There has been plenty of discussion about minimum foiling wind speeds. The Nacra Olympic class (foiling catamaran) world champs just finished in Nova Scotia in the bay where I do all my sailing. The last day had very light winds. The top teams were able to foil in 7 knots and hit speeds of 13. The race announcer also referred to day 1 as "ridiculously high winds." It was a gusty SE, not a common wind, with gusts of 25-28. I was foiling comfortably with a 3.9 and my windsurfing buddy had a 7.2. Olympic sailors must be wimps!

Done a 4 knot session once.
/edit

Harry has more skill than me. Didn't need as much to get going...
/edit

I have foiled in negative 5 knots, now that was really hard

But seriously, I have started taking an accurate wind meter with me on the water, and dropping the sail, to see what the wind speed is out on the bay, versus on the shore.

Select to expand quote

berowne said..
Done a 4 knot session once.

/edit

Harry has more skill than me. Didn't need as much to get going...

/edit

Was Harry getting assistance from the ground swell in Botany Bay?

Select to expand quote

John340 said..

berowne said..
Done a 4 knot session once.

/edit

Harry has more skill than me. Didn't need as much to get going...

/edit

Was Harry getting assistance from the ground swell in Botany Bay?

Yes definately helped! That day had upto a 1M swell heading East.
The next day the swell dropped to about half, and we had 50cm westerly wind chop in 20kts of wind made conditions 'fun'

To the point of 7kts... 7m sail and 1000 wing is all you really need. 10m will help for racing, but for fun a smaller sail on a bigger wing is super easy. Pump AND Bounce to get up!

Select to expand quote

NS320 said..
There has been plenty of discussion about minimum foiling wind speeds. The Nacra Olympic class (foiling catamaran) world champs just finished in Nova Scotia in the bay where I do all my sailing. The last day had very light winds. The top teams were able to foil in 7 knots and hit speeds of 13. The race announcer also referred to day 1 as "ridiculously high winds." It was a gusty SE, not a common wind, with gusts of 25-28. I was foiling comfortably with a 3.9 and my windsurfing buddy had a 7.2. Olympic sailors must be wimps!

Try to use the same gear in 7knts and 28knts and see who the wimp is

The kiters still plane far earlier when the wind drops below 10 knots.

I have watched them plane in wind as low as 6 knots on the Swan River.

For windfoilers the lowest is around 8 knots but mostly they get going around 10 knots

For windsufers perhaps around 10 knots. but most need around 12 knots.

Perhaps with the new 1200 wing we will see the planing threshold drop a bit.

Kiters and wingers can plane up in less wind because they have a force component that goes UP. This helps lift them onto the foil. A sail's force component is horizontal only. All UP is generated only by the front wing, which requires board speed. I once watched a 15 year old kid, at all of 120 pounds body weight, with a 6.0 wing and 2100 cm2 front wing, pump up and stay up in wind that I could not even detect. It was the UP that got him there.

I have foiled in 7kt winds enough to know that 7kt with a sail is wishful thinking. As mentioned above, we windfoilers need something like a minimum of 12kt to get going. I don't even launch until I can see at least a few whitecaps. (Now, if I was a really fit 25 year old jock with a 11.0 sail and a 2100 cm2 wing, and pumped like mad, I might be able to fly in 7kt wind.)

I would have to disagree, i see IQ guys starting to foil with their 9.0m2 in 5-6 kn. consistantly. I'm just a bit shy of that with 5.1 M2 and large ~2000cm2 front wing, need a little longer gust to clear. I windfoiled in Cabarete with kitefoilers with 20m2 race kites, they got advantage on IQ guys, maybe 4-5kn start. And there is no whitecaps in view when I start foiling on 5.1m2 sail.

I think you really need to have an accurate wind reading on the water where you are foiling (middle of bay) to make accurate statements about minimum wind speeds needed to foil in, versus a weather station at 30' typically, or on the shore/beach.

My wind reading come from races, where they measure wind on committee boats, many readings from wind guru stations-history,handheld i regularly check against on shore... Another indicator are white caps, as was discussed previously... If i see a white cap or two, i do switch right away my front foil to under <1500cm2 and sail, in most cases 3.3m2, if I'm really not sure 4.2...

White caps form for a number of reasons, including wind speed, the Beaufort scale states:
7-10 knots, Gentle breeze, large wavelets, crests begin to break, scattered whitecaps.

7-10 knots is a very wide range in wind speed for foiling IMO. I think white caps typically form on water at 10 knots and above, when the water is not affected by tides or currents.

tides and currents can help create white caps too, and that complicates this discussion, as does a short gust of 1 to 3 seconds at 10.0 knots can allow me to get up, but not form white caps (I have measured that on the water). So measuring the speed of gusts on the water is very helpful.

So to say you get up in no white caps, which I can too, just means the wind is less than ~10 knots IMO.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..
I think you really need to have an accurate wind reading on the water where you are foiling (middle of bay) to make accurate statements about minimum wind speeds needed to foil in, versus a weather station at 30' typically, or on the shore/beach.

Precisely that. Without an accurate wind reading on the water, we're exchanging exaggerated fishermens' tales :) I'm also guessing, but for example Amado's pumping here definitely looks super light, 5-6 knots probably: www.instagram.com/p/CVN4AfhoBwt/ - even once he's up and flying, he needs to keep pumping.

And @segler, it's very much doable to get up and going in 7 kts average, that's the minimum steady wind limit for IQ racing. With decent pumping technique and appropriate gear, it's definitely doable with a windfoil. Above 10 knots they start course racing, so there's that...

The anemometer that reads the wind on melville water is on a spit post that is out on the water, more than 100m from land. Myself and Subsonic can usually get going on IQ Foil gear at around 6-8 knots on the wind reading.

I was watching a few of the Juniors last week on the Swan with their wide boards and monstrous sized Severne sails.

Mostly 8 and 9 metre in size. A few seniors out as well.

Wind was easterly, anything from 5 knots up to about 18 knots.

I was surprised by how much wind they needed to get going in.

It looked to be around 10 to 12 knots but the wind in a easterly direction on the river is very up and down.

Wingdingers certainly appear to plane earlier.

I have also noticed windfoilers with smaller sails perhaps around 6 to 7 metre size seem to get going almost as early as the ones with the IQ sizes.

I remember watching Ben Severne last year on his Severne foil board with around a 6m get going in around 10 knots.

Select to expand quote

Pcdefender said..
I was watching a few of the Juniors last week on the Swan with their wide boards and monstrous sized Severne sails.

Mostly 8 and 9 metre in size. A few seniors out as well.

Wind was easterly, anything from 5 knots up to about 18 knots.

I was surprised by how much wind they needed to get going in.

It looked to be around 10 to 12 knots but the wind in a easterly direction on the river is very up and down.

Wingdingers certainly appear to plane earlier.

I have also noticed windfoilers with smaller sails perhaps around 6 to 7 metre size seem to get going almost as early as the ones with the IQ sizes.

I remember watching Ben Severne last year on his Severne foil board with around a 6m get going in around 10 knots.

Get going in light winds is an advanced skill, not every IQ foiler can do it, in Miami I know of 3 local guys, and when IQ racing is in town, all top guys can do 5-6 kn, rest same as myself 6-7kn, or need even more wind

Select to expand quote

miamiwindsurfe said..

Pcdefender said..
I was watching a few of the Juniors last week on the Swan with their wide boards and monstrous sized Severne sails.

Mostly 8 and 9 metre in size. A few seniors out as well.

Wind was easterly, anything from 5 knots up to about 18 knots.

I was surprised by how much wind they needed to get going in.

It looked to be around 10 to 12 knots but the wind in a easterly direction on the river is very up and down.

Wingdingers certainly appear to plane earlier.

I have also noticed windfoilers with smaller sails perhaps around 6 to 7 metre size seem to get going almost as early as the ones with the IQ sizes.

I remember watching Ben Severne last year on his Severne foil board with around a 6m get going in around 10 knots.

Get going in light winds is an advanced skill, not every IQ foiler can do it, in Miami I know of 3 local guys, and when IQ racing is in town, all top guys can do 5-6 kn, rest same as myself 6-7kn, or need even more wind

If he was watching what I think he was watching, there was plenty of wind that day. We were doing short races. More a case of not foiling because everyone was hovering around waiting, conserving energy. Getting going in minimum winds takes maximum effort. Especially if you're past your prime.

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

miamiwindsurfe said..

Pcdefender said..
I was watching a few of the Juniors last week on the Swan with their wide boards and monstrous sized Severne sails.

Mostly 8 and 9 metre in size. A few seniors out as well.

Wind was easterly, anything from 5 knots up to about 18 knots.

I was surprised by how much wind they needed to get going in.

It looked to be around 10 to 12 knots but the wind in a easterly direction on the river is very up and down.

Wingdingers certainly appear to plane earlier.

I have also noticed windfoilers with smaller sails perhaps around 6 to 7 metre size seem to get going almost as early as the ones with the IQ sizes.

I remember watching Ben Severne last year on his Severne foil board with around a 6m get going in around 10 knots.

Get going in light winds is an advanced skill, not every IQ foiler can do it, in Miami I know of 3 local guys, and when IQ racing is in town, all top guys can do 5-6 kn, rest same as myself 6-7kn, or need even more wind

If he was watching what I think he was watching, there was plenty of wind that day. We were doing short races. More a case of not foiling because everyone was hovering around waiting, conserving energy. Getting going in minimum winds takes maximum effort. Especially if you're past your prime.

I thought of that too after, most of the time in race practices spent waiting for another race, idling, prepping. From outside view people not moving much, conserving energy and strength

10 kt has twice the kinetic energy that 7 kt has. (10/7)**2 = 2.04.

I measure wind speed out on the water in the middle of whatever body of water I'm on. I use a calibrated anemometer held above my head. 7 kt for me is wishful thinking. 10 kt starts to work, but takes work. 12 -15 kt is the sweet spot for foiling.

With race gear (9-10 m2 sail, 1000 wing, etc.) it gets quite easy to foil in 10 knots, I think it goes even without or with minimal pumping. Providing the water is relatively flat, 10 knots in nasty chop is a different league for me. But as long as it's nicely flat, 7-8 knots is doable with decent pumping. And even less with superb pumping by a fellow forum member: www.instagram.com/p/B1yGKGhAL-B/

What kind of calibrated anemometer do you use? I imagine the small hand-held ones aren't as accurate as industrial ones.

Select to expand quote

FormuIa said..
With race gear (9-10 m2 sail, 1000 wing, etc.) it gets quite easy to foil in 10 knots, I think it goes even without or with minimal pumping. Providing the water is relatively flat, 10 knots in nasty chop is a different league for me. But as long as it's nicely flat, 7-8 knots is doable with decent pumping. And even less with superb pumping by a fellow forum member: www.instagram.com/p/B1yGKGhAL-B/

What kind of calibrated anemometer do you use? I imagine the small hand-held ones aren't as accurate as industrial ones.

Yeah flat and 10knots with race gear isn't too hard.

Also, the difficulty with wind measurement on the water is: how are you all accounting for drift? If you're falling 2 knots downwind from current and wind drift you'll measure different than an anchored committee boat...

Yep, measuring true windspeed is always going to have a limited circumstance where you can actually measure it and verify you were foiling/got going.

for me just looking at the flat near windless water whilst on the foil and being able to say "really? Im actually able to get up and going in this?" Is pleasure enough. To think 5 years ago i spent most of winter at home on the couch, because i needed 15knots for some decent fun..

I drop my sail into the water to act as a giant sea anchor to prevent drift.

The wind meter I use is an ancient Bernoulli ball-in-tube Dwyer that we compared with other engineering ball-in-tube devices in a Boeing wind tunnel. I got it in 1973 and only need to keep the tube clean. A couple years ago I checked it by running my boat on a flatwater lake on a calm day and checking the meter against GPS speed (a poor man's wind tunnel). I averaged opposite directions to make sure to cancel out any wind that might have been present. Still accurate.

Comparing champions on specialist kit does not indicate what most people will achieve. From what I see if you want to get going in light winds the order is kite, wind, wing. The most impressive I've seen was some pro kitefoil racers with 18m kites, not what most people will ever use.

Select to expand quote

patronus said..
Comparing champions on specialist kit does not indicate what most people will achieve. From what I see if you want to get going in light winds the order is kite, wind, wing. The most impressive I've seen was some pro kitefoil racers with 18m kites, not what most people will ever use.

Correct.

but i must say, when i've watched the race kite foilers rather impressively powering along in mirror finish conditions. It's also ended up being a looong swim in for them when they drop a tack or gybe. It seems no matter how big and impressive your weapon is, you still need something there to get it up

Select to expand quote

patronus said..
Comparing champions on specialist kit does not indicate what most people will achieve. From what I see if you want to get going in light winds the order is kite, wind, wing. The most impressive I've seen was some pro kitefoil racers with 18m kites, not what most people will ever use.

It really depends a lot on what skills and gear the people you see have. A couple of years ago, kite foilers ruled in light wind at our home spot (if we ignore the one light race board windsurfer who competes on the world level). Now, the best winger is flying just as early, if not earlier, on a 6.0 wing with a 1550 front wing. The kite foiler who used to be "the" light wind guy still switches to his kite when it gets light, since he's not efficient with the wing yet. I wonder if he'll ever get there, since he often switches to the kite when it gets light. His primary motivation for winging in light wind is that he really does not like the swims when the wind drops almost completely. Wingers can still sit on their boards and wait for the little bit of onshore wind to push them in, even if the kite can't fly anymore.

If we ignore the racers (we see maybe one or two a year on Cape Cod when they visit), then the differences in the "get going order" somewhat reflects how long the gear has been around. The kite foilers have a few years of head start on the wing. Wings (and skills) for light wind use are still improving rapidly. Maybe kite foilers will keep an edge in steady winds, but at places where you regularly see big drops, wings have a big advantage. Never mind that learning to wing foil seems quite a bit easier to learn. Some of the quick learners can get steady flights and dry jibes in a day with proper instruction. I don't know what the kite foiling learning curve is, but I've heard is harder, and the only example of a kiter trying to learn to foil (without success) was somewhere between really funny and really sad. Maybe if he had not tried on expert gear he would have had more success..

Select to expand quote

Pcdefender said..


Wingdingers certainly appear to plane earlier.

It probably depends on gear. Where I sail the wingers seem to actually plane later than windfoils (or even windsurfs on big gear). Not to mention what happens to them when the wind drops. Sure they can seat on their boards when kites sink ... but they still drift. There is a procession of wingers getting stranded where I sail when the wind drops.

I know it's little off topic but I think it shows what is possible with good technique and gear. Link taken from Seabreeze SUP foil forum. No wind foiling www.instagram.com/reel/Ciivpogh9by/?igshid=NTlmMWMyMzg=

Original post is here www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Flat-water-paddle-up-no-paddle-Jeremy-Riggs?page=1#9

Select to expand quote

AdiZi said..
I know it's little off topic but I think it shows what is possible with good technique and gear. Link taken from Seabreeze SUP foil forum. No wind foiling www.instagram.com/reel/Ciivpogh9by/?igshid=NTlmMWMyMzg=

Original post is here www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Flat-water-paddle-up-no-paddle-Jeremy-Riggs?page=1#9

I guess the order for light wind is kite/wind/wing because
1. You can get you 10m ram air kite up in 3-4 knots and create 20knot apparent wind rom downstroke to get you up flying and keep an apparent wind
2. A sail is more efficient than a wing, and you can pump though big gear is hard
3. Wings limited to say 8m and are relatively inefficient
Loads of money being invested in winging so more progress in store than more mature foiling sports