Yeah all the contributors to the tuttle box rant thread here before just rolled their eyes at my title hahaha

I want to windsurf foil. Cheap. So, I will buy a windsurf foil with tuttle head cheap secondhand, maybe make some bigger wings, whatever.
If I do so, I'm guessing they will all have a proper Deep Tuttle head cos its for windsurfing?

I'm going to make a DT box and from the previous info (on the youchoob) it appears a proper windsurf DT box is ideal as the silly ones made with the in-between-sized head will also fit. Is that true?

Then next questions is I have a box that I think is GoFoil, it is DT and has equal depth of 70mm (or a bit less) all along. What is that box?
I'm asking as I will keep it for a customer, but will duplicate it if it is good for windsurf foils.

(No track suggestions please as I will probably mount tracks also. Just the cheap foils I've seen are DT and also I want to may a mould for DT boxes as I will use it for others)

Cheers

I installed a Go Foil box in my formula board. At first I thought it wasn't deep enough but it was rock solid for my F4 race foil which is a DT.

Yep, other tuttle foils will fit the DT (they need to have a flange if they're not deep tuttle though. theres a lot more up pressure on a foil, especially on the front of the tuttle box/head)


The DT box you've got with a parallel top will suit race foils more than anything else. In all honesty, starboard race foils are the only ones i've seen that have the parallel top to suit that box. I'm sure there are others, just not seen them in WA. All of the foil race boards i've seen have that box in them though.

Unless it is billed as "powerbox" all 2-bolt boxes are tuttle or deep tuttle. The original tuttle design specifies inside dimensions and allows for variable heights.

What the board manufacturers vary is the top slope and depth of the inside, still complying with the tuttle design. Manufacturers have messed around with this in order to induce foilers to buy their foils, matched board and foil in the same brand. That's good for them, but a bit problematic for us if we want to mix and match board and foil brands.

The only reliable to way to tell if a given foil will fit into a given board is to actually test-fit it.

I have managed to make a Fanatic Stingray work just fine with DT foils from AFS, Slingshot, LP, and Moses. I have not tried Starboard iQ.

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Mark _australia said..

I want to windsurf foil.

Nothing much to add here, other than welcome to the club and make sure you get a foil with a long fuselage (eg not the NP pinkie) and most people seem to progress better with mediumsized free ride foil wings. Once you have the basics down eg gybing then you can decide if you want to stay on the freeride path or go to the smaller faster race wings

OK so the picture I'm getting is I should build a flat top (equal depth front to rear) Deep Tuttle box, so as have the best chance of the most number of foils fitting.
?

Get foil first, THEN build the box to match it's depth.

Thanks Lee

Its not just for me, its to be able to produce a box to suit the most customers. So back to my question......

Some Tuttle box foils are deep, some medium, some medium deep....all different.
But side, front, and back are similar. Depth varies.
I have seen diff in Slingshot, Naish, Moses, NP, PowerPlate, and RRD.

Deep box, if you choose a shallower head, needs the space filled with waterproof foam, so there is no space, according to MikeZ and other racers, when using long foil masts.
70cm and shorter masts matter much less.

Most board builders just buy a $30 black plastic Tuttle box and epoxy a 4" surrounding hi dense cassette around it.
They retail at $100 at most supply stores.

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LeeD said..
Most board builders just buy a $30 black plastic Tuttle box and epoxy a 4" surrounding hi dense cassette around it.
They retail at $100 at most supply stores.

I know two who fab their own with lots of glass and carbon. Both do a lot of foil builds and could have used Chinook hardware if it suited them.

Kinetic told me they waaay over built their all carbon boxes and they don't fail even on formula boards and 85 cm fins. Even hitting bottom, the box rips out, but is fully intact.
I got one in the garage...no plastic, just green glass bond, carbon 4 layers, 2 more glass, and hi dense.

Make your own....cheaper.
Why buy plastic and still wrap it in 4 carbon layers?

www.sanded.com.au/collections/surfboard-fin-system/products/foil-tuttle-box

^^ Hi John that's a confusing description lol - is it actually a DT you sell, but pictured is a normal tuttle?

That's what we call Chinook plastic box. Comes in power also.
Resin, chopped glass, and plastic mix.
Wrap it with 2 layers bonding fiberglass, then 2-4 layers of carbon for break strength, then epoxy to full depth Airex or Divinecell 4" all around the plastic box.

It is fully too deep tuttle, flow thru unlimited depth. You set depth with board thickness and fiberglass cap.

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LeeD said..
That's what we call Chinook plastic box. Comes in power also.
Resin, chopped glass, and plastic mix.
Wrap it with 2 layers bonding fiberglass, then 2-4 layers of carbon for break strength, then epoxy to full depth Airex or Divinecell 4" all around the plastic box.

Thanks again Lee I do know a Chinook box when I see one and how to install one. My last 50 installs went just fine.

Wasn't it you who said above
" Make your own....cheaper. Why buy plastic and still wrap it in 4 carbon layers? "

I'm going to make a plug to produce carbon DT boxes, and just want to know what is best design for a WS board so MOST foils will fit. Not a lesson in Chinook thanks.

My apology. You seemed confused.
Making from scratch is easy and inexpensive for any board builder.

I would go with the DT - I am no expert but you could also make simple spacers to go with the shorter heads but you cannot really go the other way neatly. I use Starboard stuff so I am coming from a one-sided look at life as far as equipment goes.

Just looking at a video on the Phantom site and it looks like they assume the box is as deep in the back as front even if they don't use that shape on their mast head. As they build their own boards, too, worth noting. Around 1:16 in the video.

www.phantom-windsurfing.com/settings

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Paducah said..
Just looking at a video on the Phantom site and it looks like they assume the box is as deep in the back as front even if they don't use that shape on their mast head. As they build their own boards, too, worth noting. Around 1:16 in the video.

www.phantom-windsurfing.com/settings

Man that's a nice looking setup.

Why do all of that back and front stuff? Just make the box run from the bottom deck to the top deck, and then skin over the top with plenty of glass and carbon. That's what most formula boards used to do (but not the ones with the "chimneys").

So, if your board is thick enough in the tail, the box is really deep, and every tuttle foil out there will fit. No, people, you do NOT need to fill in the empty inside top of the gap between the top of the foil fitting and the inside roof of the box. It does not add anything to the strength or alignment of the assembly. So what if you get a little water in there. No big deal. Formula boards have had this for many years.

When I was formula racing (in an earlier life), I went through a dozen models of F2, Starboard, and Mike's Lab formula boards. No chimneys in any of them. Nice deep tuttle boxes with the roofs right under the top skin. I still use two models of Mike's Lab formula boards for foiling.

What is critically important is to fit the foil top into the box to the point where the front and back rounded tapers are fully seated with zero movement. That, and that alone, is where the for and aft foil cantilever loads are carried.

As I said I am no expert. However, the foil TB is a different concept. the idea is to seat the head of the mast against the roof of the box with no space - in fact, nipping it up so it is tight is the idea. There is a reason that the formula box is not used for foil - it not purpose-built, the stresses on the box from a fin a not the same as a foil. I can agree if you are using a formula board for foiling do not put a spacer on top of the foil head it will eventually lift the deck near the screws.

Not sure if Tillo, MikeZ, Xavier, and F4 are wrong.
They attach top of tuttle base to top of tuttle box with hi dense water proof Airex or devinicel.

My 2 cents: I'd take the dimensions of the Starboard race masts. Thats pretty much the deepest foilheads go, and most racing foil producers use that same measurements. I dont know the measurements though, you might be able to find them on the net or ask a fellow forum member! The racefoils would be able to seat with the head making maximum contact, freeride foils less so, but wouldnt be as important.

Another option would be to not "roof" the box, just have the top of the box be the deck. Most formula boxes are built that way. I have used such a box with great succes for foilracing personally, but thats only my personal experience.

Having the foil masthead seat against the "roof" of the box is a matter of discussion anyway. My personal view on it is if you can make it happen it shouldnt hurt, but if you cant its not a big problem either if the walls are strong enough!

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Mark _australia said..
^^ Hi John that's a confusing description lol - is it actually a DT you sell, but pictured is a normal tuttle?

Thanks for the heads up its a standard tuttle not deep tuttle as its for prone surfboards, for the surfers they dont understand there is 2 depths so we were trying to describe the difference

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segler said..
Why do all of that back and front stuff? Just make the box run from the bottom deck to the top deck, and then skin over the top with plenty of glass and carbon. That's what most formula boards used to do (but not the ones with the "chimneys").

So, if your board is thick enough in the tail, the box is really deep, and every tuttle foil out there will fit. No, people, you do NOT need to fill in the empty inside top of the gap between the top of the foil fitting and the inside roof of the box. It does not add anything to the strength or alignment of the assembly. So what if you get a little water in there. No big deal. Formula boards have had this for many years.

When I was formula racing (in an earlier life), I went through a dozen models of F2, Starboard, and Mike's Lab formula boards. No chimneys in any of them. Nice deep tuttle boxes with the roofs right under the top skin. I still use two models of Mike's Lab formula boards for foiling.

What is critically important is to fit the foil top into the box to the point where the front and back rounded tapers are fully seated with zero movement. That, and that alone, is where the for and aft foil cantilever loads are carried.

Totally agree.

All foil boxes with 2 bolts are "formula boxes" since they are the tuttle design. What is different are the depths and inside roof slopes. Many board companies call these "foil boxes." Don't get confused. They are ALL tuttle-based.

Yes, formula boards and their big fins were designed to carry side forces, not fore and aft cantiliever forces exerted by foils. That said, most (but not all) formula boards' boxes are plenty strong enough for foiling. My three Mike's Lab formula boards are going strong, even with foiling with a race foil.

What matters is how the box is reinforced into the board structure. When they say "foil ready," it implies some kind of reinforcement. I know for a fact that North Pacific Surfboards use long stringers bonded to the tuttle box and embedded in the board structure. No foil will ever twist the box out of a North Pacific board. I presume others do something like this as well. You have to carry those massive fore and aft cantilever forces.

Actually, there are unlimited foil mast tuttle connection depths, so no 2 companies use a standard.
So to accept all "surf and short" tuttle heads, you need to make the box at least "medium" depth and hope it's deep enough.