Hi
I've seen some comments on this forum saying the slingshot sled flies much later than the levitator at similar volume and same conditions. I 've read also that some crossover boards (70% windfoiling, 30% wingfoiling) stick to the water. Why is this so? Which are the main features in a windfoiling board to take off early?

Mucel,

Some of the cross over boards have a kick tail without a hard edge or step to release the water. The water stays attached as it sweeps up the tail and that is really draggy. Boards like that are hard to get flying when paired with foils that require planning speeds before they lift.

I ride the v1 shred sled for its generous volume, good manners in displacement mode coupled with maneuverability in air. I added a release edge to the board (see pic) and it solved the problem with faster foils and it improved take off in general. I am 100kg and typically ride the Moses 1100 wing and a 4.5m sail. I can pump this set up free with a 12 knot puff, less if there are waves to use. I think that is amazing and this set up is optimized for riding small waves with the sail shut off more than light air sailing performance.

Sure, someone could do better with a 8m sail and levitator maybe down to 7 knots but thats basically racing gear and the two kits are like apples and oranges in terms of ease of use and maneuverability.

For the best light air performance outside of racing setups look at how Balz Muller goes about it. Compared to the SS gear the MB basilisk is long and narrow. He will use the 125 l in light air and pairs it with the sabfoil 720 and 5.2 foil freek sail. This is not for everyone but it shows what works when the skills and fitness are there.

In your other posts you have been talking about some very short boards with rather low volume and using the word uphaul a lot. Those boards look really cool but uphauling and taking off early will always be easier with more length. I bet the bigger and longer basilisk could be the ticket for you. Balz certainly proves that even MB's biggest board is agile. I would rock one if they made one with more volume.

Narrower width, tail cut outs, and light weight make for early take off, Goya Bolt 135 checks all three, just make sure your foil is compatible with its foil box placement.

Parallel rails, good tail volume, sharp release, flat rocker.

what does 'early' take off means ? Is it low wind (sub 10kt) or low speed (non planning).
I favor low speed, for I sail inland with gusty wind, so I don't have time/stamina to build up speed as one can do with large camed sail and race gear. My set up is a 1.7m long 62cm wide custom (100l) along with wave sail, but I definitely require a 12-15kt puff to hop my board off the water. I need 1000 front wing for that, though I can use smaller if the wind is more consistant.
But with constant wind below 10kt, I stick to archimedean mode while some (though few) dudes here are able to pump up their speed up on race gear with sail so large I am not sure I could uphaul.
What works really depends on your style/stamina/sailing condition (wind, wave...), but from what I see at my local spot there are many set up that don't work great : large thick LA foil on wide floaty board. Small wing along with wave sail. Commonly known bad foil (usually odd colored)

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6u1d0 said..
what does 'early' take off means ? Is it low wind (sub 10kt) or low speed (non planning).
I favor low speed, for I sail inland with gusty wind, so I don't have time/stamina to build up speed as one can do with large camed sail and race gear. My set up is a 1.7m long 62cm wide custom (100l) along with wave sail, but I definitely require a 12-15kt puff to hop my board off the water. I need 1000 front wing for that, though I can use smaller if the wind is more consistant.
But with constant wind below 10kt, I stick to archimedean mode while some (though few) dudes here are able to pump up their speed up on race gear with sail so large I am not sure I could uphaul.
What works really depends on your style/stamina/sailing condition (wind, wave...), but from what I see at my local spot there are many set up that don't work great : large thick LA foil on wide floaty board. Small wing along with wave sail. Commonly known bad foil (usually odd colored)

Interested in your board
1700 by 620 and 100l
Can you give some more info? How thick and what bottom shape?
Post some pics if you can
Cheers

Here one of my video :


Design and construction (french) :
guidedupetitshapeur.1fr1.net/t736-windfoil-172-x-65-100l
www.windsurfing33.com/forum//viewtopic.php?f=35&t=120901&start=60

A completely different set up from one of my friend :
www.windsurfing33.com/forum//viewtopic.php?f=42&t=121365&hilit=ronde
a round hull foil board. Franck is a terrific engineer, and we are about the same size (both sub 70kg and about 1.75m tall), but he is dedicated to speed. His set up is terrific in low wind. For the same condition (10-15kt) he would use a camed sail about 2m larger than me, but with much smaller front wing. Once airborn, he is quick. I know he is usually cruising 25kt with some top above 30kt.
He is also the kind of guy that uses precision measurement tools to tune his kit. I can tell you he is very accurate regarding mast rake and stab trim. And he uses GPS watch to monitor result.
He also has developed safety harness hook that are now used by Goyard and Albeau.
I once tried his set up, and a round hull with a camed sail is impressive by its acceleration, and smooth take off. But it's not the kind of fun I like the most.

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Sandman1221 said..
Narrower width, tail cut outs, and light weight make for early take off, Goya Bolt 135 checks all three, just make sure your foil is compatible with its foil box placement.

Pretty much the opposite of this

Cutouts are specifically designed to reduce lift at tail. They may be incorporated into foil boards for many reasons..... but certainly do not increase lift to maximise ease of takeoff.

Light weight hmmm well of course, it has to be a factor but when the foil is lifting 80 - 100kg all up do we think a few hundred grams of board weight matters......? I doubt one can feel the lighter board when it comes to takeoff speed, but we do want some longevity .......


Flat AF tail, less drag. Done.

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6u1d0 said..
Here one of my video :

Design and construction (french) :
guidedupetitshapeur.1fr1.net/t736-windfoil-172-x-65-100l
www.windsurfing33.com/forum//viewtopic.php?f=35&t=120901&start=60

A completely different set up from one of my friend :
www.windsurfing33.com/forum//viewtopic.php?f=42&t=121365&hilit=ronde
a round hull foil board. Franck is a terrific engineer, and we are about the same size (both sub 70kg and about 1.75m tall), but he is dedicated to speed. His set up is terrific in low wind. For the same condition (10-15kt) he would use a camed sail about 2m larger than me, but with much smaller front wing. Once airborn, he is quick. I know he is usually cruising 25kt with some top above 30kt.
He is also the kind of guy that uses precision measurement tools to tune his kit. I can tell you he is very accurate regarding mast rake and stab trim. And he uses GPS watch to monitor result.
He also has developed safety harness hook that are now used by Goyard and Albeau.
I once tried his set up, and a round hull with a camed sail is impressive by its acceleration, and smooth take off. But it's not the kind of fun I like the most.

Thanks
Love to see what other people are riding especially if it's custom

There's two ways to get flying. Either get the board speed up to above the stall speed of the foil, which means planing speed (10+ knots) for smaller foils. Or pop the board out of the water at lower speed, and use skillful pumping to build up speed with the board out of the water. Wing boards often (but not always) favor the second approach, and both a kick tail and short, low volume boards help.

For the first approach, there's two options to pick up speed: passive and active. Active requires a lot of pumping - think formula style whole body pumps. For this, wider boards are great, since they offer initial resistance to "pump against", and they plane earlier. Pairs well with large sails; the IQ Foil setup is a typical example.
The passive approach uses only minimal pumping. For that, narrower and longer boards are better, since they pick up speed easier, and can transition to planing speeds more easily. I started foiling with a 71 cm, 259 cm long slalom board, which excelled in this aspect. Even better is the Slingshot Flyer, which is almost like an old D2 board. I remember trying to pump up on a foil on this, and falling backward after a couple of pumps because it picked up speed so well that I have no apparent wind left (trying to get going to deep downwind).

As described, these are the "pure" extremes. In reality, there's usually some mix. Cutouts, for example, can make it easier to pop the board out of the water (in addition to whatever other benefits they have). Even foilers who get going quite passively when compared to racers in marginal conditions usually pump at least a little, and even a board that's almost 8 foot long with a flat bottom and wide tail can be popped out of the water. It just takes a lot more effort than a shorter board with a step tail, cutouts, or a lot of rocker.

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utcminusfour said..
Mucel,

Some of the cross over boards have a kick tail without a hard edge or step to release the water. The water stays attached as it sweeps up the tail and that is really draggy. Boards like that are hard to get flying when paired with foils that require planning speeds before they lift.

I ride the v1 shred sled for its generous volume, good manners in displacement mode coupled with maneuverability in air. I added a release edge to the board (see pic) and it solved the problem with faster foils and it improved take off in general. I am 100kg and typically ride the Moses 1100 wing and a 4.5m sail. I can pump this set up free with a 12 knot puff, less if there are waves to use. I think that is amazing and this set up is optimized for riding small waves with the sail shut off more than light air sailing performance.

Sure, someone could do better with a 8m sail and levitator maybe down to 7 knots but thats basically racing gear and the two kits are like apples and oranges in terms of ease of use and maneuverability.

For the best light air performance outside of racing setups look at how Balz Muller goes about it. Compared to the SS gear the MB basilisk is long and narrow. He will use the 125 l in light air and pairs it with the sabfoil 720 and 5.2 foil freek sail. This is not for everyone but it shows what works when the skills and fitness are there.

In your other posts you have been talking about some very short boards with rather low volume and using the word uphaul a lot. Those boards look really cool but uphauling and taking off early will always be easier with more length. I bet the bigger and longer basilisk could be the ticket for you. Balz certainly proves that even MB's biggest board is agile. I would rock one if they made one with more volume.

Thanks utc-4. And how affects the length in the manoeuvrability of the board? My 239 cm windfoiling board is quite stiff to turn. The difference in manoeuvrability is so big compared with a 190-200 cm board?

Select to expand quote

Mucel said..

utcminusfour said..
Mucel,

Some of the cross over boards have a kick tail without a hard edge or step to release the water. The water stays attached as it sweeps up the tail and that is really draggy. Boards like that are hard to get flying when paired with foils that require planning speeds before they lift.

I ride the v1 shred sled for its generous volume, good manners in displacement mode coupled with maneuverability in air. I added a release edge to the board (see pic) and it solved the problem with faster foils and it improved take off in general. I am 100kg and typically ride the Moses 1100 wing and a 4.5m sail. I can pump this set up free with a 12 knot puff, less if there are waves to use. I think that is amazing and this set up is optimized for riding small waves with the sail shut off more than light air sailing performance.

Sure, someone could do better with a 8m sail and levitator maybe down to 7 knots but thats basically racing gear and the two kits are like apples and oranges in terms of ease of use and maneuverability.

For the best light air performance outside of racing setups look at how Balz Muller goes about it. Compared to the SS gear the MB basilisk is long and narrow. He will use the 125 l in light air and pairs it with the sabfoil 720 and 5.2 foil freek sail. This is not for everyone but it shows what works when the skills and fitness are there.

In your other posts you have been talking about some very short boards with rather low volume and using the word uphaul a lot. Those boards look really cool but uphauling and taking off early will always be easier with more length. I bet the bigger and longer basilisk could be the ticket for you. Balz certainly proves that even MB's biggest board is agile. I would rock one if they made one with more volume.

Thanks utc-4. And how affects the length in the manoeuvrability of the board? My 239 cm windfoiling board is quite stiff to turn. The difference in manoeuvrability is so big compared with a 190-200 cm board?

Length means more swing weight so it's a trade of in terms of maneuverability in the air.
Here's a thought/theory I have been having and it would be interesting to hear the forums opinion.
For a given length of board moving the foil and therefore the rider forward of the tail should lower the swing weight because the foil is closer to the CG of the board, right? Moving the sail closer to the foil also lowers swing weight. So looking at the Basilisk the way Balz is winDfoiling it with the foil mast set forward in the tracks, while it is longer than the shortest foil boards the swing weight may be comparable?

Early takeoff for me is about sail pressure and timing. I can "feel" when it's ideal to launch. A couple pumps and some sail pressure will get the board up way before planing speed(at least on the PFI730). I'll also time the pump on the backside of a wave where the nose is already out of the water and headed downhill. I've only ridden the SS114. The short nose clears the back side of waves when I turn downwind to launch. Other times I do the "lazy launch", where the gust is high enough where I can just lean back in the harness and windsurf it up gradually off the water.

As far as swingweight, once your up the whole board is dead weight from a maneuvering perspective IMO. But sails size affects maneuvering as well. My 5.2 slows everything down compared to my 3.7. It just takes more time to swing all that mass around. A larger sail also implies lighter winds/less maneuvering as I'm milking every puff of wind. I'll use my 5.2 reluctantly when the winds are marginal, but 4.5 and smaller is where it gets really fun. In the end though, you gotta work with available conditions maximize TOW. Tradeoffs...

I'd love to use a 90L board, but don't have consistent enough winds to slog home comfortably at that low volume.

My .02 after a year of foiling.

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utcminusfour said..

Mucel said..

utcminusfour said..
Mucel,

Some of the cross over boards have a kick tail without a hard edge or step to release the water. The water stays attached as it sweeps up the tail and that is really draggy. Boards like that are hard to get flying when paired with foils that require planning speeds before they lift.

I ride the v1 shred sled for its generous volume, good manners in displacement mode coupled with maneuverability in air. I added a release edge to the board (see pic) and it solved the problem with faster foils and it improved take off in general. I am 100kg and typically ride the Moses 1100 wing and a 4.5m sail. I can pump this set up free with a 12 knot puff, less if there are waves to use. I think that is amazing and this set up is optimized for riding small waves with the sail shut off more than light air sailing performance.

Sure, someone could do better with a 8m sail and levitator maybe down to 7 knots but thats basically racing gear and the two kits are like apples and oranges in terms of ease of use and maneuverability.

For the best light air performance outside of racing setups look at how Balz Muller goes about it. Compared to the SS gear the MB basilisk is long and narrow. He will use the 125 l in light air and pairs it with the sabfoil 720 and 5.2 foil freek sail. This is not for everyone but it shows what works when the skills and fitness are there.

In your other posts you have been talking about some very short boards with rather low volume and using the word uphaul a lot. Those boards look really cool but uphauling and taking off early will always be easier with more length. I bet the bigger and longer basilisk could be the ticket for you. Balz certainly proves that even MB's biggest board is agile. I would rock one if they made one with more volume.

Thanks utc-4. And how affects the length in the manoeuvrability of the board? My 239 cm windfoiling board is quite stiff to turn. The difference in manoeuvrability is so big compared with a 190-200 cm board?

Length means more swing weight so it's a trade of in terms of maneuverability in the air.
Here's a thought/theory I have been having and it would be interesting to hear the forums opinion.
For a given length of board moving the foil and therefore the rider forward of the tail should lower the swing weight because the foil is closer to the CG of the board, right? Moving the sail closer to the foil also lowers swing weight. So looking at the Basilisk the way Balz is winDfoiling it with the foil mast set forward in the tracks, while it is longer than the shortest foil boards the swing weight may be comparable?

100% this is true, although going more compact on geometry can make a board less directionally stable. A good thing if you can manage it.
Also having the foil further forward makes it hard to pop the board out of the water at low speeds since you're fighting against a much longer tail rocker. Only really a factor if using a foil where that is a good technique to get going.

Armstrong uses this setup on their wing boards and most folks really like how they ride since they retain some length but feel on the short side.

Great stuff here already! My 2c for 'early flying':

I'm a very active sailor & good pumper. If this is your style, a compact setup is great! By compact I mean mastfoot, footstraps and foil mast all crammed into a very small area. My foil mast is right underneath the backfoot, mastfoot all the way back as far as it can go. This really increases the power you get from pumps. My board is 180, which I feel is a tad short for early flight, I think the optimal compromise length for an early flying foilboard is around 200cm.

Here's an older vid of me pumping my kit (4.6 wavesail, 900cm2 foil and 105L 180x72cm board, parallel rails) up in a 12 knot gust on a 10-12 day. I was around 90kgs at the time. Doing this takes huge endurance and strength, which I no longer posses since I stopped racing. These kind of feats are no longer within the realm of possibility for me now.

www.instagram.com/tv/ByP0omlhJ7m/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

In the same wind you can get up with less strength & skill using a bigger front wing. I prefer the smaller wings even in light winds because they are faster which helps me glide from gust to gust. I choose to exchange some lift in my setup for more time & distance when passing a lull up in the air. A bigger wing will get up earlier, but in my experience also travel less far in a lull where the wind is not enough to keep you powered up on either (the big or small wing). In the end its all a compromise.

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WhiteofHeart said..
Great stuff here already! My 2c for 'early flying':

I'm a very active sailor & good pumper. If this is your style, a compact setup is great! By compact I mean mastfoot, footstraps and foil mast all crammed into a very small area. My foil mast is right underneath the backfoot, mastfoot all the way back as far as it can go. This really increases the power you get from pumps. My board is 180, which I feel is a tad short for early flight, I think the optimal compromise length for an early flying foilboard is around 200cm.

Here's an older vid of me pumping my kit (4.6 wavesail, 900cm2 foil and 105L 180x72cm board, parallel rails) up in a 12 knot gust on a 10-12 day. I was around 90kgs at the time. Doing this takes huge endurance and strength, which I no longer posses since I stopped racing. These kind of feats are no longer within the realm of possibility for me now.

www.instagram.com/tv/ByP0omlhJ7m/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

In the same wind you can get up with less strength & skill using a bigger front wing. I prefer the smaller wings even in light winds because they are faster which helps me glide from gust to gust. I choose to exchange some lift in my setup for more time & distance when passing a lull up in the air. A bigger wing will get up earlier, but in my experience also travel less far in a lull where the wind is not enough to keep you powered up on either (the big or small wing). In the end its all a compromise.

Most impressive, WoH!

What is the distance between foil mast and mast base on that setup? I'm really comfortable on my race-style board with anything from 40.5-43" (103-109cm) depending on the sail - easy to adjust height, easy to maintain, stable to jibe. However on my Sealion wave-sup where the maximum distance is 31" (78cm) between front bolt and mastfoot I really struggle maintaining stable flight. Sorry I don't have video but I'd love to hear some guesses anyhow as to what I need to adjust. Essentially as soon as it lifts it tail walks and wants to breach, even with my front foot pretty far forward. More mast base pressure? Less lifty stab angle? More speed before I allow it to start to foil up? Shorter fuse to bring the front wing back? Tuttle not tracks so I can't move the whole setup.

It's definitely going foil earlier with a smaller sail than my wider board once I get it sorted but for now it's a bucking bronco.

78cm ! From front bolt to mast foot is really quite short.

on my 2021 FoilX 125, the mast foot is 88cm in the mid track position measured from the front Tuttle bolt.

BTW the rear straps are behind / on top of the foil head.. similar to WoH set up.
rear screw holes on rear straps are -4.5/-2.0/+0.5 cm compared to front bolt.
Front straps (rear screw holes ) are +55.0/57.5/60cm from the front bolt hole.


the board is manoeuvrable enough for me !

Crazy idea (from ignorance, I don't windfoil yet):

How about to windfoil the 5'10"x 28.875" (180x73 cm) version Kalama's Wing foiling longer/rounder shapes?
kalamaperformance.com/product/e3-foil-wing-sup/
or a variation of it, also with foil tracks further back.

With the innovative hull/chime rails, less active pumping might be needed with small foil wings while keeping the swing weight minimum.
Stability not great (to uphaul) but maybe still slogable (123lit)

Probably a stupid idea but the concept is being a breakthrough for SUP/prone downwind foiling (barracuda)

www.instagram.com/tv/Cc2MwlHD9nN/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
kalamaperformance.com/product/e3-wing-prone-downwind/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Kalama-Baracuda-Planing-hull-theory-is-dead-?page=1

Cheers!

Select to expand quote

MarcCRider said..
Crazy idea (from ignorance, I don't windfoil yet):

How about to windfoil the 5'10"x 28.875" (180x73 cm) version Kalama's Wing foiling longer/rounder shapes?
kalamaperformance.com/product/e3-foil-wing-sup/
or a variation of it, also with foil tracks further back.

With the innovative hull/chime rails, less active pumping might be needed with small foil wings while keeping the swing weight minimum.
Stability not great but maybe still slogable (123lit)

Probably a stupid idea but the concept is being a breakthrough for SUP/prone downwind foiling (barracuda)

www.instagram.com/tv/Cc2MwlHD9nN/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
kalamaperformance.com/product/e3-wing-prone-downwind/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Kalama-Baracuda-Planing-hull-theory-is-dead-?page=1

Cheers!

I want to build that. Do you have any time I can borrow?

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..
Great stuff here already! My 2c for 'early flying':

I'm a very active sailor & good pumper. If this is your style, a compact setup is great! By compact I mean mastfoot, footstraps and foil mast all crammed into a very small area. My foil mast is right underneath the backfoot, mastfoot all the way back as far as it can go. This really increases the power you get from pumps. My board is 180, which I feel is a tad short for early flight, I think the optimal compromise length for an early flying foilboard is around 200cm.

Here's an older vid of me pumping my kit (4.6 wavesail, 900cm2 foil and 105L 180x72cm board, parallel rails) up in a 12 knot gust on a 10-12 day. I was around 90kgs at the time. Doing this takes huge endurance and strength, which I no longer posses since I stopped racing. These kind of feats are no longer within the realm of possibility for me now.

www.instagram.com/tv/ByP0omlhJ7m/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

In the same wind you can get up with less strength & skill using a bigger front wing. I prefer the smaller wings even in light winds because they are faster which helps me glide from gust to gust. I choose to exchange some lift in my setup for more time & distance when passing a lull up in the air. A bigger wing will get up earlier, but in my experience also travel less far in a lull where the wind is not enough to keep you powered up on either (the big or small wing). In the end its all a compromise.

That's Sic Bart!
Yes, everything is a compromise. I think the other pro for a smaller higher aspect front wing is better upwind ability. Given your skill, fitness and flat water venue you are obviously making the right choices.

In the ocean the waves are the answer for everything.
You can ride them to pass through a lull.
When the waves are at even a slight angle to the wind (side on) you can ride them to get upwind.
You can use them to take off with. Even when sailing into the waves there is a boost of foil lift as you pass the crest and if you time you pump for that moment it can get you flying.
In the context of light winds and small surf all these techniques are more effective and easier with a bigger front wing.
All that said, I am even considering a smaller wing (sab 999). Trying to find the sweet spot for my variables.

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..

MarcCRider said..
Crazy idea (from ignorance, I don't windfoil yet):

How about to windfoil the 5'10"x 28.875" (180x73 cm) version Kalama's Wing foiling longer/rounder shapes?
kalamaperformance.com/product/e3-foil-wing-sup/
or a variation of it, also with foil tracks further back.

With the innovative hull/chime rails, less active pumping might be needed with small foil wings while keeping the swing weight minimum.
Stability not great but maybe still slogable (123lit)

Probably a stupid idea but the concept is being a breakthrough for SUP/prone downwind foiling (barracuda)

www.instagram.com/tv/Cc2MwlHD9nN/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
kalamaperformance.com/product/e3-wing-prone-downwind/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Kalama-Baracuda-Planing-hull-theory-is-dead-?page=1

Cheers!

I want to build that. Do you have any time I can borrow?

Great someone has thought and elaborate on it before: not so crazy idea I guess. Nice looking shape!
Not many free time but would gladly help but ... I live near Barcelona
Brainstorming help ... as much as you need

There is a reason why 42 inches between mast foot and front fin bolt is a very common geometry. It balances the forces.

At 31 inches it is not surprising that is just wants to tail-walk and breach. The forces are out of balance.

Back to the good-ole youtube I made 4 years ago: