Foil Racing - Downwind Speeeeeeeed ! | Windsurfing Forums, page 1

Enable JavaScript to get the best experience.

Search Subscribed Topics Active Topics

Foil Racing - Downwind Speeeeeeeed !

Created by

berowne > 9 months ago, 3 Feb 2021

berowne

NSW

1555 posts

3 Feb 2021 11:11pm

They say 30 is the new 40

I do find it odd how slow this fancy new technology is... I mean we have {want} to spend 1000's of dollars on shiny black carbon and for what, slower speeds? Honestly it doesn't make sense. But damn its fun!

So how do you go fast on a foil?

My old Slingshot was comfortable at 18kts but above 19.9kts would only try and launch me skywards. Then I upgraded to carbon and it seemed to help. I feel much more comfortable above 20kts on an AFS or Starboard foil... the AFS felt slicker but the longer fuselage of the SB makes it feel more stable.

I'm aiming for 30kts this year,... a speed I used to get every week on my slalom kit!
Also a 20kt alpha would be nice. I have 20.0 according to Garmin but only 19.4 on my GW60. Close enough!

What I have noticed so far is although across the wind on a broad reach feels quick, my top speeds are all long downwind runs much like on slalom gear. Perhaps having time to line everything up also helps.

For those that don't see me that often... I'm 80kg 180cm and the wrong side of 40.
I ride an FMX Hyperion board that I have the utmost respect for, not that you can tell by looking at it!
I switched to Starboard foils and have 115+ set with 900 and 800 wings.
I just got a 105+ Fuselage with 550 front wing and 225 'thin' rear. I have only had 1 go on this set and another on the 800 which felt good! But still a little draggy.

My top tips for speed so far...

Wear your helmet (the onetime I didn't, hit the ground - catapulted - and landed on the mast).

Get comfortable Speed is dangerous so don't do it if it doesn't feel right

Flat water! You might be above the chop, but waves go as deep down as they do up

Read the water state so you know when to ride high or low

Accelerate - but do it slowly! I find it difficult to adjust to changing speed quickly

Don't hit the water (well just a rail if you can) because you slow down SO MUCH!

Keep the windward rail down! Unlike slalom, on a reach do NOT turn to leeward to control the gust like you might on a deep downwind run... the air can get under and lift you! Tried that twice before I knew what was happening!

Hook in and power through the mast

On SB foils I've only really tried -2 degree rear wing angle. Might need more?

I'm typically using 9.0 or 8.0 Phantoms foiling sails in lighter winds or slalom 7.0 if it is stronger. The lower loose leach actually feels pretty good across the wind. Haven't tried crazy winds and smaller sails yet (my slalom gear needs to get wet sometimes)

Back foot in. Well ideally but sometimes I'm just not that brave. GPS readout says it is quicker... but the
'Old' 2019 FMX rear straps are 91cm apart and for downwind I might need them about 80. Anyone got foot strap inserts I can epoxy into my board? Maybe I should just take them off like Nic!

Take a GoPro or it never happened!

I appreciate any and all suggestions.

WhiteofHeart

798 posts

3 Feb 2021 8:46pm

My #1 tip, increase foil rake!! Having the nose up more is paramount to comfort at speed.

At higher speeds your foil angle will naturally have to flatten off to maintain stable lift. This means that at 30 or even 30+ knots the angle of your board to the water will be very different to flying at 20 knots. To prevent your board from flying nose down, an increase in rake angle is very very important, I'd say about 1-1.5 degrees more than for up/down racing.

Having too little rake for a speedrun makes it soo much more dangerous, a touchdown will immediately lead to a catapult! With a little more rake you can keep flying more easily, and if you dial it in perfectly even the cost in terms of speed is limited when you accidentally touch the water!

For the rest, hook in, weight out to load the harness/mastfoot, feet in the straps and be powered up, but not overpowered!!! My best speeds (slightly over 30 knots) were with 105L and 4.9 wave in 18-20 knots, which is a very comfortable upper windrange for that kit for me.

I ride with a loose leech for speedruns (like setting the sail to high wind wave setting), but with relatively thight outhaul to keep the preassure from moving in the gusts. Maybe a little less thight outhaul would be faster, but too me the drawbacks in terms of control are too large, and at 30 knots, control is what I need.

I dont do speedruns on the racing kit anymore, the up/down wings are not that fast. My fastest with racing kit was 52-53 on Lokefoil race M (90cm wide, 778cm2 surface area) with 9.0 in 13-18 knots. The newest PWA wings are probably the fastest thats out there now, but I dont have the $$$, so will just make do with my freeride kit!

Paducah

2792 posts

3 Feb 2021 9:05pm

iirc Julien Bernard said the other day that he likes a 6m2 sail for the days he's pushing the needle. It looks like all the top guys are hitting low to mid 30s. Going faster will require wings in the 350cm2 range. I say all this from what I've read. On the water, I'm slow as molasses.

+1 on the coconut lid.

at 57:30

Swindy

456 posts

3 Feb 2021 9:25pm

Good topic, I think there are plenty of us wanting to know how to get more speed. Big kahunas is probably one of the main ingredients. Fear of pain and injury are probably the biggest barrier, for me at 55 as I don't heal so quickly these days.
My alphas are coming along well with a 21.4 last month and there is room for improvement that I can see. Have managed a 20 with my supercruiser with the 1300 wing fitted and regularly get 19s on it.
Where I am struggling is getting over 25kn on a regular basis and just under 27 is my best 2s with the 550 wing.
A couple of tips I have been given by a fast foiler is plenty of downhaul, more than windsurfing so the nose doesn't get pushed down in the gusts and to set the foil up neutral on a reach so you can sail it like a windsurfer and not have to lean forward for mast base and front foot pressure. This would be no good for upwind downwind racing but good for slalom.
Still working on rear wing angles to achieve the perfect set up but only use the faster gear a couple of times a month. I enjoy relaxing on the cruiser too much rather than scaring the crap out of myself.

Will also try more rake, thanks WOH.

Sandman1221

2776 posts

3 Feb 2021 10:50pm

I use minimal downhaul, so no crease in upper 1/3 of sail, but more outhaul so gusts do not move the pressure center on the sail, and AFS Wind 95 foil with F700 wing and no stab. shims, with 0.0 degree foil rake. Foil is balanced so front/rear foot pressure is equal. A very experienced windsurfer was barely able to catch me on the F700 wing, BUT I did not realize 8" of a panel on my sail had pulled out at the bottom by the luff sleeve letting wind out, so would have been going faster with an intact sail.

AFS has a new foil with a longer 94.5 cm fuselage, but still solid carbon. Someday may get the F700S wing for more speed, but may need a smaller sail/boom/mast and not sure if I want to go any faster. They also have a new series of slalom wings with a small one for higher speeds.

segler

1658 posts

4 Feb 2021 1:05am

Since the foil wings are airfoil Bernoulli lifting surfaces, the higher the speed the more the lift. Not only the front wing going up, but the stab going down. This makes for difficulty keeping the pitch under control in gusty winds.

Racing gear mitigates this with really long fuselages and stab shim angles. You can reduce the stab down angle to the point where it maintains nearly neutral down force at a great variety of speeds. This then requires the rider to do all the lifting with weight shifts. I know two pro racers who actually prefer this. They want all pitch to default to down, not up, until they weight their back foot.

I have tried this with a Moses Race, reducing the stab down angle by just 0.5 deg. The effect is HUGE. I am not a racer, but, boy, that foil is sweet butter at any speed. Friends of mine in Seattle like the -2.0 deg stab on their SB 115+ and 115++ for this same reason.

"Don't lift until I tell you to." 30 kts is easy, they say. I wouldn't know; my eyes get too big at 23 kts.

Tinlyds

NSW

216 posts

4 Feb 2021 6:42am

Easy, buy a NP Evo ??

tonyk

QLD

609 posts

4 Feb 2021 8:24am

Great thread, we don't have many good one's here

I don't know yet what is working for me, I know I catapult 5plus times a day when I go into red zone or try to nail 20kt alpha air duck gybe (current record on duckie for me 19.4 on F4race 1m front wing)

Already I have learnt plenty on this thread

Although it's early days for the thread a pattern of what works for one won't work for another. This happens a lot in sport and life in general

Keep the ideas coming and we can all go faster

jusavina

QLD

1494 posts

4 Feb 2021 12:37pm

waterbouy101

NSW

42 posts

4 Feb 2021 4:05pm

Select to expand quote

berowne said..
They say 30 is the new 40

I do find it odd how slow this fancy new technology is... I mean we have {want} to spend 1000's of dollars on shiny black carbon and for what, slower speeds? Honestly it doesn't make sense. But damn its fun!

So how do you go fast on a foil?

My old Slingshot was comfortable at 18kts but above 19.9kts would only try and launch me skywards. Then I upgraded to carbon and it seemed to help. I feel much more comfortable above 20kts on an AFS or Starboard foil... the AFS felt slicker but the longer fuselage of the SB makes it feel more stable.

I'm aiming for 30kts this year,... a speed I used to get every week on my slalom kit!
Also a 20kt alpha would be nice. I have 20.0 according to Garmin but only 19.4 on my GW60. Close enough!

What I have noticed so far is although across the wind on a broad reach feels quick, my top speeds are all long downwind runs much like on slalom gear. Perhaps having time to line everything up also helps.

For those that don't see me that often... I'm 80kg 180cm and the wrong side of 40.
I ride an FMX Hyperion board that I have the utmost respect for, not that you can tell by looking at it!
I switched to Starboard foils and have 115+ set with 900 and 800 wings.
I just got a 105+ Fuselage with 550 front wing and 225 'thin' rear. I have only had 1 go on this set and another on the 800 which felt good! But still a little draggy.

My top tips for speed so far...

Wear your helmet (the onetime I didn't, hit the ground - catapulted - and landed on the mast).

Get comfortable Speed is dangerous so don't do it if it doesn't feel right

Flat water! You might be above the chop, but waves go as deep down as they do up

Read the water state so you know when to ride high or low

Accelerate - but do it slowly! I find it difficult to adjust to changing speed quickly

Don't hit the water (well just a rail if you can) because you slow down SO MUCH!

Hook in and power through the mast

On SB foils I've only really tried -2 degree rear wing angle. Might need more?

Take a GoPro or it never happened!

I appreciate any and all suggestions.

My current top speed Is 30.56kn using SB 800 front wing/ -2 255 rear on the old 95 fuse and the 85cm mast on a SB foil 150 board. I have tried lots of combos to get to this speed! I have just got hold of the new 650 front and -2 200 thin tail (only one sail in light wind so far)
one thing I have found so far to increase speed, you need to work on the finish of the foils and cleaning up the connection between all the parts, hours and hours of wet rubbing to a 3000 finish!

all my top speed runs have been in breeze above 25kn and using a Severne 5.0m foil glide (btw love that sail! Its a weapon !)

tonyk

QLD

609 posts

6 Feb 2021 12:07pm

I will state the obvious here and it's no different to fin
Location and Timing are at the top of the list
If you don't get those right regardless of setup you won't be doing PB's
When the L&T align it will come with much less effort and risk to you and the gear

jusavina

QLD

1494 posts

6 Feb 2021 7:07pm

Select to expand quote

tonyk said..
I will state the obvious here and it's no different to fin
Location and Timing are at the top of the list
If you don't get those right regardless of setup you won't be doing PB's
When the L&T align it will come with much less effort and risk to you and the gear

The Train and Timing?

tonyk

QLD

609 posts

6 Feb 2021 7:18pm

Select to expand quote

jusavina said..

The Train and Timing?

Yeah baby low tide and ride high

Boston!

NSW

254 posts

6 Feb 2021 9:09pm

Select to expand quote

waterbouy101 said..

Wear your helmet (the onetime I didn't, hit the ground - catapulted - and landed on the mast).

Get comfortable Speed is dangerous so don't do it if it doesn't feel right

Flat water! You might be above the chop, but waves go as deep down as they do up

Read the water state so you know when to ride high or low

Accelerate - but do it slowly! I find it difficult to adjust to changing speed quickly

Don't hit the water (well just a rail if you can) because you slow down SO MUCH!

Hook in and power through the mast

On SB foils I've only really tried -2 degree rear wing angle. Might need more?

Take a GoPro or it never happened!

I appreciate any and all suggestions.

Geez man above 25kts! Legend! Where do you sail?

waterbouy101

NSW

42 posts

7 Feb 2021 3:18pm

Select to expand quote

Boston! said..

waterbouy101 said..

Wear your helmet (the onetime I didn't, hit the ground - catapulted - and landed on the mast).

Get comfortable Speed is dangerous so don't do it if it doesn't feel right

Flat water! You might be above the chop, but waves go as deep down as they do up

Read the water state so you know when to ride high or low

Accelerate - but do it slowly! I find it difficult to adjust to changing speed quickly

Don't hit the water (well just a rail if you can) because you slow down SO MUCH!

Hook in and power through the mast

On SB foils I've only really tried -2 degree rear wing angle. Might need more?

Take a GoPro or it never happened!

I appreciate any and all suggestions.

Geez man above 25kts! Legend! Where do you sail?

Northern Sydney harbour- Manly

Daithidmg

53 posts

9 Feb 2021 2:29am

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..
I use minimal downhaul, so no crease in upper 1/3 of sail, but more outhaul so gusts do not move the pressure center on the sail, and AFS Wind 95 foil with F700 wing and no stab. shims, with 0.0 degree foil rake. Foil is balanced so front/rear foot pressure is equal. A very experienced windsurfer was barely able to catch me on the F700 wing, BUT I did not realize 8" of a panel on my sail had pulled out at the bottom by the luff sleeve letting wind out, so would have been going faster with an intact sail.

AFS has a new foil with a longer 94.5 cm fuselage, but still solid carbon. Someday may get the F700S wing for more speed, but may need a smaller sail/boom/mast and not sure if I want to go any faster. They also have a new series of slalom wings with a small one for higher speeds.

Yup, also use the Wind 95 but with the 700s (which I'm pretty sure is exactly the same as their new smallest S wing)and the S Stabiliser, no shims on a JP Hydrofoil 135 and 6.2 V8.

Have the sail set with around average downhaul for the wind strength with little to no outhaul for power off the wind.

27.4knt peak with a good few high 26knt 10s, the smaller back wing is more stable and nice and slippery at speed. 30+knts is definitely there with this setup in stable wind conditions when I get a bit braver and when the water gets a bit warmer than 6deg!

Do like the look of the new mast with the longer fuselage, can only make it easier to get even faster again, ???????????

berowne

NSW

1555 posts

11 Feb 2021 3:57pm

Good Video of Facebook.

fb.watch/3AsE77MC6Y/

DarrylG

506 posts

11 Feb 2021 1:17pm

Select to expand quote

berowne said..
Good Video of Facebook.

fb.watch/3AsE77MC6Y/

And here's another one ;)
www.facebook.com/groups/187817192640290/permalink/434045091350831/

jusavina

QLD

1494 posts

11 Feb 2021 4:01pm

Select to expand quote

DarrylG said..

berowne said..
Good Video of Facebook.

fb.watch/3AsE77MC6Y/

And here's another one ;)
www.facebook.com/groups/187817192640290/permalink/434045091350831/

I thought you were going upwind there.

Paducah

2792 posts

11 Feb 2021 9:22pm

Select to expand quote

DarrylG said..

berowne said..
Good Video of Facebook.

fb.watch/3AsE77MC6Y/

And here's another one ;)
www.facebook.com/groups/187817192640290/permalink/434045091350831/

Shame this is buried in the middle of a thread - impressive.

berowne

NSW

1555 posts

12 Feb 2021 10:32am

Interesting chart of recommended sail sizes.

www.facebook.com/Phantomwindsurfing/photos/a.416408895771331/910839729661576/?type=3

berowne

NSW

1555 posts

12 Feb 2021 7:07pm

What do fast people think about board width and rear strap position?
On a reach/downwind my 91cm FMX foot straps feel to far out, especially with my rear foot hanging over the rail!
So obviously I rarely use them... but it does feel faster if I do.

I also tried an older 75cm slalom board once, with a relatively narrow tail and it felt too narrow.
It seems a lot of newer slalom boards have squarer outlines, especially the 85cm models, are these suitable cross overs.

Specifically, if you use the rear straps, how far apart are they?

Thanks!

berowne

NSW

1555 posts

13 Feb 2021 9:58am

Nicolas Goyard Windsurfing testing the new R430 front wing, he claimed 35,16kts (vmax 2sec) with the Rf 7.0 and 36,02kts with the Rf 6.0 !!
www.facebook.com/groups/1377152212346239/permalink/3879798958748206/

tonyk

QLD

609 posts

3 Apr 2021 9:22pm

looking at this video these guys like to stay high and put it all on the line

www.phantom-windsurfing.com/?fbclid=IwAR11AvrcBFUrKZqdNNlIaRvK8QimcNn-94gznYujNZwGULfULyD7YHzh8eI

Sailrepair

62 posts

4 Apr 2021 2:21am

I notice some foil brands are pushing shorter masts for faster foiling.

I have been trying the tips given in that AFS video. I have lowered my boom 7cm and using a bit longer harness lines and I am going a few knots faster as a result.

fjdoug

ACT

548 posts

4 Apr 2021 8:04am

Select to expand quote

Sailrepair said..
I notice some foil brands are pushing shorter masts for faster foiling.

I have been trying the tips given in that AFS video. I have lowered my boom 7cm and using a bit longer harness lines and I am going a few knots faster as a result.

you had me confused there for a bit ; your login name is very similar to Jespers, one of this sites long time sponsors.

tonyk

QLD

609 posts

4 Apr 2021 8:14am

Select to expand quote

Wow finding a extra 2kts is impressive, what is your current top 5 x 10sec average

Sailrepair

62 posts

4 Apr 2021 6:16am

Select to expand quote

fjdoug said..

you had me confused there for a bit ; your login name is very similar to Jespers, one of this sites long time sponsors.

Sorry about that, I didn't realise when I registered. It is the name of my windsurf shop in the UK

Sailrepair

62 posts

4 Apr 2021 6:29am

Select to expand quote

tonyk said..

Wow finding a extra 2kts is impressive, what is your current top 5 x 10sec average

An extra 2kts is not so impressive when you realise I was going from "very slow" to "slow". I used to have to try very hard to break 20 kts now I am at about 22.5 kts. I do go faster but I often don't have my GPS on.

I supply some of the UK olympic team with their kit so I asked them about boom height. They said most of the squad have their boom in the bottom 1/3 of the severne cutout. I was near the top. Admittedly I am 3" taller than the person I asked.

In truth I am not that worried about ultimate top speed, I am more interested in efficiency. While a lot of the speed tips such as moving your straps forward, mast base etc all make sense in stopping the foil over foiling the trouble where I sail is that I might have 10 minutes over powered followed by 5 minutes of nearly no wind so I don't really want to set my board up so it will only work when fully powered up. I suppose it may be a unrealistic holly grail of both early flight and good top speed but that is what I am aiming for.

tonyk

QLD

609 posts

4 Apr 2021 8:36am

Select to expand quote

Sailrepair said..

tonyk said..

Wow finding a extra 2kts is impressive, what is your current top 5 x 10sec average

Thanks for the info, 22 is not slow at all, most of us are happy to reach that speed, I will give the lower boom a go and see if it helps my top end
Cheers TK

End of posts

Please Register, or first...

Topics Reply