What angle are the fast guys doing their speed runs roughly on. Off the wind like when on the fin, 120ish degrees. Or can it be anywhere

Berowne has a great index of threads and he's one of the fastest guys here.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Index-of-All-Technique-Threads

The one on reaching 30+ knots is probably the most relevant, maybe the downwind one.

It depends on your equipment, I think. For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind, I have gone so fast upwind that breaches become smooth transitions with the foil going from water, to air, back to water in one smooth motion with no decrease in speed, do not know how fast I was going in knots but it was fast!

I'm a small guy on free ride gear, but 120 degrees (broad reach) sounds about right. My best was 21 knots in 25 knots of wind on a 3.7 sail. PFI730 wing.

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Sandman1221 said..
For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind

Am I the only one who finds this weird...

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bel29 said..

Sandman1221 said..
For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind

Am I the only one who finds this weird...

No

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bel29 said..

Sandman1221 said..
For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind

Am I the only one who finds this weird...

No

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aeroegnr said..

bel29 said..

Sandman1221 said..
For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind

Am I the only one who finds this weird...

No

No

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bel29 said..

Sandman1221 said..
For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind

Am I the only one who finds this weird...

While you were away, you... um, missed some things. Another in the no camp.

No

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bel29 said..

Sandman1221 said..
For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind

Am I the only one who finds this weird...

No, I actually avoid broad reaches when overpowered but can go upwind confortably instead, I feel a lot of wind in the face but powerwise is more manegaeable. Broad reaches are the ones I feel the more power, then going downwind the more i get away from the wind the les power I feel because I tend to go faster than the wind.

It is also strange to see WindsurfAustin max speed to be less than wind speed, I would say normally we should go faster than wind speed if we charge it. America's Cup foil boats they get 4 times wind speed, because of the very efficient foils and sails, We can't do the same even with best performing world cup equipment, but they get 2 times wind speed, with freeride equipment we should get 1.2-1.3 at least...I should start getting a GPS to meausure speed...I am getting curious.

By the way what are the best smart watches for reliable and precise GPS measurements and memorize tracks, distances and so on? What do you use?

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bel29 said..

Sandman1221 said..
For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind

Am I the only one who finds this weird...

Coming from Sandy, the man who brought the concept that 23.5 inch harness lines are comfy to seabreeze, not weird at all.

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dimacced said..

bel29 said..

Sandman1221 said..
For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind

Am I the only one who finds this weird...

No, I actually avoid broad reaches when overpowered but can go upwind confortably instead, I feel a lot of wind in the face but powerwise is more manegaeable. Broad reaches are the ones I feel the more power, then going downwind the more i get away from the wind the les power I feel because I tend to go faster than the wind.

It is also strange to see WindsurfAustin max speed to be less than wind speed, I would say normally we should go faster than wind speed if we charge it. America's Cup foil boats they get 4 times wind speed, because of the very efficient foils and sails, We can't do the same even with best performing world cup equipment, but they get 2 times wind speed, with freeride equipment we should get 1.2-1.3 at least...I should start getting a GPS to meausure speed...I am getting curious.

By the way what are the best smart watches for reliable and precise GPS measurements and memorize tracks, distances and so on? What do you use?

Yup. upwind is loud, noisy, and blows your hair back but downwind it quiets up and goes faster...

For watches, the guys on the speed/gps forum here have a list I think. I like my Garmin Fenix BUT I think there are limitations on GPS gear that are used for official GPS times and only some equipment is permitted for that. Not sure if Fenix's count for that? I just didn't want a touch screen, longer battery life than others, and haven't had any problems in over a year.

WindsurfAustin is on a lower aspect freeride. He may be pushing the top speed of that foil (or not? I'm not sure), but he is riding that style pretty quick, as it's an improvement on the infinity 76 and is 1400+cm2 area. I think it handles top end better than the infinities as I lost control at more like 17-19 knots on mine, WindsurfAustin would probably pass me easily on similar gear and a few others I know that go fast on freeride stuff. The freeride stuff around 1100-1300cm2 is fairly fast now, approaching the speeds of race foils on some angles, but without the high upwind or deep downwind performance angles.

High aspect race foils with big sails are pretty easy to get to 2x wind speed, but we're talking about wind speed in the 8-15knot range. 20knot board speed in 10knots with IQFoil gear (900cm2 front, long fuse, 9.0) isn't particularly difficult (I say this as I did it with pretty bad technique), but pushing into the mid 20s really takes balls and skill that not a lot of people have. The gear is capable but it takes the right day and conditions and rider. And a lot of the time with the big 9.0s they get backwinded on the jibes and you feel it pushing the clew through the apparent wind in these light conditions.

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dimacced said..
.... No, I actually avoid broad reaches when overpowered but can go upwind confortably instead, I feel a lot of wind in the face but powerwise is more manegaeable. Broad reaches are the ones I feel the more power, then going downwind the more i get away from the wind the les power I feel because I tend to go faster than the wind.

It is also strange to see WindsurfAustin max speed to be less than wind speed, I would say normally we should go faster than wind speed if we charge it. America's Cup foil boats they get 4 times wind speed, because of the very efficient foils and sails, We can't do the same even with best performing world cup equipment, but they get 2 times wind speed, with freeride equipment we should get 1.2-1.3 at least...I should start getting a GPS to meausure speed...I am getting curious.

By the way what are the best smart watches for reliable and precise GPS measurements and memorize tracks, distances and so on? What do you use?

For those of us with less cojones, broad reaches with the back foot in the middle of the board are a little less scary. All foils have a drag/speed wall and bigger/draggier wings just hit it sooner. You can add wind but you aren't going to really push the numbers up at that point. There's also a limit to how much power your body weight can control and lighter foilers simply can't hold down as much power. As a lightweight, I'm wound up on an 8.0 at a fairly low wind speed and, after that, I'm just dumping power. OTOH, the upside is that lightwind days are still crazy fun for me.

Windsport Tracker, an android app which works well on older (ie cheap used) phones has an audible call out feature. You can set it to call out the speeds at intervals, say, every 2 sec. It helps give you an idea of what speeds you are traveling and what changes youu can make to improve. .For example, getting higher on the foil gives me another knot. It also does the usual 2s, 10s, 500m, etc stats plus alphas. It does a nice polar graph so you can see what speeds you have vs an interpolated wind direction which will also answer the original question of what broad angle works best for speed and what angles optimize upwind VMG.

windsporttracker.com
play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.sunbits.windsporttracker

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Paducah said..

For those of us with less cojones, broad reaches with the back foot in the middle of the board are a little less scary.

My fastest speeds have all been like this. Didn't know that I had a new PB (not that fast, 23knots) until I looked at my watch after the jibe...

The "hunting around for sail pressure" mentioned in Berowne's Downwind thread is something I want to try. I just usually run out of room before the shallows here.

Fast upwind is about 20kts maybe a few more as I'm provably not the best upwind!

Fast downwind is over 30 knots! Typically 100 to 130 degree's I would suggest. Similar to luderitz speed canal angles since the aero dynamics are the same...

Below polar suggets the wind was pure south, but felt more SE than that, so suspect the angle might have been more like 110 to 120. not sure with 100% confidence as the land affects the angle where I was sailing.

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berowne said..
Fast upwind is about 20kts maybe a few more as I'm provably not the best upwind!

Fast downwind is over 30 knots! Typically 100 to 130 degree's I would suggest. Similar to luderitz speed canal angles since the aero dynamics are the same...

Below polar suggets the wind was pure south, but felt more SE than that, so suspect the angle might have been more like 110 to 120. not sure with 100% confidence as the land affects the angle where I was sailing.

Thanks Berowne, there's nothing like empirical evidence to debunk the ignorant and or bull****ters

This is from a session in July at Portland Harbour, Weymouth, UK, when I did my PBs. I'd done about 34 sessions (40-50 hours) on the foil, so still learning, certainly not fast.
Its flat next to the beach, once I'd walked out 300m to deeper water. This session there was a moored boat on the speed course, so that limited the direction of the runs a bit.
There is an anemometer on the harbour wall 3km downwind to provide the wind direction. That records data in 10 minute intervals, average direction, backed and veered extremes, speed average, minimum and maximum.
My best 5 top 10s runs were 112 to 126 off the average wind direction at the time of run, but there were variations in backed/veered of 17 - 23 degrees. But all were off the wind, never upwind

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Sandman1221 said..
It depends on your equipment, I think. For my freeride equipment with forward harness lines, it is upwind, I have gone so fast upwind that breaches become smooth transitions with the foil going from water, to air, back to water in one smooth motion with no decrease in speed, do not know how fast I was going in knots but it was fast!

I bet it wasnt fast, do you have a GPS?
If you are faster going upwind there must be something wrong with your technique.

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aeroegnr said..

WindsurfAustin is on a lower aspect freeride. He may be pushing the top speed of that foil (or not? I'm not sure), but he is riding that style pretty quick, as it's an improvement on the infinity 76 and is 1400+cm2 area. I think it handles top end better than the infinities as I lost control at more like 17-19 knots.

That's a pretty accurate observation IMO. That speed was me really maxed out on the ragged edge. I don't think I could go any faster (I'll keep trying though ). I have a wind sensor on my boat dock, and just referenced the max gust of 25 knots, but no guarantee what it was when I hit 21 knots. Seems I reach diminishing returns at the top end of the speed. I lose sail pressure, and don't carry apparent wind angles any where near the guy on the IQ foil with a 9m sail ( as expected). Speed is fun, but I'm more about the carvy, tight turns of freeride foils.

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BSN101 said..
What angle are the fast guys doing their speed runs roughly on. Off the wind like when on the fin, 120ish degrees. Or can it be anywhere

22.6 knot peak - 21.8 knots 10s average. Broad reach in 1.5m chaotic mix of groundswell and windswell.
I find it almost impossible to go faster in turbulent ocean conditions no matter which size foil I use.


4m wavesail, 87L board, 920cm2 front wing, 400cm2 stab with 2mm negative shim (reducing lift).
22 knot SW seabreeze

Foiling Sail GP achieve the highest speeds on various tracks, upwind , down wind and across the wind.
Your fuselage length 100+cm is going to be a factor.Rear wing 255 and front wing 750.Your swing weight is also a factor.one or two cam sail.Harness lines longer than a slapper board set up
Foil speed is more complex than a slapper board speed.
30kts is a milestone that is achievable.
Koombana bay - 28kts using 5.8m 115cm fuselage

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BSN101 said..
What angle are the fast guys doing their speed runs roughly on. Off the wind like when on the fin, 120ish degrees. Or can it be anywhere

At POS are the foilers on the same angle as the fin guys? they always seem a long way out while the small fins allow very close proximity to the beach. Is it super shallow there and the foilers need to be well off the beach? today might be a great day to test angles

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BSN101 said..

BSN101 said..
What angle are the fast guys doing their speed runs roughly on. Off the wind like when on the fin, 120ish degrees. Or can it be anywhere

At POS are the foilers on the same angle as the fin guys? they always seem a long way out while the small fins allow very close proximity to the beach. Is it super shallow there and the foilers need to be well off the beach? today might be a great day to test angles

Don't know how shallow but judging from the beach angle, probably. The fin guys/gals are kissing the sand, they are so close.

"Kissing" he says. Sometimes they "****" it! All the way to Catapult city. and then there is the little channel between a submerged sandbar "eye of the needle" @ 40kts.. No thanks

And sail size matched to front wing size.

And sail size matched to front wing size.

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BSN101 said..
And sail size matched to front wing size.

So out yesterday with patrik board race foil 700 front 250 rear and NP V8 Flight 8.0. So surprised how well it went as I thought that the combo or wing /sail would be miss matched. It wasn't. Needless to say I did have a great explosion on a down wind run. Rear foot out and just too much air. I'm crap at smooth landings from breeches. This leads me to a new thread.. 2sec foiling speed broken down with 10hz gps devices.