I was going to post a few comments on and about a previous thread
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Windsurfing-Foiling-2018?page=9 .
This thread is now closed, so I'll do it now because this issue is by no means settled and also because it has recent and misleading ramifications on a French thread that feeds on the same hearsay ( www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=113208&sid=bf7a25af10697016cac2375d46c543bc&start=15) . They openly refer to Seabreeze in their comments.

The focus of the remarks ( and of the attacks ) on the previous thread was a certain XYZ defending the FRP Gear minifoils on the strength of his own experience,

Sadly, neither the tone nor the contents of the arguments raised in that thread against these minifoils went beyond raw innuendos and cheap personal attacks against XYZ, with nobody citing his own personal experience to corroborate the negative comments.

True , in iWindsurf for instance, one of my favorite Forums along with Seabreeze, there are , to be sure, a few positive reviews based on personal experience, but they are conveniently ignored by many in the community , either because they doggedly stick to preconceived ideas. or because there are commercial interests involved and those who post negative comments may do so just because they have an axe to grind. ..( manufacturers, too, have their antennas on Forums, as a source of precious information. No wonder if they try to steer the windsurfers' opinions against possible (and cheaper ) competitors.

Kind of vicious circle. Probably very few bought (or tried) these minifoils, just because the " others" say that hey are not good ..The bad reputation keeps feeding and gaining strength on mere hearsay.

When I speak of "cheap" remarks, I really mean it: some on that thread went as far as insinuating that XYZ or the owner of FRP ( whom they suspect of being the same Russian individual behind FRP ) don't really have a PhD in engineering .

The contention was also made that , even if the supporters had a PhD , it would be irrelevant, because for them what really counts is experience in windsurfing..
Really? Theory and practice are intertwined : we certainly need a good mechanic to fix our car, but only an engineer can design its engine and improve its performance.

XYZ is also suspected of hiding a vested interest in selling the minifoils, hence he would be making misleading, if not false, claims, in order to push the sales.
It was perhaps inappropriate that XYZ should insinuate that Robby Naish faked the wind-speed in his videos, but he, too, has a vested interest in selling his product,, after all, yet nobody doubts his reliability and good faith. One weight too measures!

Come on, guys! Those who, like me are interested in these minifoils need much more than underhand innuendos or personal attacks against those who go against conventional wisdom. if they are to to be convinced that these fly foils are ineffective and a waste of money. They might well be so, but I need to have a consistent negative feed-back from people who have tried them and not just heard about them. which so far has not been the case.

Until then, the comments made by some windsurfers on this issue , on this platform or elsewhere, are not far from the arguments made in ages past by those who contended that the Earth cannot be round, because if you lay a spherical object like a ball on a perfectly flat surface, you see, it doesn't roll away.....

Before concluding, lest somebody think that I am a Russian just trying to defend two fellow country-men, let me say that I am not Russian, but Italian, born and raised there, but now living in North America.

Francone

What is your point? How are you going to help the foiling community? You have a lot of time on your hands. Just my 2 cents. Now close this thread.

Select to expand quote

Francone said..
I was going to post a few comments on and about a previous thread
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Windsurfing-Foiling-2018?page=9 .
This thread is now closed, so I'll do it now because this issue is by no means settled and also because it has recent and misleading ramifications on a French thread that feeds on the same hearsay ( www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=113208&sid=bf7a25af10697016cac2375d46c543bc&start=15) . They openly refer to Seabreeze in their comments.

The focus of the remarks ( and of the attacks ) on the previous thread was a certain XYZ defending the FRP Gear minifoils on the strength of his own experience,

Sadly, neither the tone nor the contents of the arguments raised in that thread against these minifoils went beyond raw innuendos and cheap personal attacks against XYZ, with nobody citing his own personal experience to corroborate the negative comments.

True , in iWindsurf for instance, one of my favorite Forums along with Seabreeze, there are , to be sure, a few positive reviews based on personal experience, but they are conveniently ignored by many in the community , either because they doggedly stick to preconceived ideas. or because there are commercial interests involved and those who post negative comments may do so just because they have an axe to grind. ..( manufacturers, too, have their antennas on Forums, as a source of precious information. No wonder if they try to steer the windsurfers' opinions against possible (and cheaper ) competitors.

Kind of vicious circle. Probably very few bought (or tried) these minifoils, just because the " others" say that hey are not good ..The bad reputation keeps feeding and gaining strength on mere hearsay.

When I speak of "cheap" remarks, I really mean it: some on that thread went as far as insinuating that XYZ or the owner of FRP ( whom they suspect of being the same Russian individual behind FRP ) don't really have a PhD in engineering .

The contention was also made that , even if the supporters had a PhD , it would be irrelevant, because for them what really counts is experience in windsurfing..
Really? Theory and practice are intertwined : we certainly need a good mechanic to fix our car, but only an engineer can design its engine and improve its performance.

XYZ is also suspected of hiding a vested interest in selling the minifoils, hence he would be making misleading, if not false, claims, in order to push the sales.
It was perhaps inappropriate that XYZ should insinuate that Robby Naish faked the wind-speed in his videos, but he, too, has a vested interest in selling his product,, after all, yet nobody doubts his reliability and good faith. One weight too measures!

Come on, guys! Those who, like me are interested in these minifoils need much more than underhand innuendos or personal attacks against those who go against conventional wisdom. if they are to to be convinced that these fly foils are ineffective and a waste of money. They might well be so, but I need to have a consistent negative feed-back from people who have tried them and not just heard about them. which so far has not been the case.

Until then, the comments made by some windsurfers on this issue , on this platform or elsewhere, are not far from the arguments made in ages past by those who contended that the Earth cannot be round, because if you lay a spherical object like a ball on a perfectly flat surface, you see, it doesn't roll away.....

Before concluding, lest somebody think that I am a Russian just trying to defend two fellow country-men, let me say that I am not Russian, but Italian, born and raised there, but now living in North America.

Francone

Perhaps buy and try a set of of his wonderful foils and let us know how they are? Perhaps they are indeed great, but he didn't get off to a good start.

Bad mouthing your competitors (as he did) is not a great way to gain customers, and was probably why no one here (at least) took interest in what he was actually trying to sell.

Select to expand quote

Francone said..
I was going to post a few comments on and about a previous thread
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Windsurfing-Foiling-2018?page=9 .
This thread is now closed, so I'll do it now because this issue is by no means settled and also because it has recent and misleading ramifications on a French thread that feeds on the same hearsay ( www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=113208&sid=bf7a25af10697016cac2375d46c543bc&start=15) . They openly refer to Seabreeze in their comments.

The focus of the remarks ( and of the attacks ) on the previous thread was a certain XYZ defending the FRP Gear minifoils on the strength of his own experience,

Sadly, neither the tone nor the contents of the arguments raised in that thread against these minifoils went beyond raw innuendos and cheap personal attacks against XYZ, with nobody citing his own personal experience to corroborate the negative comments.

True , in iWindsurf for instance, one of my favorite Forums along with Seabreeze, there are , to be sure, a few positive reviews based on personal experience, but they are conveniently ignored by many in the community , either because they doggedly stick to preconceived ideas. or because there are commercial interests involved and those who post negative comments may do so just because they have an axe to grind. ..( manufacturers, too, have their antennas on Forums, as a source of precious information. No wonder if they try to steer the windsurfers' opinions against possible (and cheaper ) competitors.

Kind of vicious circle. Probably very few bought (or tried) these minifoils, just because the " others" say that hey are not good ..The bad reputation keeps feeding and gaining strength on mere hearsay.

When I speak of "cheap" remarks, I really mean it: some on that thread went as far as insinuating that XYZ or the owner of FRP ( whom they suspect of being the same Russian individual behind FRP ) don't really have a PhD in engineering .

The contention was also made that , even if the supporters had a PhD , it would be irrelevant, because for them what really counts is experience in windsurfing..
Really? Theory and practice are intertwined : we certainly need a good mechanic to fix our car, but only an engineer can design its engine and improve its performance.

XYZ is also suspected of hiding a vested interest in selling the minifoils, hence he would be making misleading, if not false, claims, in order to push the sales.
It was perhaps inappropriate that XYZ should insinuate that Robby Naish faked the wind-speed in his videos, but he, too, has a vested interest in selling his product,, after all, yet nobody doubts his reliability and good faith. One weight too measures!

Come on, guys! Those who, like me are interested in these minifoils need much more than underhand innuendos or personal attacks against those who go against conventional wisdom. if they are to to be convinced that these fly foils are ineffective and a waste of money. They might well be so, but I need to have a consistent negative feed-back from people who have tried them and not just heard about them. which so far has not been the case.

Until then, the comments made by some windsurfers on this issue , on this platform or elsewhere, are not far from the arguments made in ages past by those who contended that the Earth cannot be round, because if you lay a spherical object like a ball on a perfectly flat surface, you see, it doesn't roll away.....

Before concluding, lest somebody think that I am a Russian just trying to defend two fellow country-men, let me say that I am not Russian, but Italian, born and raised there, but now living in North America.

Francone

I tried the foil and fin wing of the XYZ manufacturer. the foil and fin wing are not working fine. As for the reviews, XYZ sent its foie for free to athletes. The athletes tried the foil and threw it in the trash. Now the price of the XYZ foil is 3000 dollars. I think for that kind of money it's better to buy lokefoil, starboard, zfins, phantom, exploder.



The wing fin cannot work normally as the lifting force lifts the stern and the middle of the board sticks, which reduces the speed. I also tried his fin wing



it seems to me that XYZ is specifically creating a new theme here in a few months, for advertising.

If XYZ sends you his miracle foil for free. Then it makes sense to try it.

buy it, try it, publish it.

FRP induced a very strange discussion about its products in the German surf-forum, too.

No one wanted to buy one FRP - despite a large number of foiler in this forum.

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

Francone said..
I was going to post a few comments on and about a previous thread
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Windsurfing-Foiling-2018?page=9 .
This thread is now closed, so I'll do it now because this issue is by no means settled and also because it has recent and misleading ramifications on a French thread that feeds on the same hearsay ( www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=113208&sid=bf7a25af10697016cac2375d46c543bc&start=15) . They openly refer to Seabreeze in their comments.

The focus of the remarks ( and of the attacks ) on the previous thread was a certain XYZ defending the FRP Gear minifoils on the strength of his own experience,

Sadly, neither the tone nor the contents of the arguments raised in that thread against these minifoils went beyond raw innuendos and cheap personal attacks against XYZ, with nobody citing his own personal experience to corroborate the negative comments.

True , in iWindsurf for instance, one of my favorite Forums along with Seabreeze, there are , to be sure, a few positive reviews based on personal experience, but they are conveniently ignored by many in the community , either because they doggedly stick to preconceived ideas. or because there are commercial interests involved and those who post negative comments may do so just because they have an axe to grind. ..( manufacturers, too, have their antennas on Forums, as a source of precious information. No wonder if they try to steer the windsurfers' opinions against possible (and cheaper ) competitors.

Kind of vicious circle. Probably very few bought (or tried) these minifoils, just because the " others" say that hey are not good ..The bad reputation keeps feeding and gaining strength on mere hearsay.

When I speak of "cheap" remarks, I really mean it: some on that thread went as far as insinuating that XYZ or the owner of FRP ( whom they suspect of being the same Russian individual behind FRP ) don't really have a PhD in engineering .

The contention was also made that , even if the supporters had a PhD , it would be irrelevant, because for them what really counts is experience in windsurfing..
Really? Theory and practice are intertwined : we certainly need a good mechanic to fix our car, but only an engineer can design its engine and improve its performance.

XYZ is also suspected of hiding a vested interest in selling the minifoils, hence he would be making misleading, if not false, claims, in order to push the sales.
It was perhaps inappropriate that XYZ should insinuate that Robby Naish faked the wind-speed in his videos, but he, too, has a vested interest in selling his product,, after all, yet nobody doubts his reliability and good faith. One weight too measures!

Come on, guys! Those who, like me are interested in these minifoils need much more than underhand innuendos or personal attacks against those who go against conventional wisdom. if they are to to be convinced that these fly foils are ineffective and a waste of money. They might well be so, but I need to have a consistent negative feed-back from people who have tried them and not just heard about them. which so far has not been the case.

Until then, the comments made by some windsurfers on this issue , on this platform or elsewhere, are not far from the arguments made in ages past by those who contended that the Earth cannot be round, because if you lay a spherical object like a ball on a perfectly flat surface, you see, it doesn't roll away.....

Before concluding, lest somebody think that I am a Russian just trying to defend two fellow country-men, let me say that I am not Russian, but Italian, born and raised there, but now living in North America.

Francone

Perhaps buy and try a set of of his wonderful foils and let us know how they are? Perhaps they are indeed great, but he didn't get off to a good start.

Bad mouthing your competitors (as he did) is not a great way to gain customers, and was probably why no one here (at least) took interest in what he was actually trying to sell.

I was not thinking of the FRP carbon foil. As wonderful as it may ( or may not!) be, its $ 3,000 price tag is well beyond my budget.
Current carbon foils sell for half price . They would be a more logical choice,, but even so, I don't want to pay $ 1500 just for the pleasure to ride 1 m. above the water.. I like the contact with the water. Otherwise I would go..gliding.

What I was interested in , really, were the FRP Gear mini-foils. Last fall, when I contacted Stepan, they were selling for about $ 200-300 and he was working on some modifications for next spring-summer. .
These minifoils are designed to provide enough lift to raise the board to a plane in light winds.. It is on these foils that the discussion rages within the community and it is these minifoils that receive a bad rap , deplorably mostly based on hearsay, I have to presume, this, because so far nobody has come out saying that he tried them and explaining why they are not good. It is always on somebody else's hearsay

Regarding bad mouthing competitors I hope you are not referring to me, simply because I don't sell anything and therefore I have no competitors to bad mouth. I am just a windsurfer like you.
There was, for sure, a fair amount of bad mouthing in the thread I referred to, mostly gratuitous and ill-founded allegations against XYZ, and FRP, a bit like children bickering about who is the best mom and everybody saying" Mine ,mine, mine !!!.."

Regarding your suggestion that I should buy or try these minifoils, this is exactly what I'll do. I'll contact FRP before summer to see if there have been modifications on them , hopefully for the better.

Thanks for the input

Francone

Select to expand quote

ZeroVix said..
What is your point? How are you going to help the foiling community? You have a lot of time on your hands. Just my 2 cents. Now close this thread.

You have the right to disagree, but you have to understand first, before sending anybody packing just because you don't even understand the point that is made.
Simply stated, on the thread I referred to ( which I am sure you didn't read because you only have your..2 cts..) there is too much hearsay and , at times, misinformation, as well bad mouthing and personal attacks on this issue . What I was getting at is that this is not the healthy discussion that a Forum should provide..

Regarding your question" how am I going to help the foilng community, " ,it is precisely by reminding people , especially YOU, that civility and open-mindedness are the building block of any constructive exchange. I hope you don't mean that the only constructive exchange is when you agree with somebody, or even the majority.

You are now " ordering" (!) me to close this thread, in other words to shut up. This proves how right I was (and am ) in my comments. about civility and open mindedness
But then you only have 2 cts at your disposal. If these 2 cts are to be measured in terms intelligence, I think that what you'll ever be able to understand remains hopelessly limited...

Francone

Select to expand quote

Francone said..

ZeroVix said..
What is your point? How are you going to help the foiling community? You have a lot of time on your hands. Just my 2 cents. Now close this thread.

You have the right to disagree, but you have to understand first, before sending anybody packing just because you don't even understand the point that is made.
Simply stated, on the thread I referred to ( which I am sure you didn't read because you only have your..2 cts..) there is too much hearsay and , at times, misinformation, as well bad mouthing and personal attacks on this issue . What I was getting at is that this is not the healthy discussion that a Forum should provide..
Regarding your question" how am I going to help the foilng community, " ,it is precisely by reminding people , especially YOU, that civility and open-mindedness are the building block of any constructive exchange.

You are now " ordering" (!) me to close this thread, in other words to shut up. This proves how right I was (and am ) in my comments. about civility and open mindedness
But then you only have 2 cts at your disposal. If these 2 cts are to be measured in terms intelligence, I think that what you'll ever be able to understand remains hopelessly limited...

Francone

Again, what value are you offering the wind foiling community? You seem to have deeper personal issues that we are not qualified to help you with. This is the wrong forum. Keep spending endless time on your rants, but until you offer anything else of value... you got the point. Ciao.

- Almost every year since 2018, Francone Ittiandro keeps repeating the same message. Troll or just confused?? A valuable post would be that you purchased or made the product for yourself (my guess a few unsold in your garage) and post a video of yourself. I would like to see "you" on the foil. Until then, we are going to hear every year your new years resolution. Or sales pitch??

Select to expand quote

antonmik said..

Francone said..
I was going to post a few comments on and about a previous thread
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Windsurfing-Foiling-2018?page=9 .
This thread is now closed, so I'll do it now because this issue is by no means settled and also because it has recent and misleading ramifications on a French thread that feeds on the same hearsay ( www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=113208&sid=bf7a25af10697016cac2375d46c543bc&start=15) . They openly refer to Seabreeze in their comments.

The focus of the remarks ( and of the attacks ) on the previous thread was a certain XYZ defending the FRP Gear minifoils on the strength of his own experience,

Sadly, neither the tone nor the contents of the arguments raised in that thread against these minifoils went beyond raw innuendos and cheap personal attacks against XYZ, with nobody citing his own personal experience to corroborate the negative comments.

True , in iWindsurf for instance, one of my favorite Forums along with Seabreeze, there are , to be sure, a few positive reviews based on personal experience, but they are conveniently ignored by many in the community , either because they doggedly stick to preconceived ideas. or because there are commercial interests involved and those who post negative comments may do so just because they have an axe to grind. ..( manufacturers, too, have their antennas on Forums, as a source of precious information. No wonder if they try to steer the windsurfers' opinions against possible (and cheaper ) competitors.

Kind of vicious circle. Probably very few bought (or tried) these minifoils, just because the " others" say that hey are not good ..The bad reputation keeps feeding and gaining strength on mere hearsay.

When I speak of "cheap" remarks, I really mean it: some on that thread went as far as insinuating that XYZ or the owner of FRP ( whom they suspect of being the same Russian individual behind FRP ) don't really have a PhD in engineering .

The contention was also made that , even if the supporters had a PhD , it would be irrelevant, because for them what really counts is experience in windsurfing..
Really? Theory and practice are intertwined : we certainly need a good mechanic to fix our car, but only an engineer can design its engine and improve its performance.

XYZ is also suspected of hiding a vested interest in selling the minifoils, hence he would be making misleading, if not false, claims, in order to push the sales.
It was perhaps inappropriate that XYZ should insinuate that Robby Naish faked the wind-speed in his videos, but he, too, has a vested interest in selling his product,, after all, yet nobody doubts his reliability and good faith. One weight too measures!

Come on, guys! Those who, like me are interested in these minifoils need much more than underhand innuendos or personal attacks against those who go against conventional wisdom. if they are to to be convinced that these fly foils are ineffective and a waste of money. They might well be so, but I need to have a consistent negative feed-back from people who have tried them and not just heard about them. which so far has not been the case.

Until then, the comments made by some windsurfers on this issue , on this platform or elsewhere, are not far from the arguments made in ages past by those who contended that the Earth cannot be round, because if you lay a spherical object like a ball on a perfectly flat surface, you see, it doesn't roll away.....

Before concluding, lest somebody think that I am a Russian just trying to defend two fellow country-men, let me say that I am not Russian, but Italian, born and raised there, but now living in North America.

Francone

I tried the foil and fin wing of the XYZ manufacturer. the foil and fin wing are not working fine. As for the reviews, XYZ sent its foie for free to athletes. The athletes tried the foil and threw it in the trash. Now the price of the XYZ foil is 3000 dollars. I think for that kind of money it's better to buy lokefoil, starboard, zfins, phantom, exploder.

The wing fin cannot work normally as the lifting force lifts the stern and the middle of the board sticks, which reduces the speed. I also tried his fin wing

it seems to me that XYZ is specifically creating a new theme here in a few months, for advertising.

If XYZ sends you his miracle foil for free. Then it makes sense to try it.

Thanks for your videos. They indeed raise suspicions that there might be foul play. The video comments are not very clear, though, at times outright unintelligible, because of the very shattered English. Also, I am not too clear about who manufactured the foils in question. Is it FRP Gear ( in the USA) or XYZ ? Or is FRP Gear ( dr Lunin) the same person as XYZ?
It the foil that broke in Russia is the FRP, U.S. made carbon foil advertised in the FRP site, it strikes me, because FRP has a full refund-return policy. I don't know the circumstances of the break-down of the foil in Russia. May be the refund was refused because of the owner's negligence or hazardous conditions in which the foil was used . ..I wouldn't expected to be refunded if it crashed while surfing on the Ocean near rocky cliffs in strong winds and choppy waters.
Anyway, as I stated in my reply to Subsonic, I was not thinking of buying the $ 3,000 FRP foil. Too expensive to take any risk. I was thinking, rather, of the FRP minifoils. They are much cheaper ( under $ 500 ) and Stepan confirmed to me that they carry a full refund warranty.


Take care

Francone

Select to expand quote

Francone said..

Take care

Francone

Francone, this is a colossal waste of your time and others. If you are interested in a mini-foil do everybody a favor: buy one, test it, and post the results. Maybe they help, but literally nobody with a solid reputation is producing one, and more than a few have tried. That should tell you something, but give it a try and report back!

Select to expand quote

ZeroVix said..

Francone said..

ZeroVix said..
What is your point? How are you going to help the foiling community? You have a lot of time on your hands. Just my 2 cents. Now close this thread.

You have the right to disagree, but you have to understand first, before sending anybody packing just because you don't even understand the point that is made.
Simply stated, on the thread I referred to ( which I am sure you didn't read because you only have your..2 cts..) there is too much hearsay and , at times, misinformation, as well bad mouthing and personal attacks on this issue . What I was getting at is that this is not the healthy discussion that a Forum should provide..
Regarding your question" how am I going to help the foilng community, " ,it is precisely by reminding people , especially YOU, that civility and open-mindedness are the building block of any constructive exchange.

You are now " ordering" (!) me to close this thread, in other words to shut up. This proves how right I was (and am ) in my comments. about civility and open mindedness
But then you only have 2 cts at your disposal. If these 2 cts are to be measured in terms intelligence, I think that what you'll ever be able to understand remains hopelessly limited...

Francone

Again, what value are you offering the wind foiling community? You seem to have deeper personal issues that we are not qualified to help you with. This is the wrong forum. Keep spending endless time on your rants, but until you offer anything else of value... you got the point. Ciao.

If you read my reply, I have answered very clearly in what sense I believe my comments can help the community , but you are asking the question again ! Either you did not understand my reply or you disagree with it. In this case you should perhaps explain why you disagree,, but probably you will not.
Explanations and clarifications, too, are an essential and valuable function of a Forum. More specifically, even when the subject matter of Forum is something as practical and down-to-earth as windsurfing,, it doesn't mean that all that there is to it is to explain how to tack and jibe or talk about equipment.
All this requires the use of language., which is not as precise as maths and , and inevitably leads to misunderstanding or calls for clarifications,....

As to me having " deep personal issues that we are not qualified to help you with..", WOW ! Grand words, but this time it is me who doesn't understand what you mean by personal issues. I gather from your English and the tone of your comments that by these words you are not making any psychological statements.
Anyway, let us leave it at that, lest we get mired in an area , like psychology or perhaps semantics that are totally outside the purview of a windsurfing Forum.
I hope, though, that you know what you mean by these grand words, and that you could, in the proper context, explain yourself more adequately than with a simple " shut up". Unfortunately, I am not too sure you can go beyond it...and even less that you can explain in English.. It would be too complicated for you...

Francone

The thing is Ittiandro, the reason there are no objective reviews of XYZ/FRP mini-foils most likely because nobody has bought one. This idea has been around since the 80's & it would be very surprising that nobody has successfully marketed it - if it was in fact a viable concept. I have no faith in the product or concept for multiple reasons. One of which is I believe no matter how brilliant the engineer, the development of a product must follow a certain process: 1)Sound theoretical basis. 2)Solid prototyping. 3)Collaborative feedback. 4)Final product design. 5,6,7...etc) Manufacturing, marketing sales etc... From what I can see Stepan/XYZ/FRP has none of these in place. Even if the theoretical basis were sound, he has not shown that he has incorporated any feedback from expert testers nor "real world" objective testing such as magazine test or various other ways this could be achieved. Though I do not possess Stepan's prestigious credentials I can tell you that you can't skimp on any of these steps if your are trying to design a useful product, & in many case #3 is the most important as often our theories are just that & don't work in the real world. If you disagree & would like to trial the concept then by all means, as the saying goes "Put your money where your mouth is" - purchase one & report back to us if you desire.

if you're genuinely interested in the frp gear mini foils Francone, I believe watching some of his YouTube videos might be the best/only way to get some unbiased info on them. I don't think the vids are really a great selling point for him either, but you can make your own mind up.


I don't think you'll find anyone that thinks enough of frp gear to actually buy his products here. Marketing isn't his strong point (I don't know if he really has any strong points to be honest). Best to buy and try for yourself.

Wolfgang Lessacher built such fin/foils, too. 20 and more years ago.
With the rise of the new foils he built 2017 newer versions of this old idea.
Sometime great looking ideas just don't work.





Resources: www.surf-forum.com

Select to expand quote

Francone said..

antonmik said..

Francone said..
I was going to post a few comments on and about a previous thread
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Windsurfing-Foiling-2018?page=9 .
This thread is now closed, so I'll do it now because this issue is by no means settled and also because it has recent and misleading ramifications on a French thread that feeds on the same hearsay ( www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=113208&sid=bf7a25af10697016cac2375d46c543bc&start=15) . They openly refer to Seabreeze in their comments.

The focus of the remarks ( and of the attacks ) on the previous thread was a certain XYZ defending the FRP Gear minifoils on the strength of his own experience,

Sadly, neither the tone nor the contents of the arguments raised in that thread against these minifoils went beyond raw innuendos and cheap personal attacks against XYZ, with nobody citing his own personal experience to corroborate the negative comments.

True , in iWindsurf for instance, one of my favorite Forums along with Seabreeze, there are , to be sure, a few positive reviews based on personal experience, but they are conveniently ignored by many in the community , either because they doggedly stick to preconceived ideas. or because there are commercial interests involved and those who post negative comments may do so just because they have an axe to grind. ..( manufacturers, too, have their antennas on Forums, as a source of precious information. No wonder if they try to steer the windsurfers' opinions against possible (and cheaper ) competitors.

Kind of vicious circle. Probably very few bought (or tried) these minifoils, just because the " others" say that hey are not good ..The bad reputation keeps feeding and gaining strength on mere hearsay.

When I speak of "cheap" remarks, I really mean it: some on that thread went as far as insinuating that XYZ or the owner of FRP ( whom they suspect of being the same Russian individual behind FRP ) don't really have a PhD in engineering .

The contention was also made that , even if the supporters had a PhD , it would be irrelevant, because for them what really counts is experience in windsurfing..
Really? Theory and practice are intertwined : we certainly need a good mechanic to fix our car, but only an engineer can design its engine and improve its performance.

XYZ is also suspected of hiding a vested interest in selling the minifoils, hence he would be making misleading, if not false, claims, in order to push the sales.
It was perhaps inappropriate that XYZ should insinuate that Robby Naish faked the wind-speed in his videos, but he, too, has a vested interest in selling his product,, after all, yet nobody doubts his reliability and good faith. One weight too measures!

Come on, guys! Those who, like me are interested in these minifoils need much more than underhand innuendos or personal attacks against those who go against conventional wisdom. if they are to to be convinced that these fly foils are ineffective and a waste of money. They might well be so, but I need to have a consistent negative feed-back from people who have tried them and not just heard about them. which so far has not been the case.

Until then, the comments made by some windsurfers on this issue , on this platform or elsewhere, are not far from the arguments made in ages past by those who contended that the Earth cannot be round, because if you lay a spherical object like a ball on a perfectly flat surface, you see, it doesn't roll away.....

Before concluding, lest somebody think that I am a Russian just trying to defend two fellow country-men, let me say that I am not Russian, but Italian, born and raised there, but now living in North America.

Francone

I tried the foil and fin wing of the XYZ manufacturer. the foil and fin wing are not working fine. As for the reviews, XYZ sent its foie for free to athletes. The athletes tried the foil and threw it in the trash. Now the price of the XYZ foil is 3000 dollars. I think for that kind of money it's better to buy lokefoil, starboard, zfins, phantom, exploder.

The wing fin cannot work normally as the lifting force lifts the stern and the middle of the board sticks, which reduces the speed. I also tried his fin wing

it seems to me that XYZ is specifically creating a new theme here in a few months, for advertising.

If XYZ sends you his miracle foil for free. Then it makes sense to try it.

Thanks for your videos. They indeed raise suspicions that there might be foul play. The video comments are not very clear, though, at times outright unintelligible, because of the very shattered English. Also, I am not too clear about who manufactured the foils in question. Is it FRP Gear ( in the USA) or XYZ ? Or is FRP Gear ( dr Lunin) the same person as XYZ?
It the foil that broke in Russia is the FRP, U.S. made carbon foil advertised in the FRP site, it strikes me, because FRP has a full refund-return policy. I don't know the circumstances of the break-down of the foil in Russia. May be the refund was refused because of the owner's negligence or hazardous conditions in which the foil was used . ..I wouldn't expected to be refunded if it crashed while surfing on the Ocean near rocky cliffs in strong winds and choppy waters.
Anyway, as I stated in my reply to Subsonic, I was not thinking of buying the $ 3,000 FRP foil. Too expensive to take any risk. I was thinking, rather, of the FRP minifoils. They are much cheaper ( under $ 500 ) and Stepan confirmed to me that they carry a full refund warranty.


Take care

Francone

I bought the frpegear foil from the USA. I didn't get all the money back because I sent the money 2 times. the first time in the fall (it took more than 150 days after receiving the goods) and the second time I sent money 150 days did not pass after receiving the goods. Paypal has buyer protection if 150 days have not passed.

I also tried mini foil. There is no Mini foil of any advantage. Take a formula and a big sail, and it will be faster and better than a mini foil.

the mini foil doesn't work. watch the video xyz the middle of the board presses the higher the speed and the spray flies from the middle. it turns out that the harm of the feed rises and the middle is strongly pressed against the water. Here's a photo if you don't believe me, I had a manta ray leg file and I asked xyz to send a wing to test his idea. I checked the board stuck while moving. In order for the mini foil to work, it is necessary to change the box of the board and move it forward.