Anyone invested in a foil? I am seriously considering it, but very expensive. Increasing number of kiters doing it, but yet to see a windsurfer.

In Perth at the moment and watched a kiter foiling last night in 18 to 20 knots, killing it. Looked like he was flying upwind.

You probably saw the same dude as me in Scarborough. All other kiters were in and out as usual except for those who cannot point and do unplanned down-winders but this guy was running parallel to the shore line. I was pretty amazed but i have no interest...sorry

There was a thread on here not long ago about it, probably a few pages back now...

IMO the dynamics don't work for windsurfing, not without a purpose built board, with the foil placed fore/aft between the footstraps, and footstraps placed centrally rather than out on the rail so they're over the foils. I don't know if you noticed but his board would have been constructed this way.

I've seen some vids of people windsurf foiling, with the foil sitting in a normally placed fin box so it's not impossible, and it would certainly be a new experience cruising along super smooth like, but they can't point up wind like the kite foilers do.

I don't really think there's any speed advantage to them either, they present about as much, if not more wetted surface as a well trimmed planing board will, not mention the added spectacle to catapaults if the foil ventilates.

If there was a purpose built board, maybe they'd give improved upwind performance, any other angle I'd rather be planing.

A super light board say a 107 Sonic and a 7m with the lightest components and a large stiff fin---- you can sort of hydrofoil anyway,especially if you put your boom sky high.

Hydrofoiling does look a bit dangerous to me,though in really light wind say 8-12 knots it could well be the way to go and relatively safe.

as everyone says .. the only thing that makes sense is something like the iFoil
joewindsurfer.blogspot.com/2015/07/new-ifoil-2015.html

Ive just made one and been out 3 times on it. So far, it seems like a normal board is fine for foiling. I would reinforce your fin box though and try use a board that the box meets the deck to get a solid fixing.

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joe windsurf said..
as everyone says .. the only thing that makes sense is something like the iFoil
joewindsurfer.blogspot.com/2015/07/new-ifoil-2015.html

The videos i've seen of the iFoil so far have all been in quite moderate winds. I wonder what the light wind speed capabilities are like as well as its ability to point?

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vpar said..
You probably saw the same dude as me in Scarborough. All other kiters were in and out as usual except for those who cannot point and do unplanned down-winders but this guy was running parallel to the shore line. I was pretty amazed but i have no interest...sorry

Yep - Scarborough.

Nah nah you're doing it all wrong.
What you need are L shape foils on the rails up near the mast track like extreme 45s, an accentuated double V bottom and small foil on the fin.

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KA360 said..

Interesting. I like the question at the end - why has it taken so long to catch on. Cost? Degree of difficulty? Wonder if its as fun as planing without a foil. Lots of questions. For me, if they cost a bit less I'd have one by now.

There's a foil windsurfing concept that I wouldn't hesitate to spend big $$$, in case it can be made to work:

- Mini formula like board (220x85, ~130l), with 2 fin option:
----- foiling setup to use from 7 - ~15 knots
----- non-foling fin to use from ~15 knots - ~25 knots
- ~7.5m2 sail


If the foiling setup (whereever the foil needs to be placed) could decently point upwind, this could be a single board/single sail solution for a very wide wind range, suitable also for non super strong/fit/experienced sailors. I know a good formula sailor can get this range in his board and 10m2 sail (also in longboard raceboard), but not everybody is able/wants to follow FW/raceboard route


Probably this would require:
- a unorthodox shape with tradeoffs, that is, not the best in each of respective foiling/non-foiling setup
- a special technique (and/or footstraps?) for upwind/donwind sailing in foil mode

but for me, a non extreme single board/sail wide range solution would pay off the tradeoffs and foil handle hassle

Do you think it is technically possible?
Do you think is it interesting concept?


Of course, a freeriding version of this single board/sail foiling concept (without upwind pointing abilities) would also be intersting, but with good upwind performace this could be a definitive breakthrough (even with appeal to one-design racing!)

Marc

Bic just released one at ht efrench nautic expo, should be cheaper

bringing the topic back up, as I had my first ever foil windsurf session today.

10 knots
6.0m sail no cam
rrd X fire 122

foil is a proto designed by Benjamin Thillier (he works freelance for GP foils and Sword)

Listened carefully to all his recommendations, and off we went.
Got smashed in the sail as soon as the foil took off, my bad, leaned back (slalom reflex)

Next try got me planning on the foil for over 500m, just had issues keeping it at the same level, was going up and down quite a lot.
And it only got better on each tack !! Going through chop as if there was none !

Speed wasn't my goal today so I didn't use the harness and only managed a 14 pb

All in all a great experience, instant fun and awesome feeling, albeit very scary when the board pops up !!!!!

My main advice, don't try it on your own, ask someone who knows how to sail the blessed thing, you could really hurt yourself badly with the wings.

Nice!

I have been sketching some ideas for an alternative foil setup, just have to figure out how to build them. But we will see, only way to find out is to try. I'm not convinced the current air chair style setup is the best option, but who knows!

@Seanhoagan Thanks for sharing your 1st experience with foils. Please, keep them coming!
I'd like to know if one can stay with foils with, say, a 6-7m2 sail, up to the windspeed to plane with the same board/sail with normal fin

Do you think it's easy to get hurt with the foil? In a hard landing, or when? The board would turn over and expose the foils to knock you?
I also guess waterstarting can be dangerous as well, easy to kick the foil with your feet ... Is that it?

Thanks!

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seanhogan said..
bringing the topic back up, as I had my first ever foil windsurf session today.

10 knots
6.0m sail no cam
rrd X fire 122

foil is a proto designed by Benjamin Thillier (he works freelance for GP foils and Sword)

Listened carefully to all his recommendations, and off we went.
Got smashed in the sail as soon as the foil took off, my bad, leaned back (slalom reflex)

Next try got me planning on the foil for over 500m, just had issues keeping it at the same level, was going up and down quite a lot.
And it only got better on each tack !! Going through chop as if there was none !

Speed wasn't my goal today so I didn't use the harness and only managed a 14 pb

All in all a great experience, instant fun and awesome feeling, albeit very scary when the board pops up !!!!!

My main advice, don't try it on your own, ask someone who knows how to sail the blessed thing, you could really hurt yourself badly with the wings.

where were you? Is the foil visibly different to what we've seen before?

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scottydog said..
Nice!

I have been sketching some ideas for an alternative foil setup, just have to figure out how to build them. But we will see, only way to find out is to try. I'm not convinced the current air chair style setup is the best option, but who knows!

are you willing to elaborate on how your design is different/new/yours.

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BSN101 said..

scottydog said..
Nice!

I have been sketching some ideas for an alternative foil setup, just have to figure out how to build them. But we will see, only way to find out is to try. I'm not convinced the current air chair style setup is the best option, but who knows!

are you willing to elaborate on how your design is different/new/yours.

This may sound funny, but I'm sort of feeling a bit protective of the idea so not shared yet. So kinda want to give it a go myself, a few engineering friends thing the concept looks sound. That said it would also be great to have a great foil designer to run with it and see if it works and develop / refine as I'd love to see windfoiling on the racecourses holding their own with moths.

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scottydog said...

BSN101 said..

scottydog said..
Nice!

I have been sketching some ideas for an alternative foil setup, just have to figure out how to build them. But we will see, only way to find out is to try. I'm not convinced the current air chair style setup is the best option, but who knows!

are you willing to elaborate on how your design is different/new/yours.

This may sound funny, but I'm sort of feeling a bit protective of the idea so not shared yet. So kinda want to give it a go myself, a few engineering friends thing the concept looks sound. That said it would also be great to have a great foil designer to run with it and see if it works and develop / refine as I'd love to see windfoiling on the racecourses holding their own with moths.

I don't know what state you're in Scotty, but you could try Brett Burvill (look up Windrush)or John Illet (Fastacraft) in Perth.

They were both instrumental in the reintroduction of foiling and development of the stable foiling system in the Moths.

Brett tried a few different foil configurations after his first foiler moth (called Windrush oddly enough). And John developed the wand system and T foils that are the basis for the useable foiling setup the moths have today.

I'm pretty sure they're both still in the boat building business, John used to do some work for Brett at Windrush, so Brett should be able to get you in touch with John.

You would need to explain how the loads work on a windsurfer as opposed to a moth, but they're both sailors, so they'll catch on quick.

I guess my previous post could have been viewed as a bit negative. I like the idea of being able to cruise along above the waves, but if you want to see a marked improvement in upwind performance and useability, chucking a ready made T foil into a standard placed fin box won't do it for you.

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MarcCRider said..
@Seanhoagan Thanks for sharing your 1st experience with foils. Please, keep them coming!
I'd like to know if one can stay with foils with, say, a 6-7m2 sail, up to the windspeed to plane with the same board/sail with normal fin

My guess and feedback from Benjamin, who's now a bloody expert (he duck jibes and front loops the blessed thing) is that you can go out in any sort of wind with 1.5 to 2.0 m less than you would on a normal fin

Do you think it's easy to get hurt with the foil? In a hard landing, or when? The board would turn over and expose the foils to knock you?

As soon as the foil lifts too much it looses control and flips out of the water towards your back, so the most important advice Benjamin told me was "NEVER LET GO THE BOOM !!" And indeed it protects you to keep a firm grip on the boom. Hard landing isn't that bad, a bit like a a flat reception after a jump.

I also guess waterstarting can be dangerous as well, easy to kick the foil with your feet ... Is that it?

Yes I saw Benjamin do a couple of waterstarts but when I tried I hit the "fin" straight away, was lucky not to cut myself. So all my session was ponctuated with kneescratching uphauls.....

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BSN101 said..

where were you? Is the foil visibly different to what we've seen before?

Location is Anse Vata nouméa, New Cal

The foil is what Benjamin calls an "entry level foil" he recently designed. Front wing is very "curved" so it lifts very fast and keeps the board flat.

For those interested in design, he recently discovered that it works better with the "stabilizer" (rear wing) attached on top of the "fuselage" that way the front wing (attached under) doesn't disturb it with it's drag.

He's got another design he uses himslef that takes him up to 30 knts !! But as he said it's not as "user friendly".

It fits in a deep tuttle box. No changes to the board.

Among the ton of advice he gave me, use a waist harness, stand straight and forget all about the slalom stance.


I have to admit the feeling is awesome, I can't wait to try it again.

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seanhogan said..

BSN101 said..

where were you? Is the foil visibly different to what we've seen before?

Location is Anse Vata nouméa, New Cal

The foil is what Benjamin calls an "entry level foil" he recently designed. Front wing is very "curved" so it lifts very fast and keeps the board flat.

For those interested in design, he recently discovered that it works better with the "stabilizer" (rear wing) attached on top of the "fuselage" that way the front wing (attached under) doesn't disturb it with it's drag.

He's got another design he uses himslef that takes him up to 30 knts !! But as he said it's not as "user friendly".

It fits in a deep tuttle box. No changes to the board.

Among the ton of advice he gave me, use a waist harness, stand straight and forget all about the slalom stance.


I have to admit the feeling is awesome, I can't wait to try it again.

Rough idea of price. I've baulked at them because of price to date, but would be very keen. I''m a pretty proficient recreational sailer, been at it for decades, how long do you think it would take to get going? You seem to be suggesting you got a buzz right away.

Hate to invest in one and then not use it.

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Subsonic said..


I don't know what state you're in Scotty, but you could try Brett Burvill (look up Windrush)or John Illet (Fastacraft) in Perth.

They were both instrumental in the reintroduction of foiling and development of the stable foiling system in the Moths.

Brett tried a few different foil configurations after his first foiler moth (called Windrush oddly enough). And John developed the wand system and T foils that are the basis for the useable foiling setup the moths have today.

I'm pretty sure they're both still in the boat building business, John used to do some work for Brett at Windrush, so Brett should be able to get you in touch with John.

You would need to explain how the loads work on a windsurfer as opposed to a moth, but they're both sailors, so they'll catch on quick.

I guess my previous post could have been viewed as a bit negative. I like the idea of being able to cruise along above the waves, but if you want to see a marked improvement in upwind performance and useability, chucking a ready made T foil into a standard placed fin box won't do it for you.

I'm in the other side of the world in Bermuda. So to me the moth concept is what I was originally thinking along with wand etc. But since then I've been thing on a different concept without the wand.

I think if a foiling windsurfer that allows the user to rake the sail back, power up and lock in like a normal board then that would be a winner. The "issue" (when I say issue I say it only from what I see visually in videos) is windfoils probably need to be relatively lifty as compared to moth and kite foils, thus more draggy. They seem to rely on lots of sheeting, unsheet and movement to keep the trim correct. The idea I am thinking however might be too stable and carving / steerage might be tough. But if it allowed using an 8m max in 7 - 11 knots of wind and could compete with moths would be awesome.

But thinking I could use the pile of divyncell and carbon I have to make the foil. Shaping the foam to the right foil shape would be interesting. I also need to find a board to sacrifice to mod. I figure a 60 - 70cm wide board would be a nice platform

There are loads of AC guys here now and the BAR team is going to be training at our local club, so might be chance to meet their technical guys. I met an engineer for Oracle who kites so he may know guys also.

I'll look up the fellows you mentioned.

Cheers

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Sputnik11 said..

Rough idea of price.

Around 1600/1800 $ in full carbon
The good thing is any decent deep tuttle board around 110/120L will do. No special fitting required.


I''m a pretty proficient recreational sailer, been at it for decades, how long do you think it would take to get going? You seem to be suggesting you got a buzz right away.

I sail very often but would only consider myself as a fast but not very technical sailor , so what I did was really listen and apply every advice he gave me. First attempt was a crash cause I sheeted in and leaned back, second attempt I was flying for ages, only stopped cause I was too far away from Benjamin and was wondering if I would manage to foil back !!!

Biggest trick to get going is front foot in the strap before planning.
The handling,hand and feet position is so different!!

I did all my foiling runs without the harness, and the sail was barely pulling. Once you get the hang of it you realise mast pressure and back foot position dictate board height.

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seanhogan said..

Sputnik11 said..

Rough idea of price.

Around 1600/1800 $ in full carbon
The good thing is any decent deep tuttle board around 110/120L will do. No special fitting required.

Really, last time I checked prices they were at least $1000 more. Where are these available? I have a Futura 121lt which is deep tuttle, so that part is sorted.


I''m a pretty proficient recreational sailer, been at it for decades, how long do you think it would take to get going? You seem to be suggesting you got a buzz right away.

I sail very often but would only consider myself as a fast but not very technical sailor , so what I did was really listen and apply every advice he gave me. First attempt was a crash cause I sheeted in and leaned back, second attempt I was flying for ages, only stopped cause I was too far away from Benjamin and was wondering if I would manage to foil back !!!

Biggest trick to get going is front foot in the strap before planning.
The handling,hand and feet position is so different!!

I did all my foiling runs without the harness, and the sail was barely pulling. Once you get the hang of it you realise mast pressure and back foot position dictate board height.

Appreciate the advice. Would you buy one without someone to teach you the basics? I'm guessing that's what I'd have to do here.

I'll check the price next time I see Benjamin.(you're probably right about the price)

Definitely wouldn't buy one without someone to teach me !

If Benjamin hadn't been there I probably would've ended up with a foil planted in my backside. And surely would never have "flied".

If there's no one to help you out, here's what I got (while I still remember everything):

In 10 knots get a 5.3 sail (I had 6.0 as I'm 95 kg)
Waist harness
Push your board upside down in the water till you have to swim

Uphaul and get going slightly downwind with your arms quite apart (like in a jibe)
As soon as you feel the board getting on a semi planing fit the front strap
That will make the board foil very soon, you'll be "dolphining" (going up and down)
Don't rush, let it go that way, then very slowly and cm by cm bring your back foot towards the rear straps but in the center of the board
All the time keep an upright position and do NOT lean back !
If you bring your foot back to fast you'll shoot in air big time !!(so never let go the boom !)
This will trim the board, once you're comfy you can fit the rear strap (I didn't !!)
If the board goes up just put pressure on the mast to bring it down slowly, do NOT open your sail as you'll loose pressure on the board and pop up !

That's as far as I can help as I only sailed for an hour or so and the only time I hooked in I faceplanted !

Hope it'll help !

that's Benjamin

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seanhogan said..


I'll check the price next time I see Benjamin.(you're probably right about the price)

Definitely wouldn't buy one without someone to teach me !

If Benjamin hadn't been there I probably would've ended up with a foil planted in my backside. And surely would never have "flied".

If there's no one to help you out, here's what I got (while I still remember everything):

In 10 knots get a 5.3 sail (I had 6.0 as I'm 95 kg)
Waist harness
Push your board upside down in the water till you have to swim

Uphaul and get going slightly downwind with your arms quite apart (like in a jibe)
As soon as you feel the board getting on a semi planing fit the front strap
That will make the board foil very soon, you'll be "dolphining" (going up and down)
Don't rush, let it go that way, then very slowly and cm by cm bring your back foot towards the rear straps but in the center of the board
All the time keep an upright position and do NOT lean back !
If you bring your foot back to fast you'll shoot in air big time !!(so never let go the boom !)
This will trim the board, once you're comfy you can fit the rear strap (I didn't !!)
If the board goes up just put pressure on the mast to bring it down slowly, do NOT open your sail as you'll loose pressure on the board and pop up !

That's as far as I can help as I only sailed for an hour or so and the only time I hooked in I faceplanted !

Hope it'll help !

that's Benjamin

Thanks for the info and the video. He makes it look very easy. Am prepared to work a bit to get there. Just the cost is an issue......

Appreciate the notes Sean.

Nice vid Sean!

latest video from new cal

Nice Sean!!