Fin or Foil? Fly either way


The PWA pwaworldtour.com have hosted two great events, a 5* event in Israel with some world class sailors and controversy to match, followed by a 2* event in Croatia with more local sailors and arguably better wind (especially if your a fin fan). If you haven't seen the coverage some of the summary videos are definitely worth a few minutes! !

One of the main concerns about slalom racing under this new format is the danger of mixing fins and foils. and while not without risk, the two event showed a few things. First up in my eyes is the fact that the fin riders are just as likely to fall (or stall) at the marks!






And on the reaches there were some SPECTACULAR foiling breaches.




But it doesn't take a foil to get launched (Trust me I know! ) some of the fin riders had a bit of trouble keeping the reaches in control too!




I guess one of the big differences is that when you loos a bit of control on the fin..
It is a bit easier to recover your style! Damn that looks quick!



Safety aside. there does seem to be an advantage in foiling wide around the marks (unless your leading!).














If your not first,. then a wide gybe on the foil helps you avoid stalled or stopped sailors on the inside. and you probably won't miss a few metres of downwind angle to the next mark.

And it might help your friends on a fin feel a bit safer if they have space to gybe.




So after all the inspiring fin and foil races, I'm excited to copy the greats..









And get out there myself!




Can't wait for summer.











Happy sailing folks!

T-shirt of the year

I would not call the event in Israel a "great event". Besides the rather insensitive choice (a war causing hundreds of civilian deaths had just ended), the location showed rather dismal wind conditions.

Other than that all the races in the two locations have shown is that foils and fins have an advantage depending on conditions ...

Thanks for that summary

Great stuff, please keep it coming!

I'd have never reckoned the dude with the T-Shirt had a pony tail...

Another point on the Foil for slalom races is that it does give you the option of more strategic lines leading to the next mark.... you don't have such a disadvantage with a wide gybe low and more upwind angle to the next gybe or line.

fins don't seem to have as much control as foils LOOOL

Just tel that to Matteo





but AA might agree with you!

Interesting to see the Defi results here to.
350 front wing in 35kts with 4.3 sails.... small is fast!
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/N-Goyard-wins-defi-on-350-front-wing

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Paducah said..
I'd have never reckoned the dude with the T-Shirt had a pony tail...

or a mullet!

One of the other considerations is how have the sails changed.
Here are a Maui Sails TRXi 2014 compared to the latest, foiling sail, a 2022 SkyBlade. Both 7.0.

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berowne said..
One of the other considerations is how have the sails changed.
Here are a Maui Sails TRXi 2014 compared to the latest, foiling sail, a 2022 SkyBlade. Both 7.0.

Wow, a 40 cm extension.

For softer flex, less loaded, easier breathing and reaction to wind changes.
Lots of guys use softer bends to achieve the same with their work dsurf sails.

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LeeD said..
For softer flex, less loaded, easier breathing and reaction to wind changes.
Lots of guys use softer bends to achieve the same with their work dsurf sails.

I know people use extensions longer than 36. I've just never seen a sail officially requiring one.

I think racing foils and fins together is not fair nor good for windsurfing. No one races non-foiling Moths against foiling Moths. There should be separate events as the disciplines are different and as are relative speeds around a course except when the longboards can beat foils before the foilers get up on the foils. Battle of the boards events are one thing for fun and enjoyment as is the Swan River Festival of Windsurfing where Windfoil, Wingfoil, Slalom (finned) boards, Bic Techno, Raceboard and Windsurfer Class will compete in slalom, course racing and marathon on the same start line and courses including special courses for slalom for strong afternoon Fremantle Doctor sea breezes designed by a renowned veteran Swedish windsurfer-NOR coming soon. I suggest PWA being professional should be between top fin sailors and top foiling sailors in the separate disciplines as ultimately the foilers have the advantage around the courses set for PWA.

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RichardG said..
I think racing foils and fins together is not fair nor good for windsurfing. No one races non-foiling Moths against foiling Moths. There should be separate events as the disciplines are different and as are relative speeds around a course except when the longboards can beat foils before the foilers get up on the foils. Battle of the boards events are one thing for fun and enjoyment as is the Swan River Festival of Windsurfing where Windfoil, Wingfoil, Slalom (finned) boards, Bic Techno, Raceboard and Windsurfer Class will compete in slalom, course racing and marathon on the same start line and courses including special courses for slalom for strong afternoon Fremantle Doctor sea breezes designed by a renowned veteran Swedish windsurfer-NOR coming soon. I suggest PWA being professional should be between top fin sailors and top foiling sailors in the separate disciplines as ultimately the foilers have the advantage around the courses set for PWA.

Windsurfing is a sport which is dependent on technological evolution. If you don't like this - don't want to invest in this - think this is "unfair" (whatever that might mean when speaking of competition sports ), there are "one design" classes to participate in.

Foiling is -undoubtedly- the biggest (r)evolution since the invention of windsurfing. I makes sailing possible on spots and conditions previously unthinkable. Do you really expect a PWA event organizer , and the public (and the competitors) to wait for "slalom fin" conditions to arise when there's enough wind to run some spectacular foiling heaths ?

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RichardG said..
I suggest PWA being professional should be between top fin sailors and top foiling sailors in the separate disciplines as ultimately the foilers have the advantage around the courses set for PWA.

If they keep the traditional downwind 4 bouy slalom then in light winds foils will have the advantage, in stronger winds fins will. If they do what they did in Israel and have an upwind leg or bouys in wind shadows then thats unfair for the fins. The sport is downwind slalom.
Defi has an upwind leg.
At the 2* Croatia event sailors switched to fins when it got windier.
People are wetting themselves with excitement as foils have beaten fins in none downwind slalom events.
I'm waiting for 25-30 knots at Sotovento and a windy Sylt.

I dont think having womens fin and foil, mens fin and foil is a good idea as thats 4 separate elimination ladders to go through. Many times they struggle with 1.

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Bellerophon said..

RichardG said..
I think racing foils and fins together is not fair nor good for windsurfing. No one races non-foiling Moths against foiling Moths. There should be separate events as the disciplines are different and as are relative speeds around a course except when the longboards can beat foils before the foilers get up on the foils. Battle of the boards events are one thing for fun and enjoyment as is the Swan River Festival of Windsurfing where Windfoil, Wingfoil, Slalom (finned) boards, Bic Techno, Raceboard and Windsurfer Class will compete in slalom, course racing and marathon on the same start line and courses including special courses for slalom for strong afternoon Fremantle Doctor sea breezes designed by a renowned veteran Swedish windsurfer-NOR coming soon. I suggest PWA being professional should be between top fin sailors and top foiling sailors in the separate disciplines as ultimately the foilers have the advantage around the courses set for PWA.

Windsurfing is a sport which is dependent on technological evolution. If you don't like this - don't want to invest in this - think this is "unfair" (whatever that might mean when speaking of competition sports ), there are "one design" classes to participate in.

Foiling is -undoubtedly- the biggest (r)evolution since the invention of windsurfing. I makes sailing possible on spots and conditions previously unthinkable. Do you really expect a PWA event organizer , and the public (and the competitors) to wait for "slalom fin" conditions to arise when there's enough wind to run some spectacular foiling heaths ?

Well said not sure what a "foiling heaths" is but I get your point foiling is a big advance for sure which I am not questioning. Formula 1 is quite different to what every person drives daily. Controversy is a good thing just as technological advancement is also. PWA sailors will do what they wish under the applicable rules ultimately as dictated by realities of competition and so be it. I was just expressing my opinion that all sports tend to have categories and perhaps the PWA has a different approach right now for the reasons you have indicated. Fairness is not the objective of PWA rather the best sailor on the best equipment on the given course on the day. I have no issue with that.

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PhilUK said..

RichardG said..
I suggest PWA being professional should be between top fin sailors and top foiling sailors in the separate disciplines as ultimately the foilers have the advantage around the courses set for PWA.

If they keep the traditional downwind 4 bouy slalom then in light winds foils will have the advantage, in stronger winds fins will. If they do what they did in Israel and have an upwind leg or bouys in wind shadows then thats unfair for the fins. The sport is downwind slalom.
Defi has an upwind leg.
At the 2* Croatia event sailors switched to fins when it got windier.
People are wetting themselves with excitement as foils have beaten fins in none downwind slalom events.
I'm waiting for 25-30 knots at Sotovento and a windy Sylt.

I dont think having womens fin and foil, mens fin and foil is a good idea as thats 4 separate elimination ladders to go through. Many times they struggle with 1.

I see and understand your point of view. I guess the sport at the PWA level is evolving and redefining itself as it always has and will. Discussion is good and I guess it is heading where it is as you say.

It is by allowing fin and foil to compete against each other that technology evolves and competitors push the limits of each. The foil is slowly making ground against the fin in speed sailing -- who would have thought 2 years ago that a foil could be competitive in slalom? Each competitor has a choice -- if one (fin or foil) has a clear advantage over the other then everyone will go that route (unless someone has been experimenting with a new fin or foil and is willing to take a chance with it). If you're forced for some reason to compete against the foil on a fin in conditions that clearly favour the foil then that would be unfair or the other way around. It's not unfair if you have the choice -- like choosing the right sail size for the conditions.

My observation is that foils may save the sport of windsurfing, without foils it would continue it's slow death. This is evident at any surf shop where windsurfing gear alone is clearly not keeping the doors open.
Us old Seabreeze windsurfers may not want change but retailers, manufacturers and PWA require it to survive. From what I can tell no competitor or retailer was making a good living of windsurfing alone, unlike back when we were all young and stupid.

Well all I know from those photos is that I have a long way to go with my foiling gybes. I don't want ANYONE on ANYTHING near me when I'm trying the fly through a gybe. I don't even trust myself to be there .

An interesting read with the man of the moment.

www.surf-magazin.de/people/portraits/der-segelnde-windsurfer-interview-mit-nicolas-goyard?fbclid=IwAR2MpBpUUItaHf6vUWSFVnO6U5DBy-6Vw5_oqtUOjRTVgdPiGYg6_qZKPYU

Equipment registered. If we get a full calendar of PWA events for 2022, it will be interesting if anyone ditches most ditch the large fin slalom gear completely, to save on excess baggage. Equipment has gone from 3 boards and 6 sails to 4 boards and 7 sails, plus the foils themselves.

nor.pwaworldtour.com/France_2021_equipment

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PhilUK said..
An interesting read with the man of the moment.

www.surf-magazin.de/people/portraits/der-segelnde-windsurfer-interview-mit-nicolas-goyard?fbclid=IwAR2MpBpUUItaHf6vUWSFVnO6U5DBy-6Vw5_oqtUOjRTVgdPiGYg6_qZKPYU

Thanks Phil, that was a good read

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PhilUK said..
Equipment registered. If we get a full calendar of PWA events for 2022, it will be interesting if anyone ditches most ditch the large fin slalom gear completely, to save on excess baggage. Equipment has gone from 3 boards and 6 sails to 4 boards and 7 sails, plus the foils themselves.

nor.pwaworldtour.com/France_2021_equipment

I predict the 85 slalom board and largest sails (10.0, 9.3) will be dropped by almost everyone. 9.0 sail for light winds on foil (and maybe 10.0 to help in really light wind days). but the real question is how many will ditch the medium slalom board, 8.4 and 7.7 sails? In favour of 7.0 and 6.0 sails.

Of course for this to be possible more than 2 foils would be needed.
if foil speeds keep progressing it might even be possible to run at Tenerife or sylt etc. but the swell might be a deciding factor
my question is. does a 70 wide foil board make sense for higher winds or is the 91 a good allrounder?

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berowne said..

my question is. does a 70 wide foil board make sense for higher winds or is the 91 a good allrounder?

I have both and I think the 91 is faster nearly all the time. On a 91cm board you are further away from the rig so you can carry a bigger sail. the 70 is more fun though. I see the 91 being the board of choice until it is getting so rough that the nimble nature of the 70cm board becomes a factor. A 70cm board allows for faster response to height changes so if you are racing over close spaced swell , then it might have an advantage.

Look at the speed you can achieve with your back foot out of the straps!

So why not place a rear strap just behind and center of rear straps?
Dump the 2 rear straps since you don't use them.

This was Naish's thought in the mid '80's.
A more forward rear strap is more often useable, smoother, and allows advanced trimming....in ws.