Thank you. I didn't get to see that jibe demo when he was here.

I do wish Andy would do some "ride-along" style videos, because his on the water technique really looks different than his dryland demos. I'm sure other guys who've worked with him (Aeron, Sandman and others I think...) will chime in, but, for instance;

His on the water style is incredibly relaxed - none of this hunched shoulder stuff you see in these videos (although the hunch does go some way to explaining his absurdly overdeveloped Trapezii!)
I was on the water with Naish once back in the mid-80's, and in about 5kt he had his longboard planing upwind without ever pumping the sail. Andy also has that real waterman's gift of subtly ooching his way into speed with really accurate footwork, which you don't get much sense of in the dryland videos. It's the problem I have with Britt's pumping video too.
Andy's pumping technique, if this is an accurate reflection of it, has definitely changed in the last year. When I last worked with him he really wanted us swinging pretty far downwind to pump, with a definite flick inward at the end of the backward stroke, rather than the current version which is much more upwind-oriented and has a hard sheet-in at the end of the forward throw. It makes sense, it's just not what I remember.

One thing he demonstrates that I do remember - at around 12:00 of the gybe demo - is kind of stalling the board up mid-gybe so that he can flip the sail and so that he has a way to accelerate out of the gybe. He definitely does that - his board really rises mid-gybe which I don't remember his talking about in person although I do remember seeing it.

Select to expand quote

Awalkspoiled said..
I do wish Andy would do some "ride-along" style videos, because his on the water technique really looks different than his dryland demos. I'm sure other guys who've worked with him (Aeron, Sandman and others I think...) will chime in, but, for instance;

His on the water style is incredibly relaxed - none of this hunched shoulder stuff you see in these videos (although the hunch does go some way to explaining his absurdly overdeveloped Trapezii!)
I was on the water with Naish once back in the mid-80's, and in about 5kt he had his longboard planing upwind without ever pumping the sail. Andy also has that real waterman's gift of subtly ooching his way into speed with really accurate footwork, which you don't get much sense of in the dryland videos. It's the problem I have with Britt's pumping video too.
Andy's pumping technique, if this is an accurate reflection of it, has definitely changed in the last year. When I last worked with him he really wanted us swinging pretty far downwind to pump, with a definite flick inward at the end of the backward stroke, rather than the current version which is much more upwind-oriented and has a hard sheet-in at the end of the forward throw. It makes sense, it's just not what I remember.

One thing he demonstrates that I do remember - at around 12:00 of the gybe demo - is kind of stalling the board up mid-gybe so that he can flip the sail and so that he has a way to accelerate out of the gybe. He definitely does that - his board really rises mid-gybe which I don't remember his talking about in person although I do remember seeing it.

Good points as always, I think he exaggerates the moves on land quite a bit for demonstration purposes so it's more visible, and relaxes a lot more on the water.

He did really exaggerate a fin jibe to me, on my board however, while I was watching on the water. It started the gears turning in my head. He helped me get upwind on my small wave boards but I still need more practice. I need more TOW in higher wind to really get that technique down. Foiling is so much easier in that regard.

Also, he was telling me about the difference in jibe technique and underhand vs. overhand grabbing of the new front hand, but it didn't make sense to me WHY at all. The demo above shows a lot of it but I still don't think it's clicking yet.

Overall, a big defect that I had in my jibes that nobody pointed out to me, unfortunately, was that I wasn't carving deep enough before trying to flip the rig. My completed foil jibes had a very simple metric to me, which was try to keep the board carving and look ahead and just try to let the sail do its thing. All my jibes otherwise, when any instructor watched, told me I was going too slow to the entry. What was really happening though was I was starting to slow down by opening the rig and braking the whole process, with a crappy carve. Whatever was between my ears kept me from just trying to carve as hard as possible downwind. His one-handed jibe training thing where you just crash at the end, to see what happens, probably would've helped, but there just haven't been enough high wind days for me to try that on flat water.

Andy took my kit out and did one foiling gybe after another, on flattish water 10-12 knots, he kept the board level through the gybe and was just off the water, maybe 1 foot max. Britt was doing it the same way too.

I think these videos are to give someone with no clue some process to make an attempt. For those with experience its about picking up some nuggets that you have not considered or have forgotten about.

His instructional process gradually evolves, so I consider these sorts of videos as editions

Like areo said the shoulder shrugging might be more to emphasize the movement he is demonstrating

On the water he was hounding me on my posture all week "look up Roland, the board isn't going anywhere" it is a real emphasis "look good while falling" paraphrasing

Agree with thedoor, think that is the most important aspect of getting a lesson, having Andy watch you and give tips on what you are doing wrong (moving my feet around on deck going through gybe) and what to do next to improve. Oh, and having Andy adjust my rig, big difference there too. And foiling gybes are not without danger, especially at higher speed, and having someone there watching me definitely helped me be more aggressive with my speed both heading upwind and through the gybes.

Select to expand quote

Awalkspoiled said..
Andy's pumping technique, if this is an accurate reflection of it, has definitely changed in the last year.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..
His instructional process gradually evolves, so I consider these sorts of videos as editions

Yes, the way Andy constantly works on improving his lectures is one of the reasons he is a great teacher. It reflects how his techniques and his understanding improves over time, but even more so what he sees in the countless lessons that he gives. He has seen hundreds of examples of what works well for learners, and what works less well, and changes his teaching accordingly. Sometimes, these changes can be quite radical, like for the forward loop lesson.

The jibe lesson has many of the elements that he taught a couple of years ago, but I also picked up a few new things. Only bummer is that in most of my windfoil sessions now, I'm on a cambered sail going significantly faster than the wind, so the sail-first jibe he teaches just does not work. But maybe I can get him to show me a few jibes on my gear when he comes to Cape Cod this weekend . Light winds mean that he'll have to show how to flip the sail when getting backwinded going downwind.

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

Awalkspoiled said..
Andy's pumping technique, if this is an accurate reflection of it, has definitely changed in the last year.

thedoor said..
His instructional process gradually evolves, so I consider these sorts of videos as editions

Yes, the way Andy constantly works on improving his lectures is one of the reasons he is a great teacher. It reflects how his techniques and his understanding improves over time, but even more so what he sees in the countless lessons that he gives. He has seen hundreds of examples of what works well for learners, and what works less well, and changes his teaching accordingly. Sometimes, these changes can be quite radical, like for the forward loop lesson.

The jibe lesson has many of the elements that he taught a couple of years ago, but I also picked up a few new things. Only bummer is that in most of my windfoil sessions now, I'm on a cambered sail going significantly faster than the wind, so the sail-first jibe he teaches just does not work. But maybe I can get him to show me a few jibes on my gear when he comes to Cape Cod this weekend . Light winds mean that he'll have to show how to flip the sail when getting backwinded going downwind.

I have the same problem - most of my foiling is done on 7.0 or 8.5 and the strap gybe he teaches sometimes works on the 7 but never on the 8.5. If I drive my weight forward into the boom to overcome the backwinding the board comes off the foil. To add to the misery I'm on a 91cm board so I tend to need to have my feet really far apart to get the board to carve, which means that whenever I lift one foot the trim goes to hell. Andy talks in the video about trying to get his feet closer together when maneuvering and that sounds like something I should try. I've also never heard anyone (including Andy) point out that you need to rake the sail back to allow you to move your back foot forward into the position to carve the board.

Sometimes this sequence works for me in typical 10kt wind, when I'm going 15 or more - oversheet as in a finned gybe, but really briefly. Then push a little with the back hand but PULL hard with the mast hand and let the sail flip at roughly dead downwind or just before. The hard part is to keep committed to the inside rail when there's nothing to counterbalance against, and at this point I usually fall to the inside. If I don't fall, though, straight into the new front strap while still clew first with the mast actually behind my body (I'm now on the new broad reach, with luck), then pull the mast forward again and let the sail flip as it powers up (Andy talks about this move at around 10:43 except he calls it pushing the mast hand). It feels a lot like a heli-tack.

When it works, I think it works because that pull with the mast hand directly toward the real wind slows the mast down enough that while the board is still going faster than the wind, the sail isn't, so there's very briefly not much power in the sail either way. Andy talks about something similar in the carve gybe video, when he points out that pulling with the front hand is the same as pushing with the back hand, in terms of sheet angle.

I know it's a lot easier than I'm making it but at this point I'm up to maybe one out of three gybes on an 8.5, and if the wind ever picks up again in Florida I'm optimistic about improving on that while simplifying the process.

Select to expand quote

Awalkspoiled said..

boardsurfr said..

Awalkspoiled said..
Andy's pumping technique, if this is an accurate reflection of it, has definitely changed in the last year.

thedoor said..
His instructional process gradually evolves, so I consider these sorts of videos as editions

Yes, the way Andy constantly works on improving his lectures is one of the reasons he is a great teacher. It reflects how his techniques and his understanding improves over time, but even more so what he sees in the countless lessons that he gives. He has seen hundreds of examples of what works well for learners, and what works less well, and changes his teaching accordingly. Sometimes, these changes can be quite radical, like for the forward loop lesson.

The jibe lesson has many of the elements that he taught a couple of years ago, but I also picked up a few new things. Only bummer is that in most of my windfoil sessions now, I'm on a cambered sail going significantly faster than the wind, so the sail-first jibe he teaches just does not work. But maybe I can get him to show me a few jibes on my gear when he comes to Cape Cod this weekend . Light winds mean that he'll have to show how to flip the sail when getting backwinded going downwind.

I have the same problem - most of my foiling is done on 7.0 or 8.5 and the strap gybe he teaches sometimes works on the 7 but never on the 8.5. If I drive my weight forward into the boom to overcome the backwinding the board comes off the foil. To add to the misery I'm on a 91cm board so I tend to need to have my feet really far apart to get the board to carve, which means that whenever I lift one foot the trim goes to hell. Andy talks in the video about trying to get his feet closer together when maneuvering and that sounds like something I should try. I've also never heard anyone (including Andy) point out that you need to rake the sail back to allow you to move your back foot forward into the position to carve the board.

Sometimes this sequence works for me in typical 10kt wind, when I'm going 15 or more - oversheet as in a finned gybe, but really briefly. Then push a little with the back hand but PULL hard with the mast hand and let the sail flip at roughly dead downwind or just before. The hard part is to keep committed to the inside rail when there's nothing to counterbalance against, and at this point I usually fall to the inside. If I don't fall, though, straight into the new front strap while still clew first with the mast actually behind my body (I'm now on the new broad reach, with luck), then pull the mast forward again and let the sail flip as it powers up (Andy talks about this move at around 10:43 except he calls it pushing the mast hand). It feels a lot like a heli-tack.

When it works, I think it works because that pull with the mast hand directly toward the real wind slows the mast down enough that while the board is still going faster than the wind, the sail isn't, so there's very briefly not much power in the sail either way. Andy talks about something similar in the carve gybe video, when he points out that pulling with the front hand is the same as pushing with the back hand, in terms of sheet angle.

I know it's a lot easier than I'm making it but at this point I'm up to maybe one out of three gybes on an 8.5, and if the wind ever picks up again in Florida I'm optimistic about improving on that while simplifying the process.

Yes for me he said that a strap jibe is for small gear, step for larger race gear. And an overhand grab with the new front on small gear and underhand grab with the new front on large gear.

The jibes I've gotten were on a 5.6 and 6.3 with wind strong enough that even in the dead downwind phase there was still apparent wind behind me which helped it flip and me stay in the old front strap, just a magical spin since I haven't done that on a fin yet either. I've gotten close to a step jibe with the 6.3 but it feels a little more difficult.
With the unrelenting afternoon storms I haven't been able to do much on big gear .

I think a foiling gybe is very specific to an individual, their equipment, and the conditions. Andy then just points out what changes you need to make to do the gybe, with your equipment, and the conditions at that time. Trying to take a video (on land or water) and apply to yourself and your equipment is very difficult and really not advisable IMO. I think beginners and intermediates can really benefit (i.e., learn to do a foiling gybe) from having expert eyes watching them on the water and getting feedback and tips. A step down would be to have someone recording you on the water.

I think Andy does make videos of people in the 5 day camp, If I do another lesson with him, will ask him to also take a video of me. But when doing a foiling gybe, it is all about feeling the kit, and not visual feedback from my eyes. When I mentioned that to Andy, he said he had taught a blind person to do a windsurfing gybe, visual feedback can be a hinderance.

I will add that I am pretty good with sail flip first carve gybe as that is what I was used to from finning, but when I switch to my bigger "freerace" gear it isn't as good. I am kind of paralysed between trying to do the carve gybe on big gear and learning the step first race gybe.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..
I will add that I am pretty good with sail flip first carve gybe as that is what I was used to from finning, but when I switch to my bigger "freerace" gear it isn't as good. I am kind of paralysed between trying to do the carve gybe on big gear and learning the step first race gybe.

Making a series of new neuron connections is not easy, and probably gets harder as we get older. But if I need to memorize something that is written for a test/exam, I take lecithin powder, 1 tbs per day, lots of lipids in it that are needed to build new neuron connections.

I had a light bulb moment with Andy's comment about moving the mast aft when moving the back foot. I am looking forward to trying that when the wind returns.
One thing that has really helped my gybes, turns and pitch control was when I realized that "the board follows the masthead". Or point the masthead where you want to go. Because the rig weight has some much leverage over the foil it has a massive effect on turning. That was the key I needed to keep carving all the way through the gybe.

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..
I had a light bulb moment with Andy's comment about moving the mast aft when moving the back foot. I am looking forward to trying that when the wind returns.
One thing that has really helped my gybes, turns and pitch control was when I realized that "the board follows the masthead". Or point the masthead where you want to go. Because the rig weight has some much leverage over the foil it has a massive effect on turning. That was the key I needed to keep carving all the way through the gybe.

Andy told me to look where I wanted to go, and mast head did follow me when I did that.
Problem initially for me though was when he shouted "flip" I would automatically look at him as I flipped the sail, and that was over my reward shoulder! The first gybe I made was when he did not yell flip, go figure, but I heard him say flip at the right time in my head!

For sure Sandman, looking where you want to go is an absolute must for foiling. But it won't guarantee the rig goes where it needs to. It is a pretty common error toward the end of a gybe to be looking to the inside of the turn but have the CG of the rig on the outside. It's funny I just noticed in my profile picture I am making that mistake, but it's not as important on the land board. This is at the very end of a swift gybe and look where the rig is. The sail flip (often late), centrifugal force and the wind force all move the rig to the outside at the end of a gybe and this PARKS the turn when foiling. Completing the second half of the turn on a foil gybe was a struggle of mine until I was consciously using the rig weight to finish the turn.
Andy's tips are really clever using this same concept to smooth out any footwork.

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..
For sure Sandman, looking where you want to go is an absolute must for foiling. But it won't guarantee the rig goes where it needs to. It is a pretty common error toward the end of a gybe to be looking to the inside of the turn but have the CG of the rig on the outside. It's funny I just noticed in my profile picture I am making that mistake, but it's not as important on the land board. This is at the very end of a swift gybe and look where the rig is. The sail flip (often late), centrifugal force and the wind force all move the rig to the outside at the end of a gybe and this PARKS the turn when foiling. Completing the second half of the turn on a foil gybe was a struggle of mine until I was consciously using the rig weight to turn.
Andy's tips are really clever using this same concept to smooth out any footwork.

thanks utc-4, will try to be more aware of the rig/boom next time I get out, by feel versus looking.

Watched the videos, what I got was flipping in a gust, I usually wait until after a gust, and like utc-4 mentioned using boom and mast to control board direction and height. Just need some decent wind.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..
Watched the videos, what I got was flipping in a gust, I usually wait until after a gust, and like utc-4 mentioned using boom and mast to control board direction and height. Just need some decent wind.

There was also the tip of pulling with the front hand (ie the mast) instead of pushing the clew, which I hadn't thought of

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..
I had a light bulb moment with Andy's comment about moving the mast aft when moving the back foot. I am looking forward to trying that when the wind returns.
One thing that has really helped my gybes, turns and pitch control was when I realized that "the board follows the masthead". Or point the masthead where you want to go. Because the rig weight has some much leverage over the foil it has a massive effect on turning. That was the key I needed to keep carving all the way through the gybe.

That doesn't work for me using a SB GTR+ foil. Doing a step first gybe, I commence the rig transition by first sweeping the mast to the outside of the turn ( about the same time as my step), followed by dragging the mast back in front of me back to the normal position. It's the only way I can get the rig to flip with my board speed being a fair bit higher than wind speed. My foil gybes are still fairly ordinary, but I wasn't able to improve them until I realised I'd stopped doing this when moving from fin to foil gybes. The initial outwards sweep with the rig doesn't upset my carve, that's what I use my feet for.

Select to expand quote

Stretchy said..

utcminusfour said..
I had a light bulb moment with Andy's comment about moving the mast aft when moving the back foot. I am looking forward to trying that when the wind returns.
One thing that has really helped my gybes, turns and pitch control was when I realized that "the board follows the masthead". Or point the masthead where you want to go. Because the rig weight has some much leverage over the foil it has a massive effect on turning. That was the key I needed to keep carving all the way through the gybe.

That doesn't work for me using a SB GTR+ foil. Doing a step first gybe, I commence the rig transition by first sweeping the mast to the outside of the turn ( about the same time as my step), followed by dragging the mast back in front of me back to the normal position. It's the only way I can get the rig to flip with my board speed being a fair bit higher than wind speed. My foil gybes are still fairly ordinary, but I wasn't able to improve them until I realised I'd stopped doing this when moving from fin to foil gybes. The initial outwards sweep with the rig doesn't upset my carve, that's what I use my feet for.

Yep - I also sweep the mast outside. Feels like an old-school longboard flare gybe in terms of sail position. The difference is that in the non-planing flare gybe I'm using the rig to send weight to the windward (outside)rail along with my feet weighting that rail, whereas as you point out in the foil gybe the feet have to keep the inside rail weighted.

I think this is one reason those of us who've worked with Andy are so eager to see him working a big sail in light wind. His normal technique really stresses keeping the mast angled to the inside of the turn all the way around so that the feet and mast are both working the inside (he likes duck-gybing on foil for this very reason). So we wonder whether he'd change that with big sails when board speed is so much higher than windspeed. The PWA guys certainly seem to - they lean really hard into the boom at the moment of greatest backwind pressure but they don't hang out there - it just transitions into an outward sweep followed by the flip. When I do that I come off the foil - probably because I'm going so much slower than they!

Select to expand quote

Stretchy said..
Doing a step first gybe, I commence the rig transition by first sweeping the mast to the outside of the turn ( about the same time as my step), followed by dragging the mast back in front of me back to the normal position.

Absolutely agree. The way that I try to explain this is that the harness lines have to pass from one shoulder to the other. With a big sail, it's a big sweep like you say. And, begin by looking at your exit through the middle of the panel of the sail. As the sail sweeps, you still look at the same spot even with the sail moving away from it. This also works with a hard carved jibe with a smaller sail, too, which is a lot of fun.

Oh, and don't get entranced by the carve. It's easy to be fascinated the whole thing in light air and forget to flip until you start to get backwinded off the board.

Select to expand quote

Awalkspoiled said.. The PWA guys certainly seem to - they lean really hard into the boom at the moment of greatest backwind pressure but they don't hang out there - it just transitions into an outward sweep followed by the flip.

Good point. After the initial carve, the foil racers are very fluid in the jibe, moving feet and sail while keeping the carve. I tend to get stuck downwind when I get backwinded, probably because I don't step far enough to the leeward rail. It's not easy to get used to the big step(s) when placing the carving foot, and then small but precise steps when switching the feet and flipping the sail.

Good session yesterday on bigger sail (6.5) and racier foil sab w800 and a wide free ride board.

Seems like I can gybe either way: stepping first or stepping last, but definitely have a preference for the stepping last gybe, probably cause that is what I am most used too. Also wondering if the inboard front straps make it easier to do the step last gybe? Or maybe it not being a full race sail means I can get away with the step last gybe?

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..
Good session yesterday on bigger sail (6.5) and racier foil sab w800 and a wide free ride board.

Seems like I can gybe either way: stepping first or stepping last, but definitely have a preference for the stepping last gybe, probably cause that is what I am most used too. Also wondering if the inboard front straps make it easier to do the step last gybe? Or maybe it not being a full race sail means I can get away with the step last gybe?

One of the mistakes I made foiling was not setting my straps INboard on my Blast, which felt better on a fin with outboard straps. It felt awkward foiling jibes without stepping first with outboard straps.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..
Also wondering if the inboard front straps make it easier to do the step last gybe?

imho, yes. For me, outboard straps make the position awkward to step last and my body just has a hard time doing it. If it's a wide board with outside straps, it goes from hard to pretty much impossible. OTOH, the style I'm accustomed to favors outside straps because I enjoy long upwind legs so I can have fun on the way back down. I still want to get better at that kind of jibe though to add to the toolbox. Thirty years of doing nothing but step jibes isn't helping.

Select to expand quote

. Thirty years of doing nothing but step jibes isn't helping.

oooh yes, that's me too! I'm impressed with you The Door, that you can do it either way. I'm way too stuck in my ways

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..
Good session yesterday on bigger sail (6.5) and racier foil sab w800 and a wide free ride board.

Seems like I can gybe either way: stepping first or stepping last, but definitely have a preference for the stepping last gybe, probably cause that is what I am most used too. Also wondering if the inboard front straps make it easier to do the step last gybe? Or maybe it not being a full race sail means I can get away with the step last gybe?

Thanks thedoor, really good view of your foot work, appreciate the time and effort you put into making the video!
Now Andy wanted me to first move back foot all the way across to other side of board (Goya Bolt 135) while maintaining course, once I was stable in flight then initiate the gybe. Will give your foot work a try next time, certainly helps to minimize how far off the center of balance you move your feet.

I do like the two stage carve initiation with the back foot just past mid line and then further to rail mid way through gybe. Not sure why I started doing that, perhaps I felt going to the rail made my kit turn to fast but if I don't go further to the rail the board will stop turning when I flip big sails. Not sure if I do that with my smaller sails.....

Edit it looks like I only do that two stage carve initiation when doing the carve gybe...

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

Nicely done jibe. If I may add a couple of things: keep the front arm extended and head up and focused at the exit.

Makes it look too easy.

Edit: One more thing - entered at speed so plenty of energy to make it all the way around without falling off foil halfway through.

Edit, edit - black sail and helmet had me thinking it was you for a bit and wondering when you got the racier board.