Hi there.

I'm brand new to foiling and got this board as a crossover, looking to try wind foiling straight away, but hoping to be able to sup foil and maybe try wing dinging down the track.

My first 2 attempts at wind foiling have been not very successful and pretty frustrating. I'm happy persisting and dealing with the learning curve, but just wanting to make sure I'm setting up ok and not making it harder than it needs to be.

My set up is the Fanatic Sky 6'11" board, and Axis foil with the High Aspect 1010 front wing, 440 stab, 76cm fuse and 75cm mast. The 2 goes I've had have been with a 5.7 Ezzy elite.

Wondering if any others out there have got this board and got advice on how they set it up.

I've got the front wing midway between my feet, I'm using the front strap only and have tried the sail mast base midway and forward.
I'm conscious that the set up on this board is quite different to the conventional wind foil board, hence using the back option for the front foot strap and trying the sail mast base forward in its track.

I'm finding that as soon as it comes up onto the foil, it just spins off, left and right like a cork screw and throws me off. .
It feels like it lacks directional stability. Is it just me or is the 1010 ha front wing a poor choice for a beginner?

I wonder whether wings like the Sling shot infinity and the Fanatic flows that have down turned winglets guard against this spinning effect and is a pretty straight wing like mine much more prone to spinning upwind and down wind?
Is the 76cm fuse too short compared the ones like the slingshot ws and Starboard super cruiser, which are well over 80cm.

Advice and other peoples experiences would be much appreciated.

Sorta sounds like fairly typical beginner foiling issues. I remember first few times foiling the whole setup felt super squirrelly. Even now sometimes coming out of manouvres the gear can sometimes seem unpredictable. Probably best to get someone with more experience to sail it. If I was trying to windfoil that thing, I'd try moving the foil right to the back of the track, and the sail all the way forward. And then move either the sail mast back or the foil mast forward if you find you are having difficulty achieving flight.

Only thing less then ideal on the foil itself is the fuselage length. A 75cm fuselage is on the shorter side for windfoiling, but should still be ok to learn on. I don't think you should have any issues acheiving stable flight, but first gybes etc will probably be challenging. That said plenty of early windfoils were around that length and there are plenty of people who managed to learn just fine.

Oftentimes, when the board oscillates left and right barely controllably, the problem is weight on the backfoot and loose hips.
Meaning, you might be just leaning your whole weight onto you back foot, with no weight on the front foot.
In order to maintain a straight line, you need weight on both feet, especially the front foot.
I use a shorter fuze and a shorter mast, so that is not the problem.

Hi Bondalucci,
I tend to agree that you will overcome your issues with practice.
You could PM Pete (username Baldy123) he is an experienced windfoiler and now winging. I know he has had experience with both slingshot and axis foils. I'm sure he would be happy to answer specific questions.
Simon

Select to expand quote

swoosh said..
Sorta sounds like fairly typical beginner foiling issues. I remember first few times foiling the whole setup felt super squirrelly. Even now sometimes coming out of manouvres the gear can sometimes seem unpredictable. Probably best to get someone with more experience to sail it. If I was trying to windfoil that thing, I'd try moving the foil right to the back of the track, and the sail all the way forward. And then move either the sail mast back or the foil mast forward if you find you are having difficulty achieving flight.

Only thing less then ideal on the foil itself is the fuselage length. A 75cm fuselage is on the shorter side for windfoiling, but should still be ok to learn on. I don't think you should have any issues acheiving stable flight, but first gybes etc will probably be challenging. That said plenty of early windfoils were around that length and there are plenty of people who managed to learn just fine.

The mast track and foil track are pretty close together on that board so I agree with maximizing the distance between sail and foil and if you cannot fly easily then move the front foot strap backwards, If you still cannot fly move the foil mast forwards.

Boards like that lift very easy because its possible to have a lot of weight behind the foil, the difficulty is levelling off the board for stable flight.

Thanks for the feedback so far.
A lot of what people have said makes sense.
I'm glad to hear that the twisty issue is something others have experienced when learning.

Thedoor said
"The mast track and foil track are pretty close together on that board so I agree with maximizing the distance between sail and foil and if you cannot fly easily then move the front foot strap backwards, If you still cannot fly move the foil mast forwards.
Boards like that lift very easy because its possible to have a lot of weight behind the foil, the difficulty is levelling off the board for stable flight."

I have been able to get it to fly and level off, but very temporarily, because the spinning sideways both down wind and into the wind is so twitchy. It feels like there is no resistance to this twisting effect, so I was wondering about fuse length and also upturned or down turned wing tips like on the Infinity front wings and the older fanatic stabilisers.

Do others here use a front wing like the Axis 1010, or is it more for winging and sup foiling?

Select to expand quote

Bondalucci said..
Thanks for the feedback so far.
A lot of what people have said makes sense.
I'm glad to hear that the twisty issue is something others have experienced when learning.

Thedoor said
"The mast track and foil track are pretty close together on that board so I agree with maximizing the distance between sail and foil and if you cannot fly easily then move the front foot strap backwards, If you still cannot fly move the foil mast forwards.
Boards like that lift very easy because its possible to have a lot of weight behind the foil, the difficulty is levelling off the board for stable flight."

I have been able to get it to fly and level off, but very temporarily, because the spinning sideways both down wind and into the wind is so twitchy. It feels like there is no resistance to this twisting effect, so I was wondering about fuse length and also upturned or down turned wing tips like on the Infinity front wings and the older fanatic stabilisers.

Do others here use a front wing like the Axis 1010, or is it more for winging and sup foiling?

If you are referring to twitchy port to starboard turning, while in the air, this is mostly affected by the distance between the sail universal and the foil mast. I do not think wing tips would make much of a difference, at least I don't notice a difference between my one foil with out downswept wingtips and the others that are. Aside from trying to spread things out, in the beginning we need to learn to be more gentle when moving the rig around and with mast foot pressure.

If you are referring to more lateral side slippage, I notice this when the foil is too close to the surface, esp when going slow, or when the foil is in turbulence eg boat wake.

I am not familiar with that wing. I know Axis is big in surf, sup and kite. If this is it (axisfoils.com/products/s-series-1010mm-carbon-front-wing) it is pretty high aspect, I can't see why it won't work for windfoiling. The main difference between a windfoil and kite/surf foil is that we need a longer fuselage as this gives us pitch stability which helps for gybing. I don't think the shorter fuselage affects yaw stability much, but someone else will chime in if they know better. This style of wing seems to be increasingly more popular for surf/sup and winging. We tend to pump the board much less than surf/sup/wing guys, but I image it would do something good for us too. I don't know of anyone windfoiling with one yet.

Thanks thedoor.

Yes I am referring to the twitchy port to starboard rotation while in the air. Do you think the distance between the sail mast base and foil mast needs to be increased or decreased to minimize this?
It seems tempting to push the sail mast base forward to make the geometry more like a regular windfoil board, but would this increase the twitchiness as the leverage becomes greater?

I also just read through this thread with great interest that involved you and the SS Shred Sled....

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Slingshot-Shredsled?page=1

The dimensions of that board look very similar to mine, which is very encouraging
The video clip is exactly what I am aiming to do eventually!

Select to expand quote

Bondalucci said..
Thanks thedoor.

Yes I am referring to the twitchy port to starboard rotation while in the air. Do you think the distance between the sail mast base and foil mast needs to be increased or decreased to minimize this?
It seems tempting to push the sail mast base forward to make the geometry more like a regular windfoil board, but would this increase the twitchiness as the leverage becomes greater?

I also just read through this thread with great interest that involved you and the SS Shred Sled....

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Slingshot-Shredsled?page=1

The dimensions of that board look very similar to mine, which is very encouraging
The video clip is exactly what I am aiming to do eventually!

Good question about the leverage, what I suggest based on experience does seem counter intuitive from a leverage perspective. I noticed it clearly when i first switched from the wizard to the freestyle, which also has compact geometry (perhaps not as much as your windsup or the shredsled). With the freestyle I gained better control over the pitch of the board but noticed greater instability in the port to starboard rotation. I went from being automatic on my gybes, to being a hack. It was quite disconcerting to see the regression, but after a few weeks I was gybing consistently and I really appreciated the added control over the pitch.

We need one of the engineers on here to try and explain why I feel like that shorter sail mast to foil mast makes the board more lively port to starboard (Yaw?)

But the best thing is to make changes to things on the board/rig within the same session. It takes lots of trial and error to get things balanced and to learn the impact of what each change means to how you ride. It is an iterative process to get things dialed for each board/rider.

Hi Bondalucci
I have the same board. I have the slingshot infinity foil.
I bought the board to learn to wind wing on with the added bonus of wind foiling and sup foiling.
When I first tried it as a windfoil board I felt it was immediately different from a dedicated windfoil board because the mast foot is so close to the front foot and the foil is well forward of the rear of the board. I had to adjust my technique as with my normal board I will push against the foil mast a bit like a fin and the foil mast is either in line with or behind your back foot. Here it is further forward so rather than pushing laterally it is more upright but it definitely flies earlier and it is easier to pump the foil up and down. You virtually start in the right spot for foiling as there is plenty of board providing float behind the back foot and being sloped means it takes off without dragging that tail. The short nose makes it manoeuvrable and fun but a bit disconcerting at first. There may be easier boards to learn on but it just takes a bit change in technique. Easy board to learn foiling behind a boat but get the front foot well forward.

Hi Mr A.
Glad to hear from someone with the same board, so you may be good for helping me get my set up in the optimum spot for learning.

Could you tell me how you set up for easiest windfoiling please.
ie where do you position things?

- the sail mast foot in its track?
- the foil in its track?
- also the front footstraps? (I've got them in the furthest back setting and I'm trying with no back strap so far)

Is your wing the i76 or bigger? and are you using the windsurfing fuse or a shorter one.
So far I've only used a 5.7 sail.

Hope you're liking the board, it'll give me hope

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

Bondalucci said..
Thanks thedoor.

Yes I am referring to the twitchy port to starboard rotation while in the air. Do you think the distance between the sail mast base and foil mast needs to be increased or decreased to minimize this?
It seems tempting to push the sail mast base forward to make the geometry more like a regular windfoil board, but would this increase the twitchiness as the leverage becomes greater?

I also just read through this thread with great interest that involved you and the SS Shred Sled....

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Slingshot-Shredsled?page=1

The dimensions of that board look very similar to mine, which is very encouraging
The video clip is exactly what I am aiming to do eventually!

Good question about the leverage, what I suggest based on experience does seem counter intuitive from a leverage perspective. I noticed it clearly when i first switched from the wizard to the freestyle, which also has compact geometry (perhaps not as much as your windsup or the shredsled). With the freestyle I gained better control over the pitch of the board but noticed greater instability in the port to starboard rotation. I went from being automatic on my gybes, to being a hack. It was quite disconcerting to see the regression, but after a few weeks I was gybing consistently and I really appreciated the added control over the pitch.

We need one of the engineers on here to try and explain why I feel like that shorter sail mast to foil mast makes the board more lively port to starboard (Yaw?)

But the best thing is to make changes to things on the board/rig within the same session. It takes lots of trial and error to get things balanced and to learn the impact of what each change means to how you ride. It is an iterative process to get things dialed for each board/rider.

PIcture someone surf foiling, just ripping turns on a tiny board. Now have them keep the same foil but use a windfol board. Just the added swing weight alone will kill the turns. Now add a big sail way out in front. Now you have even more swing weight and sail force ON A LEVER. When the sail gets closer to the foil turning and in particular turning towards the wind gets eaiser. Smaller sail to foil dimensions have a lower moment of inetria. Using the classic ice skater analogy, arms out equals a sail forward and foil back set up. Keep charging it Bondalucci! It takes a minute to find the stability in something so inherantly loose. It is worth the effort!!!

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..

thedoor said..

Bondalucci said..
Thanks thedoor.

Yes I am referring to the twitchy port to starboard rotation while in the air. Do you think the distance between the sail mast base and foil mast needs to be increased or decreased to minimize this?
It seems tempting to push the sail mast base forward to make the geometry more like a regular windfoil board, but would this increase the twitchiness as the leverage becomes greater?

I also just read through this thread with great interest that involved you and the SS Shred Sled....

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Slingshot-Shredsled?page=1

The dimensions of that board look very similar to mine, which is very encouraging
The video clip is exactly what I am aiming to do eventually!

Good question about the leverage, what I suggest based on experience does seem counter intuitive from a leverage perspective. I noticed it clearly when i first switched from the wizard to the freestyle, which also has compact geometry (perhaps not as much as your windsup or the shredsled). With the freestyle I gained better control over the pitch of the board but noticed greater instability in the port to starboard rotation. I went from being automatic on my gybes, to being a hack. It was quite disconcerting to see the regression, but after a few weeks I was gybing consistently and I really appreciated the added control over the pitch.

We need one of the engineers on here to try and explain why I feel like that shorter sail mast to foil mast makes the board more lively port to starboard (Yaw?)

But the best thing is to make changes to things on the board/rig within the same session. It takes lots of trial and error to get things balanced and to learn the impact of what each change means to how you ride. It is an iterative process to get things dialed for each board/rider.

PIcture someone surf foiling, just ripping turns on a tiny board. Now have them keep the same foil but use a windfol board. Just the added swing weight alone will kill the turns. Now add a big sail way out in front. Now you have even more swing weight and sail force ON A LEVER. When the sail gets closer to the foil turning and in particular turning towards the wind gets eaiser. Smaller sail to foil dimensions have a lower moment of inetria. Using the classic ice skater analogy, arms out equals a sail forward and foil back set up. Keep charging it Bondalucci! It takes a minute to find the stability in something so inherantly loose. It is worth the effort!!!

That makes sense. Do you think the fact that we are standing closer to the mast (when the mast track is closer to the foil) affects how easily our movements of the rig impact that turning of the board?

Maybe apply windsurf freestyle setup compared the windsurf slalom setups?

So pushing the sail mast further forward should reduce the sensitivity to spinning up wind and down wind, by increasing the moment of inertia? That's what I'm hearing? I've also now got a 750 front wing to try which maybe more user friendly for learning wind foiling than the 1010 shape. It looks a bit more like the i76 which seems popular among users on this forum.
Thanks for the responses, I'll keep persisting

Wide spread feet and equal weight on each foot.

I have the Axis 910 front wing on my windfoil and it goes very well. (I have the short fuse - 68cm, and 440 tail)

The 1010 should also be nice.

The 1010 may be more stable than the 750. The 1010 should also rise slower and smoother than the 750.

I also have the 820. My 910 rises slower than the 820. The 910 is very stable. The 820 is happy to go up to a certain speed, whereas the 910 will cruise a bit faster.

I had a good 2 hour session yesterday, and was up on the foil 95% of the time.

I wobble a bit when initially lifting up on the foil. But after a few meters it kind of locks in, and cruises forward. Just takes a while to learn the new sensation of "taking off" on the foil.

I have a wider stance than my normal windsurfing.

I use a 4.8 wave sail. And can pump up on the foil now in pretty light winds. But a good 13-15 knots seems to be a good strength to make it easier. I am 76kg.

I have the 120lt Naish Hover Crossover board. I haven't bothered with straps yet. I've had about 15 sessions Windfoiling in the past year. But I do alot of Sup Foiling.

Aaron

I second the wider stance for windfoil v windsurf

Judging by how far forward the twin tracks are on the Fanatic the board is geared more towards winging!

For wind foiling I would try the foil ALL the way back in the twin tracks and the mast base all the way forward,
If it nose dives, scoot the mast base back 1/2" at a time, that should make everything more stable and less bambi on ice.

For example on my SS wizard the foil base is all the way back for wind foiling (1st pic) and all the way forward for winging (2nd pic)

Notice how far back my twin tracks are its because the board is shaped more for wind foiling and not really for winging although I can use it very well for winging with pump technique.

FYI - I use the SS infinity 84 with 90cm mast for wind and wing foiling. I did use the 70cm for winging but found it would foil out in steep chop so I use exact same set up for both.

Select to expand quote

ARichards said..
I have the Axis 910 front wing on my windfoil and it goes very well. (I have the short fuse - 68cm, and 440 tail)

The 1010 should also be nice.

The 1010 may be more stable than the 750. The 1010 should also rise slower and smoother than the 750.

I also have the 820. My 910 rises slower than the 820. The 910 is very stable. The 820 is happy to go up to a certain speed, whereas the 910 will cruise a bit faster.

I had a good 2 hour session yesterday, and was up on the foil 95% of the time.

I wobble a bit when initially lifting up on the foil. But after a few meters it kind of locks in, and cruises forward. Just takes a while to learn the new sensation of "taking off" on the foil.

I have a wider stance than my normal windsurfing.

I use a 4.8 wave sail. And can pump up on the foil now in pretty light winds. But a good 13-15 knots seems to be a good strength to make it easier. I am 76kg.

I have the 120lt Naish Hover Crossover board. I haven't bothered with straps yet. I've had about 15 sessions Windfoiling in the past year. But I do alot of Sup Foiling.

Aaron

Hi Aaron.
That's really interesting that you like the High Aspect shape of the 910 for windfoiling. I think that means you have very good skills, because one of the videos I watched said definitely use a low aspect foil when learning! Which stabilizer do you use with it?

I get that the 1010 might have better stability than the 750 in terms of tilting over side to side, because it's so wide, but my problem was not with tilting over, it was 'spinning' sharply upwind and downwind. I'm hoping the more down turned curved shape of the 750 may help my tracking forwards.

I'm looking forward to my next session to try and apply some of the stuff I've read here and on other forums.
By the way, Aaron, where in Vic do you mainly sail, as your Naish crossover will be similar to my set up.

Thanks for the feedback.

Select to expand quote

Bondalucci said..

ARichards said..
I have the Axis 910 front wing on my windfoil and it goes very well. (I have the short fuse - 68cm, and 440 tail)

The 1010 should also be nice.

The 1010 may be more stable than the 750. The 1010 should also rise slower and smoother than the 750.

I also have the 820. My 910 rises slower than the 820. The 910 is very stable. The 820 is happy to go up to a certain speed, whereas the 910 will cruise a bit faster.

I had a good 2 hour session yesterday, and was up on the foil 95% of the time.

I wobble a bit when initially lifting up on the foil. But after a few meters it kind of locks in, and cruises forward. Just takes a while to learn the new sensation of "taking off" on the foil.

I have a wider stance than my normal windsurfing.

I use a 4.8 wave sail. And can pump up on the foil now in pretty light winds. But a good 13-15 knots seems to be a good strength to make it easier. I am 76kg.

I have the 120lt Naish Hover Crossover board. I haven't bothered with straps yet. I've had about 15 sessions Windfoiling in the past year. But I do alot of Sup Foiling.

Aaron

Hi Aaron.
That's really interesting that you like the High Aspect shape of the 910 for windfoiling. I think that means you have very good skills, because one of the videos I watched said definitely use a low aspect foil when learning! Which stabilizer do you use with it?

I get that the 1010 might have better stability than the 750 in terms of tilting over side to side, because it's so wide, but my problem was not with tilting over, it was 'spinning' sharply upwind and downwind. I'm hoping the more down turned curved shape of the 750 may help my tracking forwards.

I'm looking forward to my next session to try and apply some of the stuff I've read here and on other forums.
By the way, Aaron, where in Vic do you mainly sail, as your Naish crossover will be similar to my set up.

Thanks for the feedback.

Hi Bondalucci

i have the 440 stab. I use it for the 820 and 910 front wings. I am getting the new 420 stab when it is available.

I sail in Torquay.

My friend has the same board as you. He's getting the hang of it, he's used it on about 4 different days now. He has the 820 and 920 front wings, the short fuse and the 440 tail. He doesn't seem to spin sharply upwind or downwind. It sounds like you need to spread your stance out wider. Don't try to ride the board how you would a normal windsurfer. I stand more upright with my weight a bit forward.

Aaron

Good to hear that your mate has the same board and is tasting success, Aaron.
I've got the 440 stab as well so that sounds promising for me.
I found this clip good. He breaks it down well, although his board is very different in dimensions to my Fanatic.



It's at 1.33 he mentions starting with a low aspect front wing.
You're spot on about not trying to ride it like a normal windsurfer.
I'm pretty sure I'm still pushing against the mast, even though I'm trying so hard not too.
Thanks for the tip, I'll stick at it.