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LeeD said..
In my 36 years of windsurfing in the San Francisco Bay, the best and most consistent full planing lay down jiber I've seen also stepped out of both straps while entering a full speed jibe.
My g/f for the past 9 years does this on her own, and makes an average of 95% of her jibes.

That's great to hear. Good to know I'm not the only one jybing this way.

Best part is, that 190 lbs dude rode a 75 liter board 95% of his days, and used sails from 2.8 thru 5.3

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MagicRide said..
Your not quite getting the concept here. When my forward foot is in the front strap, it's their for a few seconds. During that time, the front knee is slightly twisting as the rear foot gets out of the rear strap and moves to the low side to initiate the carve. The front knee also wants to go over past the front toe in order to lean over and help with the carve which is also a dangerous position for the knee. Can cause over rotation issues from what I understand. That position is enough to aggravate my knee due to the pressure of that position. Tried many times with the front foot in strap and it just doesn't work for me. So when I take the front foot out, no more pressure on the front knee. I hope I explained it a little better for you. But beside the fact, I was hoping this video could show you guys if I should learn to foil strapless or not based on my jybing stance and foot position.

You're not exactly the first person to take both feet out of the straps for a jibe. There are others who at some point tweaked their knee during a jibe (often in a crash) and the decided to do the same. There's a gazillion ways to jibe that all work. Nothing cooler than seeing Whitey dance around the mast after ducking the sail, and planing out of it cleaner than many windsurfers ever will. I have done a few jibes where the front toe steps to the middle of the board first; their biggest drawback is if you jibe in big chop, and your foot bounces around.

I was pointing out a few technical problems you have with your jibe. If the feet point sideways like they do in your jibes, hitting any bit of chop during a jibe will cause issues - both for your knees and for your stability. When your back foot steps, your weight is on the front foot, which will slow your board down. That causes sideways pressure on your knee - uncomfortable and prone to crashes. You found one possible solution, but you also end up loosing most of your speed. The common recommendations on how to jibe without stressing the knee are different, and make coming out with speed easier. But I understand that you're not looking for jibe recommendations.

As for foiling, don't base the decision about straps on your jibes. Foiling jibes are not easy; I know several very good windsurfers who can't do them, even though they'll plane through jibes on windsurf gear in just about any condition. Straps will play a much bigger role in getting up and keeping the flight stable. Tacks should be much easier for turning around on a Dialer 130, which has plenty of volume in front.

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boardsurfr said..

MagicRide said..
Your not quite getting the concept here. When my forward foot is in the front strap, it's their for a few seconds. During that time, the front knee is slightly twisting as the rear foot gets out of the rear strap and moves to the low side to initiate the carve. The front knee also wants to go over past the front toe in order to lean over and help with the carve which is also a dangerous position for the knee. Can cause over rotation issues from what I understand. That position is enough to aggravate my knee due to the pressure of that position. Tried many times with the front foot in strap and it just doesn't work for me. So when I take the front foot out, no more pressure on the front knee. I hope I explained it a little better for you. But beside the fact, I was hoping this video could show you guys if I should learn to foil strapless or not based on my jybing stance and foot position.

You're not exactly the first person to take both feet out of the straps for a jibe. There are others who at some point tweaked their knee during a jibe (often in a crash) and the decided to do the same. There's a gazillion ways to jibe that all work. Nothing cooler than seeing Whitey dance around the mast after ducking the sail, and planing out of it cleaner than many windsurfers ever will. I have done a few jibes where the front toe steps to the middle of the board first; their biggest drawback is if you jibe in big chop, and your foot bounces around.

I was pointing out a few technical problems you have with your jibe. If the feet point sideways like they do in your jibes, hitting any bit of chop during a jibe will cause issues - both for your knees and for your stability. When your back foot steps, your weight is on the front foot, which will slow your board down. That causes sideways pressure on your knee - uncomfortable and prone to crashes. You found one possible solution, but you also end up loosing most of your speed. The common recommendations on how to jibe without stressing the knee are different, and make coming out with speed easier. But I understand that you're not looking for jibe recommendations.

As for foiling, don't base the decision about straps on your jibes. Foiling jibes are not easy; I know several very good windsurfers who can't do them, even though they'll plane through jibes on windsurf gear in just about any condition. Straps will play a much bigger role in getting up and keeping the flight stable. Tacks should be much easier for turning around on a Dialer 130, which has plenty of volume in front.

I actually put more pressure on my back foot when I jybe, cuz I can feel it when jybing, but it doesn't bother me at all. Yes, I do loose board speed jybing this way. The windier it gets, the more I lean towards the tail in the jybe. I also get bumped off in big chop at times, but not that often. I do appreciate input by the way. There's always room to learn

Select to expand quote

MagicRide said..

boardsurfr said..

MagicRide said..
Your not quite getting the concept here. When my forward foot is in the front strap, it's their for a few seconds. During that time, the front knee is slightly twisting as the rear foot gets out of the rear strap and moves to the low side to initiate the carve. The front knee also wants to go over past the front toe in order to lean over and help with the carve which is also a dangerous position for the knee. Can cause over rotation issues from what I understand. That position is enough to aggravate my knee due to the pressure of that position. Tried many times with the front foot in strap and it just doesn't work for me. So when I take the front foot out, no more pressure on the front knee. I hope I explained it a little better for you. But beside the fact, I was hoping this video could show you guys if I should learn to foil strapless or not based on my jybing stance and foot position.

You're not exactly the first person to take both feet out of the straps for a jibe. There are others who at some point tweaked their knee during a jibe (often in a crash) and the decided to do the same. There's a gazillion ways to jibe that all work. Nothing cooler than seeing Whitey dance around the mast after ducking the sail, and planing out of it cleaner than many windsurfers ever will. I have done a few jibes where the front toe steps to the middle of the board first; their biggest drawback is if you jibe in big chop, and your foot bounces around.

I was pointing out a few technical problems you have with your jibe. If the feet point sideways like they do in your jibes, hitting any bit of chop during a jibe will cause issues - both for your knees and for your stability. When your back foot steps, your weight is on the front foot, which will slow your board down. That causes sideways pressure on your knee - uncomfortable and prone to crashes. You found one possible solution, but you also end up loosing most of your speed. The common recommendations on how to jibe without stressing the knee are different, and make coming out with speed easier. But I understand that you're not looking for jibe recommendations.

As for foiling, don't base the decision about straps on your jibes. Foiling jibes are not easy; I know several very good windsurfers who can't do them, even though they'll plane through jibes on windsurf gear in just about any condition. Straps will play a much bigger role in getting up and keeping the flight stable. Tacks should be much easier for turning around on a Dialer 130, which has plenty of volume in front.

I actually put more pressure on my back foot when I jybe, cuz I can feel it when jybing, but it doesn't bother me at all. Yes, I do loose board speed jybing this way. The windier it gets, the more I lean towards the tail in the jybe. I also get bumped off in big chop at times, but not that often. I do appreciate input by the way. There's always room to learn

Yes, I have a hard time imagining jibing in heavy chop this way - let alone planing out. Wow. Kudos if you can make it work! .. bit dificult to tell given this, but as boardsurfr says there are other issues with your jibes. That said probably shouldn't influence your foil decisions...

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gorgesailor said..

MagicRide said..

boardsurfr said..

MagicRide said..
Your not quite getting the concept here. When my forward foot is in the front strap, it's their for a few seconds. During that time, the front knee is slightly twisting as the rear foot gets out of the rear strap and moves to the low side to initiate the carve. The front knee also wants to go over past the front toe in order to lean over and help with the carve which is also a dangerous position for the knee. Can cause over rotation issues from what I understand. That position is enough to aggravate my knee due to the pressure of that position. Tried many times with the front foot in strap and it just doesn't work for me. So when I take the front foot out, no more pressure on the front knee. I hope I explained it a little better for you. But beside the fact, I was hoping this video could show you guys if I should learn to foil strapless or not based on my jybing stance and foot position.

You're not exactly the first person to take both feet out of the straps for a jibe. There are others who at some point tweaked their knee during a jibe (often in a crash) and the decided to do the same. There's a gazillion ways to jibe that all work. Nothing cooler than seeing Whitey dance around the mast after ducking the sail, and planing out of it cleaner than many windsurfers ever will. I have done a few jibes where the front toe steps to the middle of the board first; their biggest drawback is if you jibe in big chop, and your foot bounces around.

I was pointing out a few technical problems you have with your jibe. If the feet point sideways like they do in your jibes, hitting any bit of chop during a jibe will cause issues - both for your knees and for your stability. When your back foot steps, your weight is on the front foot, which will slow your board down. That causes sideways pressure on your knee - uncomfortable and prone to crashes. You found one possible solution, but you also end up loosing most of your speed. The common recommendations on how to jibe without stressing the knee are different, and make coming out with speed easier. But I understand that you're not looking for jibe recommendations.

As for foiling, don't base the decision about straps on your jibes. Foiling jibes are not easy; I know several very good windsurfers who can't do them, even though they'll plane through jibes on windsurf gear in just about any condition. Straps will play a much bigger role in getting up and keeping the flight stable. Tacks should be much easier for turning around on a Dialer 130, which has plenty of volume in front.

I actually put more pressure on my back foot when I jybe, cuz I can feel it when jybing, but it doesn't bother me at all. Yes, I do loose board speed jybing this way. The windier it gets, the more I lean towards the tail in the jybe. I also get bumped off in big chop at times, but not that often. I do appreciate input by the way. There's always room to learn

Yes, I have a hard time imagining jibing in heavy chop this way - let alone planing out. Wow. Kudos if you can make it work! .. bit dificult to tell given this, but as boardsurfr says there are other issues with your jibes. That said probably shouldn't influence your foil decisions...

I'm interested in your input on some of my jybing issues that you see?

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MagicRide said..
I may consider learning strapless. That way I can plant my feet on the board more freely, because when I learn to ride on foil, taking my front foot out of the strap and moving my foot to center like I do on my traditional board may be pushing the limits for balance when on foil. Been reading more and more about sailors wind foiling strapless.

Strapless or not - if you take your front foot and move it forward like your slapper jibe, you may jibe but it won't be a foiling jibe. (Nothing wrong with that, btw). When my overpowered skills were less confident, that's how I survived. I'd take out my front foot and place it forward in an attempt to keep the board on the water. Didn't always work as planing in choppy water with the front foot out of the strap let to a couple of epic catapults.

Just a comment from an internet stranger, when you bend your knees on your jibes, you aren't really bending the ankles which is why your heel isn't really lifting off the board. Lifting the heels indicates that you are placing forward pressure on the rails, board and mast base which helps keep the rail in the water and the board planing through the jibe. (You can't lift your heels if you are leaning back even when you think you are "bending zee nees").

Here's a pic that may help (or not).

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MagicRide said..

gorgesailor said..

MagicRide said..

boardsurfr said..

MagicRide said..
Your not quite getting the concept here. When my forward foot is in the front strap, it's their for a few seconds. During that time, the front knee is slightly twisting as the rear foot gets out of the rear strap and moves to the low side to initiate the carve. The front knee also wants to go over past the front toe in order to lean over and help with the carve which is also a dangerous position for the knee. Can cause over rotation issues from what I understand. That position is enough to aggravate my knee due to the pressure of that position. Tried many times with the front foot in strap and it just doesn't work for me. So when I take the front foot out, no more pressure on the front knee. I hope I explained it a little better for you. But beside the fact, I was hoping this video could show you guys if I should learn to foil strapless or not based on my jybing stance and foot position.

You're not exactly the first person to take both feet out of the straps for a jibe. There are others who at some point tweaked their knee during a jibe (often in a crash) and the decided to do the same. There's a gazillion ways to jibe that all work. Nothing cooler than seeing Whitey dance around the mast after ducking the sail, and planing out of it cleaner than many windsurfers ever will. I have done a few jibes where the front toe steps to the middle of the board first; their biggest drawback is if you jibe in big chop, and your foot bounces around.

I was pointing out a few technical problems you have with your jibe. If the feet point sideways like they do in your jibes, hitting any bit of chop during a jibe will cause issues - both for your knees and for your stability. When your back foot steps, your weight is on the front foot, which will slow your board down. That causes sideways pressure on your knee - uncomfortable and prone to crashes. You found one possible solution, but you also end up loosing most of your speed. The common recommendations on how to jibe without stressing the knee are different, and make coming out with speed easier. But I understand that you're not looking for jibe recommendations.

As for foiling, don't base the decision about straps on your jibes. Foiling jibes are not easy; I know several very good windsurfers who can't do them, even though they'll plane through jibes on windsurf gear in just about any condition. Straps will play a much bigger role in getting up and keeping the flight stable. Tacks should be much easier for turning around on a Dialer 130, which has plenty of volume in front.

I actually put more pressure on my back foot when I jybe, cuz I can feel it when jybing, but it doesn't bother me at all. Yes, I do loose board speed jybing this way. The windier it gets, the more I lean towards the tail in the jybe. I also get bumped off in big chop at times, but not that often. I do appreciate input by the way. There's always room to learn

Yes, I have a hard time imagining jibing in heavy chop this way - let alone planing out. Wow. Kudos if you can make it work! .. bit dificult to tell given this, but as boardsurfr says there are other issues with your jibes. That said probably shouldn't influence your foil decisions...

I'm interested in your input on some of my jybing issues that you see?

I'm finding it really difficult without referencing footstraps! ... One thing that may help your exit speed is to flip earlier & keep the rig in front of you during the flip. This will allow you to get the sail powered up on the new tack sooner, & keep you from rounding up as you do in the vid.

My port Jybes seem more smooth that my starboard jybes. You can tell I don't round up at all on the port jybes, but I do often on the starboard ones. Have to focus on flip timing. Thx!

So that's interesting!! in the pic, when Paducah is jybing and his board is close to touching the water, could I give it more forward foot pressure to get the board back on water, and get out of the foot straps, then jybe it? Can the foil board actually be planed on water without lifting up on foil and be controlled that way through a jybe with proper foot pressure?

Yes, that is how everyone jibes their foils from the first day.
Then they try foiling jibes, the next step.

I already feel like I'm learning to foil, by learning through you all without even being on the water yet. Feels like Chalk talk and classroom study for now then I'll be on the water trying everything I learned here.

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MagicRide said..
My port Jybes seem more smooth that my starboard jybes. You can tell I don't round up at all on the port jybes, but I do often on the starboard ones. Have to focus on flip timing. Thx!

So that's interesting!! in the pic, when Paducah is jybing and his board is close to touching the water, could I give it more forward foot pressure to get the board back on water, and get out of the foot straps, then jybe it? Can the foil board actually be planed on water without lifting up on foil and be controlled that way through a jybe with proper foot pressure?

I'm not as low as it looks in the pic as there is a bit of chop. But, still not the most photogenic jibe, I'll admit. I was ventilating a bit on that side that day and so I was trying to ride a bit lower through the jibes. (That's my excuse, anyway)

As LeeD said, that's pretty much the progression we all do. Here's a good article with some visuals.

www.windfoilzone.com/post/windfoil-jibe-how-to-master-a-jibe-on-a-foil-in-3-easy-steps

PS - a good way to help with the "rounding up" is to focus your eyes on the downwind exit. Ideally, the jibe is a 120ish not 180 degree turn. "Where you look is where you go." If you exit properly going in the right direction, timing the sail flip isn't as critical as you'll be more likely to be still carrying speed.

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Paducah said..

MagicRide said..
My port Jybes seem more smooth that my starboard jybes. You can tell I don't round up at all on the port jybes, but I do often on the starboard ones. Have to focus on flip timing. Thx!

So that's interesting!! in the pic, when Paducah is jybing and his board is close to touching the water, could I give it more forward foot pressure to get the board back on water, and get out of the foot straps, then jybe it? Can the foil board actually be planed on water without lifting up on foil and be controlled that way through a jybe with proper foot pressure?

I'm not as low as it looks in the pic as there is a bit of chop. But, still not the most photogenic jibe, I'll admit. I was ventilating a bit on that side that day and so I was trying to ride a bit lower through the jibes. (That's my excuse, anyway)

As LeeD said, that's pretty much the progression we all do. Here's a good article with some visuals.

www.windfoilzone.com/post/windfoil-jibe-how-to-master-a-jibe-on-a-foil-in-3-easy-steps

PS - a good way to help with the "rounding up" is to focus your eyes on the downwind exit. Ideally, the jibe is a 120ish not 180 degree turn. "Where you look is where you go." If you exit properly going in the right direction, timing the sail flip isn't as critical as you'll be more likely to be still carrying speed.

Very helpful link here! This paints a great picture for getting started and progressing.

Thx!