When I started foiling used my Aerotech FreeSpeed sails (9.0, 8.0, 7.2, 5.8) since I already had them, and they have worked great for lower wind ranges because they really grab the wind. But when searching for a sail smaller than my 5.8 for 20 knots and up, listened to advice here on the sail to get and ended up with the Aerotech Phantom 4.5, a crossover wave sail. Have not used it since last Winter/Spring, but got out yesterday and was just amazed how easy it was to use "hooked-in" with short 23.5" lines in very gusty conditions (12-14 with peaks ~15-18+ knots) with my AFS W95 foil and F770 cm2 wing. Andy Brandt recommended wave sails for foiling because of their ON/OFF power, and that really is the case, so easy to have a level flight in really gusty conditions, it was kinda surreal because the water was just getting torn up, but it just took slight adjustments in sheeting to handle the peak gusts, and that made being hooked-in comfortable. I know many here use dedicated foiling sails, but most of those have cams and I just do not want to deal with cams.

Now the Phantom 4.5 is kinda touchy when rigging (extra outhaul tension compared to FreeSpeeds) and lower batten needs just the right amount of tension to rotate, but realized yesterday I can test batten rotation by just holding sail by boom on land, before attaching to the board.

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Sandman1221 said.. ... with short 23.5" lines in very gusty conditions (12-14 with peaks ~15-18+ knots)...

Yes, wave/freewave/freestyle sails in smaller sizes can make perfectly suitable foiling sails. The boom lengths are short enough that the stability offered by cams or higher batten counts matters much less. Glad you found a sail that meets your needs.

I'm just a random guy on the internet but you should consider that your very short harness lines are a contributing reason why you think 12-18+ is "very gusty". For many of us, that's just another day on the water. If you regularly had to deal with 10-25+, like some of us endure, you'd appreciate, as azymuth describes, getting the rig away from your body.

Again, glad you have a sail that you like.

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Paducah said..

Sandman1221 said.. ... with short 23.5" lines in very gusty conditions (12-14 with peaks ~15-18+ knots)...

Yes, wave/freewave/freestyle sails in smaller sizes can make perfectly suitable foiling sails. The boom lengths are short enough that the stability offered by cams or higher batten counts matters much less. Glad you found a sail that meets your needs.

I'm just a random guy on the internet but you should consider that your very short harness lines are a contributing reason why you think 12-18+ is "very gusty". For many of us, that's just another day on the water. If you regularly had to deal with 10-25+, like some of us endure, you'd appreciate, as azymuth describes, getting the rig away from your body.

Again, glad you have a sail that you like.

I have been out in 20-25 and 25-30 with the Phantom 4.5 and AFS W95 with S670 wing last Winter, and was afraid to hook in, but that was due to inexperience, because what I noticed even then was how easy it was to handle the gusts. Now 23.5" lines on the Phantom 4.5 are effectively a little longer because I set the boom about 3" lower from my preferred spot in order to keep the batten off of the boom head.

There are at least two ways to handle gusts, while staying on course, 1) sheet out, 2) lean out while pushing board away with feet. The short lines make leaning out a very effective way to cut power to the sail. But it really helps to have a wing sized for the conditions, I think you and others tend to use larger wings in high winds, versus say a S670 cm2 wing, and the larger wings like a F1080 cm2 are definitely harder to control and so require more leverage over the sail which longer lines give, so I can see why you would want long lines.

Phantoms have been good foiling sails. I had Cuben Phantoms in 6.2 and 6.8. I just plain wore them out and replaced them with Flyers. The Cuben fiber was very light weight, but the overall durability of the glued sail structure was not very good. (Same for the Oceanics with kevlar.)

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segler said..
Phantoms have been good foiling sails. I had Cuben Phantoms in 6.2 and 6.8. I just plain wore them out and replaced them with Flyers. The Cuben fiber was very light weight, but the overall durability of the glued sail structure was not very good. (Same for the Oceanics with kevlar.)

Aerotech "cuban" Phantom?, have never heard of one.

I should have said the 23.5" lines were forward, to effectively replace your front arm, Andy Brandt style. Now recently I did try moving the short harness lines back towards where you put them to have a balanced sail as in windsurfing, and then the kit became very sensitive to gusts and it was hard to not get overpowered, so I moved them back forward.

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Sandman1221 said..

segler said..
Phantoms have been good foiling sails. I had Cuben Phantoms in 6.2 and 6.8. I just plain wore them out and replaced them with Flyers. The Cuben fiber was very light weight, but the overall durability of the glued sail structure was not very good. (Same for the Oceanics with kevlar.)

Aerotech "cuban" Phantom?, have never heard of one.

Cuben Fabric (or Cubic) is now more usually referred to as Dyneema Reinforced Fabric - high modulus reinforcement allowing the use of much lighter sail fabrics. These could be bonded along certain seams, rather than stitched, which reduced weight even more. Awesome for really big yachting sails but much tougher given the durability challenges of our sport.

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Awalkspoiled said..

Sandman1221 said..

segler said..
Phantoms have been good foiling sails. I had Cuben Phantoms in 6.2 and 6.8. I just plain wore them out and replaced them with Flyers. The Cuben fiber was very light weight, but the overall durability of the glued sail structure was not very good. (Same for the Oceanics with kevlar.)

Aerotech "cuban" Phantom?, have never heard of one.

Cuben Fabric (or Cubic) is now more usually referred to as Dyneema Reinforced Fabric - high modulus reinforcement allowing the use of much lighter sail fabrics. These could be bonded along certain seams, rather than stitched, which reduced weight even more. Awesome for really big yachting sails but much tougher given the durability challenges of our sport.

Yeah, I know what cuban fiber is!, but no way an Aerotech Phantom was made with it! Backpacking tents made with cuban fiber are 3X the price.

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Sandman1221 said..
... Yeah, I know what cuban fiber is!, but no way an Aerotech Phantom was made with it! Backpacking tents made with cuban fiber are 3X the price.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Cuben-Fibre-Sails

No doubt Mr Brandt is an effective teacher but you are clinging to his advice on how to start out foiling as you advance to more intermediate skills. I've tried to suggest how you might extend your sailing range with the proper set up of harness lines. Half measures will get half results or worse.
At 20 kg less than you, I'm using similar size sails and bigger foil wings. The reason I use a bigger wing is because of the "very gusty conditions" that are quite the norm here. It enables me to stay foiling through jibes with a small sail in 10-12 kt lulls and stay on foil 15-30 min or more at a time. I do not find that the bigger wing presents issues in the gusts as a) with balanced harness lines, it's easy to scoot upwind or b) I send it deep to bleed power and enjoy carving and surfing the swell. Because I enjoy the downwind bits so much, having balanced lines is the only way I can sail the mile plus back upwind, rinse and repeat.
There's a third, often most effective and preferable way to control power: as Sam Ross describes, hinging at the waist. TintinGwen also says something like "assuming the frog position". It lowers the CofG and forces your body weight down on the boom rather than just out. If you see pics of Nico Goyard going fast, that's the position, which also works well for freeriding. The only way to get that position is to have longer lines.
I don't know if any of this will actually resonate with you although I hope it will. Most of it is shared so that someone else at your stage might find some of it useful.

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Paducah said..

Sandman1221 said..
... Yeah, I know what cuban fiber is!, but no way an Aerotech Phantom was made with it! Backpacking tents made with cuban fiber are 3X the price.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Cuben-Fibre-Sails

No doubt Mr Brandt is an effective teacher but you are clinging to his advice on how to start out foiling as you advance to more intermediate skills. I've tried to suggest how you might extend your sailing range with the proper set up of harness lines. Half measures will get half results or worse.
At 20 kg less than you, I'm using similar size sails and bigger foil wings. The reason I use a bigger wing is because of the "very gusty conditions" that are quite the norm here. It enables me to stay foiling through jibes with a small sail in 10-12 kt lulls and stay on foil 15-30 min or more at a time. I do not find that the bigger wing presents issues in the gusts as a) with balanced harness lines, it's easy to scoot upwind or b) I send it deep to bleed power and enjoy carving and surfing the swell. Because I enjoy the downwind bits so much, having balanced lines is the only way I can sail the mile plus back upwind, rinse and repeat.
There's a third, often most effective and preferable way to control power: as Sam Ross describes, hinging at the waist. TintinGwen also says something like "assuming the frog position". It lowers the CofG and forces your body weight down on the boom rather than just out. If you see pics of Nico Goyard going fast, that's the position, which also works well for freeriding. The only way to get that position is to have longer lines.
I don't know if any of this will actually resonate with you although I hope it will. Most of it is shared so that someone else at your stage might find some of it useful.

Short lines and wing/sail combos appropriate for the conditions work for me with a freeride foil and sails. Nico is a professional World Champion on race equipment, I guess if people want to go professional then your advice should be great!, but I am sure Nico is using much smaller wings than you are (~340 cm2 in 30 knots), and has no problem doing foiling gybes, I am guessing that you are still using the F1080 cm2 wing in those conditions, maybe it is time for a lesson with Andy? But, hey if you like going slow that is fine too

As for the frog stance, I use that in light winds to get body off the board/foil, in high winds just leaning out and pushing board away with feet works great to deal with gusts on a freeride sail/wing combo appropriate for the conditions.

Yes, for a couple years Aerotech made Cuben fiber versions of the Phantom sails as a light weight pro upgrade. I have two of them, a 6.2 and 6.8. I bought them from an Aerotech team rider. They are very light, yes, but not as durable.

When I foiled with them at Scenic View one day, Britt V did a double-take. He had never seen one, but had heard of them.

Yes, the spelling is Cuben with an e, not an a.

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Sandman1221 said..... But, hey if you like going slow that is fine too

Yeah, got it. My advice only applies to race gear but since I don't ride faster gear like you do my advice doesn't apply. Makes total sense.

I like going "slow" when it's appropriate for the conditions. No sense in outrunning the swell. One of the two of us has raced. I'm guessing it's not you in this pic on the foil. I'm admittedly slow but I do put myself out there to see what I can learn from those better than me. As I suspected, you are way too good to take anything from my comments. I do hope they are helpful to someone else. Before I get any technique tips from Andy on this pic, we're barely foiling just trying to get out to the course.

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segler said..
Yes, for a couple years Aerotech made Cuben fiber versions of the Phantom sails as a light weight pro upgrade. I have two of them, a 6.2 and 6.8. I bought them from an Aerotech team rider. They are very light, yes, but not as durable.

When I foiled with them at Scenic View one day, Britt V did a double-take. He had never seen one, but had heard of them.

Yes, the spelling is Cuben with an e, not an a.

Wow, interesting, thought you were losing it, but knew better, so asked you! And yeah, Cuban, got it, thanks.

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Paducah said..

Sandman1221 said..... But, hey if you like going slow that is fine too

Yeah, got it. My advice only applies to race gear but since I don't ride faster gear like you do my advice doesn't apply. Makes total sense.

I like going "slow" when it's appropriate for the conditions. No sense in outrunning the swell. One of the two of us has raced. I'm guessing it's not you in this pic on the foil. I'm admittedly slow but I do put myself out there to see what I can learn from those better than me. As I suspected, you are way too good to take anything from my comments. I do hope they are helpful to someone else. Before I get any technique tips from Andy on this pic, we're barely foiling just trying to get out to the course.

Hey, you can go slow on any gear, race included! Lots of different foiling styles, I am just describing how I foil, works for me, and that is all that really matters

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Sandman1221 said..

Paducah said..

Sandman1221 said..... But, hey if you like going slow that is fine too

Yeah, got it. My advice only applies to race gear but since I don't ride faster gear like you do my advice doesn't apply. Makes total sense.

I like going "slow" when it's appropriate for the conditions. No sense in outrunning the swell. One of the two of us has raced. I'm guessing it's not you in this pic on the foil. I'm admittedly slow but I do put myself out there to see what I can learn from those better than me. As I suspected, you are way too good to take anything from my comments. I do hope they are helpful to someone else. Before I get any technique tips from Andy on this pic, we're barely foiling just trying to get out to the course.

Hey, you can go slow on any gear, race included! Lots of different foiling styles, I am just describing how I foil, works for me, and that is all that really matters

Except it doesn't work for you because you can't gybe and your gear overpowers you in mild conditions.

I just remember the early days when I only had the F1080 wing and my smallest sail was the FreeSpeed 5.8, in 15-20+ knots it was a heart racing thrill ride for sure, but now it is so nice to be able to handle those conditions with ease, and if I want a thrill can just lean over and head hard upwind for arching breaches in the gusts that I land smoothly with no loss in speed!

The wind used to control me, but now with an appropriately sized sail and wing for the conditions, I have control of the wind.