solution.
- The bottom shape of the Alien, it's super forgiving, and I don't think its necessary to go super silly with the cutouts like the slingshot. I like the rocker and the big bevels. I actually question realistically if the rear cutouts are necessary at all.
- More deck pad and single rear strap option like the Wizards.

I think I prefer the wide square tail of these boards (for the reasons mentioned above for easy of cranking upwind), tho the MB Pegasus carries all of its width to the front of the rear footstrap, so may be the best option of the lot, as it basically ticks all the boxes except for carrying the tail width all the way to the back. But watching how Balz sails it, he seems to sail rear foot out of the straps fairly often. I generally find when I really want to get the foil loose and crank upwind, having my back foot right on the rail is key.

Select to expand quote

swoosh said..
I think for serious foilstylers, they may just end up with slightly shorter freestyle boards, with a foil compatible box. Kind of like the Fanatic Foilstyler, or a lot of the current FS boards from the big brands come foil ready. Just because it's a familiar shape for the high level freestylers.

For more average punters, who probably more want a "FSW or Supercross" style board, for carving tricks, and some less technical jumps (nothing switch stance etc), which I'd count myself part of, I'd like my next board to be a cross between the Slingshot Wizard 90 & 114, and the Severne Alien 105. Or maybe just the MB Pegusus. I'm thinking similar to NicoDC:
- 105L or so board, 150-180 long x 60-65 wide. I'm 80kg, I'd like the volume for easy slogging, and the short length for easy storage.
- DT + US Box options. For my I'm leaning towards racier foils as in my opinion they are superior for all aspects of foiling I'm interested in, including light wind. Once you develop the pumping ability, I think something relatively high aspect around 900cm2 front wing is perfect foil size for someone my weight from 10-25kts as a single wing solution.
- The bottom shape of the Alien, it's super forgiving, and I don't think its necessary to go super silly with the cutouts like the slingshot. I like the rocker and the big bevels. I actually question realistically if the rear cutouts are necessary at all.
- More deck pad and single rear strap option like the Wizards.

I think I prefer the wide square tail of these boards (for the reasons mentioned above for easy of cranking upwind), tho the MB Pegasus carries all of its width to the front of the rear footstrap, so may be the best option of the lot, as it basically ticks all the boxes except for carrying the tail width all the way to the back. But watching how Balz sails it, he seems to sail rear foot out of the straps fairly often. I generally find when I really want to get the foil loose and crank upwind, having my back foot right on the rail is key.

Im 100% with you!

I know Balz has his board setup so sailing in the backstrap is practically impossible for a longer duration of time for the average foiler due to too much lift, I have mine set the same way! Having so much power under the backfoot means higher pops ;). I think if he sails with his foot in front of the strap on the rail thats where most have their back footstrap placed in relation to the foils power. It is on my kit anyway.

Haven't really thought of it that way, but if you solely want to use the back footstrap for jumping you could set up your board this way, cut off the tail sides next to the back strap and have best of both worlds (square tail for upwind, round tail for landing jumps).

Really interesting point about the rear strap and overall board trim. I'm going to have to try that, currently I'm feeling like I lose a bit of speed on takeoff in jumps, in particular in flat water with little to no ramp, as I'm having to aggressively changing the foil attitude to jump.

Seems like there are 2 slightly differing ways I can set up my board:
Carving/Freeride focus - current setup, which seems to be easier to control when its gusty or very windy:
- Mastbase close to footstraps, to reduce influence of gusts etc on board attitude.
- Footstrap positions neutral trim, slightly backfoot bias at low speeds which translates to neutral when at speed.
- Foil rear stabiliser trim neutral.

Jumping focus - utilising more mast base pressure and front foot pressure to keep trim neutral when cruising:
- Mastbase further from footstraps and utilising some more mast foot pressure to help maintain board trim. Possibly could run higher boom to do a similar thing.
- Footstrap positions neutral with rear foot in front of back strap, but front foot biased with both feet in straps.
- Foil stabiliser trim positive for more lift.

I'm asking me why not to reduce the lenght of the fuselage for a better pop? Windfoil fuselage used to be quite longer and therefore stabler as wing/surf/kitefuselages. But is this really necessary? I imagine a short fuselage should be easyier to put in to jumpangle and increase the pop.

Select to expand quote

r3st0ck said..
I'm asking me why not to reduce the lenght of the fuselage for a better pop? Windfoil fuselage used to be quite longer and therefore stabler as wing/surf/kitefuselages. But is this really necessary? I imagine a short fuselage should be easyier to put in to jumpangle and increase the pop.

I have been wondering that too but more from a foil pumping for take off and propulsion perspective. Given how pumping the (big) foil more than the sail has been key to my light air take off would a shorter fuse combined with a small light sail close to the foil help dolphin pumping in general? Also, once you eliminate "windsurf fuse" from your requirements you have a LOT more gear to choose from.

Many folks will have a chuckle for me saying this but I think the Shred Sled is a foilstyle board. Because of the boards volume I can practice the moves in light air on the same board I use in breeze and it's wicked maneuverable set up once in the air. I have been too scared to try a foiling hellitack on my boards with foot straps, but have been going for it on the sled. There is no one way or wrong way to bring style to your foiling.

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swoosh said..
Really interesting point about the rear strap and overall board trim. I'm going to have to try that, currently I'm feeling like I lose a bit of speed on takeoff in jumps, in particular in flat water with little to no ramp, as I'm having to aggressively changing the foil attitude to jump.

Seems like there are 2 slightly differing ways I can set up my board:
Carving/Freeride focus - current setup, which seems to be easier to control when its gusty or very windy:
- Mastbase close to footstraps, to reduce influence of gusts etc on board attitude.
- Footstrap positions neutral trim, slightly backfoot bias at low speeds which translates to neutral when at speed.
- Foil rear stabiliser trim neutral.

Jumping focus - utilising more mast base pressure and front foot pressure to keep trim neutral when cruising:
- Mastbase further from footstraps and utilising some more mast foot pressure to help maintain board trim. Possibly could run higher boom to do a similar thing.
- Footstrap positions neutral with rear foot in front of back strap, but front foot biased with both feet in straps.
- Foil stabiliser trim positive for more lift.

For pop you'd want your mastfoot back! Average freeride/freemove position is around 100-105cm from the front tuttle bolt to the mastfoot, Balz (and I on my custom board) runs it at around 80cm!

Regarding the short fuses debate: The first F-One models were too backfoot powered. I've had a few prototype fuses which were extended to the front, but kept the same at the rear. They felt really unbalanced and felt like it lost grip somehow when pushing really hard (not as good for pumping as the one which was extended at the back aswell).

I think windfoil fuses have evolved to this length because the front wing has to be in a certain place relative to the mast and the mast to the backfoot / back of the board and the stab has to be in a certain place relative to that too. US-tracks are helpful for finetuning the foil power, but running a kitefuselage with a windfoil wing all the way in the front of the track will make the set feel realy off balance and seesawy so is also not the way to go. I like 90-100 fuses best for freestyle (jumping, measured from leading edge front wing to trailing edge stab)

I experimented with shore fuselage about 2 years ago and it was impossible to gybe

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thedoor said..
I experimented with shore fuselage about 2 years ago and it was impossible to gybe

Maybe you've gotten better since.

Select to expand quote

swoosh said..
I think for serious foilstylers, they may just end up with slightly shorter freestyle boards, with a foil compatible box. Kind of like the Fanatic Foilstyler, or a lot of the current FS boards from the big brands come foil ready. Just because it's a familiar shape for the high level freestylers.

For more average punters, who probably more want a "FSW or Supercross" style board, for carving tricks, and some less technical jumps (nothing switch stance etc), which I'd count myself part of, I'd like my next board to be a cross between the Slingshot Wizard 90 & 114, and the Severne Alien 105. Or maybe just the MB Pegusus. I'm thinking similar to NicoDC:
- 105L or so board, 150-180 long x 60-65 wide. I'm 80kg, I'd like the volume for easy slogging, and the short length for easy storage.
- DT + US Box options. For my I'm leaning towards racier foils as in my opinion they are superior for all aspects of foiling I'm interested in, including light wind. Once you develop the pumping ability, I think something relatively high aspect around 900cm2 front wing is perfect foil size for someone my weight from 10-25kts as a single wing solution.
- The bottom shape of the Alien, it's super forgiving, and I don't think its necessary to go super silly with the cutouts like the slingshot. I like the rocker and the big bevels. I actually question realistically if the rear cutouts are necessary at all.
- More deck pad and single rear strap option like the Wizards.

I think I prefer the wide square tail of these boards (for the reasons mentioned above for easy of cranking upwind), tho the MB Pegasus carries all of its width to the front of the rear footstrap, so may be the best option of the lot, as it basically ticks all the boxes except for carrying the tail width all the way to the back. But watching how Balz sails it, he seems to sail rear foot out of the straps fairly often. I generally find when I really want to get the foil loose and crank upwind, having my back foot right on the rail is key.

Maybe you should talk to Severne again. I have seen a new foil board but don't know when being released

Maybe be similar to below ????

Select to expand quote

DarrylG said..

swoosh said..
I think for serious foilstylers, they may just end up with slightly shorter freestyle boards, with a foil compatible box. Kind of like the Fanatic Foilstyler, or a lot of the current FS boards from the big brands come foil ready. Just because it's a familiar shape for the high level freestylers.

For more average punters, who probably more want a "FSW or Supercross" style board, for carving tricks, and some less technical jumps (nothing switch stance etc), which I'd count myself part of, I'd like my next board to be a cross between the Slingshot Wizard 90 & 114, and the Severne Alien 105. Or maybe just the MB Pegusus. I'm thinking similar to NicoDC:
- 105L or so board, 150-180 long x 60-65 wide. I'm 80kg, I'd like the volume for easy slogging, and the short length for easy storage.
- DT + US Box options. For my I'm leaning towards racier foils as in my opinion they are superior for all aspects of foiling I'm interested in, including light wind. Once you develop the pumping ability, I think something relatively high aspect around 900cm2 front wing is perfect foil size for someone my weight from 10-25kts as a single wing solution.
- The bottom shape of the Alien, it's super forgiving, and I don't think its necessary to go super silly with the cutouts like the slingshot. I like the rocker and the big bevels. I actually question realistically if the rear cutouts are necessary at all.
- More deck pad and single rear strap option like the Wizards.

I think I prefer the wide square tail of these boards (for the reasons mentioned above for easy of cranking upwind), tho the MB Pegasus carries all of its width to the front of the rear footstrap, so may be the best option of the lot, as it basically ticks all the boxes except for carrying the tail width all the way to the back. But watching how Balz sails it, he seems to sail rear foot out of the straps fairly often. I generally find when I really want to get the foil loose and crank upwind, having my back foot right on the rail is key.

Maybe you should talk to Severne again. I have seen a new foil board but don't know when being released

Maybe be similar to below ????

How is that "wide frontstraps & single backstrap" setting working for you? Isn't it kind of unnatural to keep yout balance that way? Do you have to bend your front leg once powered up or can you remain upright?

Select to expand quote

NicoDC said..

DarrylG said..

swoosh said..
I think for serious foilstylers, they may just end up with slightly shorter freestyle boards, with a foil compatible box. Kind of like the Fanatic Foilstyler, or a lot of the current FS boards from the big brands come foil ready. Just because it's a familiar shape for the high level freestylers.

For more average punters, who probably more want a "FSW or Supercross" style board, for carving tricks, and some less technical jumps (nothing switch stance etc), which I'd count myself part of, I'd like my next board to be a cross between the Slingshot Wizard 90 & 114, and the Severne Alien 105. Or maybe just the MB Pegusus. I'm thinking similar to NicoDC:
- 105L or so board, 150-180 long x 60-65 wide. I'm 80kg, I'd like the volume for easy slogging, and the short length for easy storage.
- DT + US Box options. For my I'm leaning towards racier foils as in my opinion they are superior for all aspects of foiling I'm interested in, including light wind. Once you develop the pumping ability, I think something relatively high aspect around 900cm2 front wing is perfect foil size for someone my weight from 10-25kts as a single wing solution.
- The bottom shape of the Alien, it's super forgiving, and I don't think its necessary to go super silly with the cutouts like the slingshot. I like the rocker and the big bevels. I actually question realistically if the rear cutouts are necessary at all.
- More deck pad and single rear strap option like the Wizards.

I think I prefer the wide square tail of these boards (for the reasons mentioned above for easy of cranking upwind), tho the MB Pegasus carries all of its width to the front of the rear footstrap, so may be the best option of the lot, as it basically ticks all the boxes except for carrying the tail width all the way to the back. But watching how Balz sails it, he seems to sail rear foot out of the straps fairly often. I generally find when I really want to get the foil loose and crank upwind, having my back foot right on the rail is key.

Maybe you should talk to Severne again. I have seen a new foil board but don't know when being released

Maybe be similar to below ????

How is that "wide frontstraps & single backstrap" setting working for you? Isn't it kind of unnatural to keep yout balance that way? Do you have to bend your front leg once powered up or can you remain upright?

I haven't tried this board, I made for it for someone else. Looks like he uses the inner front strap inserts

Select to expand quote

Faff said..

thedoor said..
I experimented with shore fuselage about 2 years ago and it was impossible to gybe

Maybe you've gotten better since.

hopefully

Select to expand quote

NicoDC said..

DarrylG said..

swoosh said..
I think for serious foilstylers, they may just end up with slightly shorter freestyle boards, with a foil compatible box. Kind of like the Fanatic Foilstyler, or a lot of the current FS boards from the big brands come foil ready. Just because it's a familiar shape for the high level freestylers.

For more average punters, who probably more want a "FSW or Supercross" style board, for carving tricks, and some less technical jumps (nothing switch stance etc), which I'd count myself part of, I'd like my next board to be a cross between the Slingshot Wizard 90 & 114, and the Severne Alien 105. Or maybe just the MB Pegusus. I'm thinking similar to NicoDC:
- 105L or so board, 150-180 long x 60-65 wide. I'm 80kg, I'd like the volume for easy slogging, and the short length for easy storage.
- DT + US Box options. For my I'm leaning towards racier foils as in my opinion they are superior for all aspects of foiling I'm interested in, including light wind. Once you develop the pumping ability, I think something relatively high aspect around 900cm2 front wing is perfect foil size for someone my weight from 10-25kts as a single wing solution.
- The bottom shape of the Alien, it's super forgiving, and I don't think its necessary to go super silly with the cutouts like the slingshot. I like the rocker and the big bevels. I actually question realistically if the rear cutouts are necessary at all.
- More deck pad and single rear strap option like the Wizards.

I think I prefer the wide square tail of these boards (for the reasons mentioned above for easy of cranking upwind), tho the MB Pegasus carries all of its width to the front of the rear footstrap, so may be the best option of the lot, as it basically ticks all the boxes except for carrying the tail width all the way to the back. But watching how Balz sails it, he seems to sail rear foot out of the straps fairly often. I generally find when I really want to get the foil loose and crank upwind, having my back foot right on the rail is key.

Maybe you should talk to Severne again. I have seen a new foil board but don't know when being released

Maybe be similar to below ????

How is that "wide frontstraps & single backstrap" setting working for you? Isn't it kind of unnatural to keep yout balance that way? Do you have to bend your front leg once powered up or can you remain upright?

I have the wide front single backstrap too, but I'm not in the backstrap unless powering up for a jump. It doesnt feel unnatural to me, except that the distance between the front and backstraps is a little off (too long) because of how triangles work ;). I haven't yet tried centered frontstraps tho and having my foilboard modified soon for that purpose.