Hi all new poster but regular reader.I have the Starboard GT foil and sail open ocean,i have had 10-12 sessions and am comfortable most of the time except when a gust hits and am out the back in large rolling swell I can't keep the nose down despite all my weight on front ft and as much mast foot pressure I can gather.Are there any tips to help control these moments,rather than change down?

Maybe try a washer (or square plastic bread tie) under the rear of the stabilizer foil.. and leaning the hips slightly forward might also help.

The set up is fine when the wind drops,it's only the gusts that worry me also I should of had rigged the 4.2.Thanks David John I will also experiment with bread tie

Moving your sail right back in the mast track will reduce the effect gusts etc have on your pitch.

And a bit more downhaul.

And crank upwind in the gusts.

In gusty weather outhaul and downhaul are your friend! Really crank both, in the gusts you'll have plenty to get flying, and once you're up you dont need the power anyway. In really gusty conditions plain 'killing' the sail like you'd never do with windsurfing can work very well, since you dont need the power anyway.

Some other things which cause your kit to rise in gusts:
- Harnesslines too far forward (so more backhandpreassure in gusts, translating to preasure on the backfoot)
- Too much rake (nose of the board too high up)

Though I'd very much advise to first fiddle with outhaul and downhaul and shift your lines back, and only as a last resort reduce rake, for I've seen very few people with too much rake and too little rake is way way way worse than too much.

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finno3 said..
Hi all new poster but regular reader.I have the Starboard GT foil and sail open ocean,i have had 10-12 sessions and am comfortable most of the time except when a gust hits and am out the back in large rolling swell I can't keep the nose down despite all my weight on front ft and as much mast foot pressure I can gather.Are there any tips to help control these moments,rather than change down?

Turning more up wind in gusts is a pretty common strategy when overpowered and there is a need to make sure you maintain mastfoot pressure even when overpowered, but how you set up your straps and mast base can have a big impact on your ability to handle more power in your foil

I don't know about race foils but for freeride foiling we can increase the leverage we have over the foil but moving our footstraps. The further the front foot is from the foil mast the more impact shifting your bodyweight has on pushing down a lifting foil. At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth (lots of tech dudes on this forum) I will try and explain with a diagram.



For example on one of my boards Levitator 150 the mast track the foot strap inserts and mast track are further apart (same as the first generation of wizards), so as the mast track is forward this means the foot straps have to be more aft so that things stay balanced. For me, at 75kg this gives me the following settings: sail universal about 40 in from foil mast and front strap about halfway in between the two. But on a board with more compact geometry eg the Freestyle 115 the mast track is further back so it is possible to set things up in a manner where the front foot is further forward from the back strap. So my settings on the freestyle put the sail mast about 36 inch from foil and front strap about 24 inch forward of the foil (I refer to this as compact geometry). The average total leverage between the two set ups (compact versus standard) is the same or else the foil would not stay balanced, but in compact geometry the front foot has greater influence over the total torque as it is further forward from the pivot point. The conclusion is that when I shift my weight I can increase and decrease the downward torque on the foil to a much greater extent when in compact geometry. And to be honest, when in standard geometry I am unable to use the back strap because I need to be able to shift my back foot forward to increase leverage over a strongly lifting foil (i think this is not an issue with race foilers though).

Some caveats (free ride foiling only):
1) big dudes have more weight to shift so they can get away with standard geometry and often are comfortable using the back strap.
2) standard geometry is less agile so generally a better set up for people still learning to foil gybe.
3) compact geometry makes it easier to adjust your foil height in big swell
4) I find inboard straps better for increasing front foot pressure without the board wanting to turn up wind
5) I try and keep the universal and strap arrangement consistent and use the foil tracks to adjust the position of the foil to match those settings when using different wings.

A week ago i was out windsurfing not foiling on my 6.8m Loft Switchblade in winds gusting to low twenties.

It looked around 5 knots less from shore but i still put a decent amount of downhaul on twisting off to the third batten down.

i was fighting it in the gusts and then when i went to do a gybe i could not sheet in enough to initiate the carve so i ended up just dropping it n the water and then flicking the sail over there

So i sailed back to shore wishing i had brought a smaller sail.

I had a 10 mm gap on the downhaul and asked a strong bloke if he would be so kind if he could add the extra 10mm.

I then had one of the most enjoyable sails of the season so far only getting overpowered once in a really strong gust.

The sail felt way faster for top end as it was able to release the power in the head of the sail. So much sweeter to sail that i am not sure if i will ever rig it again with the original downhaul.

And way easier also to head off downwind to do a gybe.


Another thing i have noticed especially on larger sails is the top eyelet on the clew feels terrible when there is good wind.

On five and six metre sails the difference in feel between the two eyelets is much less noticeable.

Lower eyelet feels a good bit faster to me.

In that situation the easiest thing to do is 1) keep an eye out for the gusts, I can see them coming from at least a 1/4 mile away; 2) unhook before gust hits you; 3) get the board down close to the water using front foot pressure and downward boom pressure Before the gust hits you; and 4) like WofH said outhaul to flatten out the sail. Now I have never outhauled inflight, maybe others more experienced will respond. But after getting caught in way overpowering gusty sessions several times, and having to stop on the water for 10-20 min., I reinstalled my adjustable outhaul lines. In overpowered conditions with an outhauled/flattened sail you can stay in-flight with the sail swung out almost parallel to the wind, and of course unhooked and maybe only a foot off the water. It is easier to counter the effect of a gust when you are lower in-flight and have front foot pressure already on the board, and are using the boom to push the sail mast down onto the board.

One fact of life for all of us in this sport is that any lifting device will lift more when the speed increases. If we don't anticipate this with our balance point we breach, and then--usually--crash. I least I do. Strong gusty conditions (like in the gorge) can make foiling a real headache to keep the lift under control.

The recommendations above all help to mitigate this.

For my case, what has worked the best is good old-fashioned time on foil (TOF). When you have developed the muscle memory and the brain-cell understanding of what is going on, you can foil with fun in gusty conditions. It is amazing to see the really good foilers out there in frightful conditions just owning the water and having a great time.

One thing I will be working on next summer (winter here in the northern hemi), is shimming the stab to reduce the down angle such that changes in speed have a lesser effect on changes in lift. Just lesser, not zero. I think this will be important for a race foil, but works also for freeride foils. This will require me to use my back foot more to haul it into the air, but we are used to that from slalom finning.

Thanks for the tips,tightening up the sail,and heading upwind I will try next
i also think I need to head to a more free ride set up (the West Australians and there ocean foiling is what I am striving for)
I sail alone here with no one compare and ask advise so this forum is it for me thank you.

Having spent a bit of time overhearing briefings from race coaches, they talk about adjusting the mast foot position according to wind strength (forward for stronger wind) adjust outhaul (adjustables) and staying reasonably sheeted in so that the increased wind pressure in the sail turns into mast foot pressure that counters the foils increased lift (just as you need to on a proper slalom set up to avoid blowing up). Plus they run their straps overlong and flat so they can rotate their heels forward to move weight forward (or take back foot out altogether and move it forward). Also focus on upwind or downwind (at high speed so low apparent) when overpowered as cross wind is a disaster.

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Smidgeuk said..
Having spent a bit of time overhearing briefings from race coaches, they talk about adjusting the mast foot position according to wind strength (forward for stronger wind) adjust outhaul (adjustables) and staying reasonably sheeted in so that the increased wind pressure in the sail turns into mast foot pressure that counters the foils increased lift (just as you need to on a proper slalom set up to avoid blowing up). Plus they run their straps overlong and flat so they can rotate their heels forward to move weight forward (or take back foot out altogether and move it forward). Also focus on upwind or downwind (at high speed so low apparent) when overpowered as cross wind is a disaster.

I definitely have a very wide back strap (www.slingshotsports.com/2020-Surf-Strap) so I can adjust its fore/aft placement a bit. I also do the heel rotating thing too.

I am on the other extreme, which isn't that uncomfortable in gusty conditions. Foil & front straps most forward, mast close to the back position. Harness at regular windsurf position, meaning completely balanced at powered conditions. Usually I ride without back straps.
If a gust hits the sail it pins the board down to the water. It feels quite natural to normal windsurfing, as you have to anticipate gusts by slightly increasing back foot pressure to counteract the sails down force.
Continue playing around to find your setup.

Sailed today dead onshore 15-22kts washing machine swell! Rigged the 4.8 again. Mast base hard forward flattened sail.Sailed out of harness and in gusts totaling sheeted out hips as far forward as poss
really tried to get over board, worked well and enjoyed the sail with nasty 1-2m chop! However was totally cooked after 1.5 hrs bloody hard work!.
Question, is sailing in the ocean always this taxing? Or do I need to change my foil to lower aspect?

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finno3 said..
Sailed today dead onshore 15-22kts washing machine swell! Rigged the 4.8 again. Mast base hard forward flattened sail.Sailed out of harness and in gusts totaling sheeted out hips as far forward as poss
really tried to get over board, worked well and enjoyed the sail with nasty 1-2m chop! However was totally cooked after 1.5 hrs bloody hard work!.
Question, is sailing in the ocean always this taxing? Or do I need to change my foil to lower aspect?

You sailed a lot out of the harness for 1.5 hours. Yes, I imagine you were cooked.

A bigger, low aspect wing will let you slow down and swell surf in those conditions so you don't always need to be on the gas pedal. Unless you are already in great shape, you'll get stronger just by doing this more often which will make it less taxing. Also, you'll be more relaxed and less tense with more time in these conditions. It's easier to stay in the harness if you use the gusts to go upwind and then the lulls to play on the swell back down.

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Paducah said..

finno3 said..
Sailed today dead onshore 15-22kts washing machine swell! Rigged the 4.8 again. Mast base hard forward flattened sail.Sailed out of harness and in gusts totaling sheeted out hips as far forward as poss
really tried to get over board, worked well and enjoyed the sail with nasty 1-2m chop! However was totally cooked after 1.5 hrs bloody hard work!.
Question, is sailing in the ocean always this taxing? Or do I need to change my foil to lower aspect?

You sailed a lot out of the harness for 1.5 hours. Yes, I imagine you were cooked.

A bigger, low aspect wing will let you slow down and swell surf in those conditions so you don't always need to be on the gas pedal. Unless you are already in great shape, you'll get stronger just by doing this more often which will make it less taxing. Also, you'll be more relaxed and less tense with more time in these conditions. It's easier to stay in the harness if you use the gusts to go upwind and then the lulls to play on the swell back down.

Agreed.

@OP

Foiling should be a lot less taxing than windsurfing, but I cannot imagine sailing unhooked the whole time. Also I wouldn't be able to hold the nose down without the mast foot pressure I apply through the harness. Perhaps lengthen your harness lines so you can still sheetout without unhooking. This line from Jeffrey Henderson resonates with me a bit "The tight leech not only provides giant power in very little wind, it also allows the sail to be controlled more by sheet angle and less by twist like modern windsurfing sails."

www.hotsailsmaui.com/tech/superfly/

For most people smaller foils require more sail, which I definitively find more demanding, but it still should be less than WS. Freeride wings do allow people to use less sail, but I would not go bigger than about 1500 sqcm if the wind is strong.

I do think it is important to try different styles of wings to get a feel for what you like and what suits your typical conditions. Many slalom dudes would switch to wave/B&J gear when the conditions get real big.

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finno3 said..
Sailed today dead onshore 15-22kts washing machine swell! Rigged the 4.8 again. Mast base hard forward flattened sail.Sailed out of harness and in gusts totaling sheeted out hips as far forward as poss
really tried to get over board, worked well and enjoyed the sail with nasty 1-2m chop! However was totally cooked after 1.5 hrs bloody hard work!.
Question, is sailing in the ocean always this taxing? Or do I need to change my foil to lower aspect?

finno,
Good on ya for being out there at all! Those are some of the most challenging conditions to sail in and you had fun for 1.5 hours! It's tough getting clear of the soup and shallow water. For me the magic wind angle is side shore with just enough on shore angle to it that you wil get blown ashore if you break something. At this wind angle you are reaching through the surf zone making it easy to get in and out.
If you enjoyed that ride your gonna love side shore, stay safe and keep charging!

As a long time dedicated wave sailor who is getting fussier in what he will go out in,foiling has revolutionised my sailing time onshore 'crap' is now awesome fun being able to float over horrible chop and play on the large swell out the back.
My goal is to confidently do ocean downwinders and to sail offshore Bomboras.
I do realise I need another set up and will scour the forum to find the right foil and board.

When you sail unhooked, you shove the rig forward, towards the nose, to keep low.

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finno3 said..
Hi all new poster but regular reader.I have the Starboard GT foil and sail open ocean,i have had 10-12 sessions and am comfortable most of the time except when a gust hits and am out the back in large rolling swell I can't keep the nose down despite all my weight on front ft and as much mast foot pressure I can gather.Are there any tips to help control these moments,rather than change down?

Hey I think you have gott'n a ton of great advise, not the least of which is more time will help.

I have seen guys ripping it up in Narly 3.0 conditions with small foils and having a blast employing much of the advise given here. You can see where their front knee is actually bent forward dealing with too much lift.

I am not good enough to shift my weight to my front foot and the mast base quickly enough so when sailing in overpowered conditions I simply move both feet a couple of cm forward which helps me feel more balanced. However I do foil strapless which works for me.

LeeD, are you rigging the sail further forward in the mast track or tilting the sail forward?

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finno3 said..My goal is to confidently do ocean downwinders and to sail offshore Bomboras.
I do realise I need another set up and will scour the forum to find the right foil and board.

Freestyle 87L and Infinity 65cm wing - epic for ocean downwinders when it's on (I might be biased )

Keep both legs bent, wide stance, practice moving your weight between your feet quickly in response to swells - until it's a subconscious movement

Have been looking at the slingshot 105l and an infinity 75 has anyone any experience with axis foils? Azymuth your style of foiling is what attracted me to foiling ,smooth and seamless.And our conditions are very similar however prob more frontal and gusty.
Do you sail in hooked in? And do you use back straps?

Marc5.
My setup is like all around freeride windsurfing.....stance and rig placement.
Overpowered, some guys stay in footstraps, unhook, and move their rig towards the nose...tilt..to weight the nose.
I don't normally. I just turn hard upwind and foil close to course race angles for a while, then turn quickly downwind to ride the windswells back to my original position.