Hi all.
I have had 4 sessions windfoiling and find that the boom is uncomfortably close to me while going upwind. I find it hard to hold for a long run, with my arms pulled close to my body. I have shorten my harness lines but they are basically directly above the hook, not taking any weight. I am using a NP V8 7m and a fairly wide slalom boom. My question is: would a narrower Freeride boom help me keeping a bit of space between me and the boom and a more comfortable position or am I dealing with a normal learning issue that could resolve as I progress?

many thanks

Ben

Lots of racers use wide race booms with long harness lines for up/down courses. About 26" for upwind and around 30" or not hooked in for downwind.

Select to expand quote

Bennn said..
Hi all.
I have had 4 sessions windfoiling and find that the boom is uncomfortably close to me while going upwind. I find it hard to hold for a long run, with my arms pulled close to my body. I have shorten my harness lines but they are basically directly above the hook, not taking any weight. I am using a NP V8 7m and a fairly wide slalom boom. My question is: would a narrower Freeride boom help me keeping a bit of space between me and the boom and a more comfortable position or am I dealing with a normal learning issue that could resolve as I progress?

many thanks

Ben

Both. Generally, we use shorter lines all other things being the same. It will also depend on your foil as some foils want to be ridden vertically and some are happy to heel over going upwind.

Also, the faster you go, your wing will develop more lift requiring you to put more pressure up front and you'll hang more on the booms naturally.

Ok, thanks for the input.
Im using a NP glide wind foil and a tabou rocket 69cm wide. Possibly the narrower board with a wide slalom boom doesnt help. The foil is apparently a back foot heavy design, but I have nothing to compare with. If I really push upwind, the boom is almost touching my ribs. Don't see what the harness lines could do to help here. If I hang on it seems to work ok but get tired relatively quickly. Do you guys move the lines forward much or leave them more or less in the same position as regular sailing?

Im sure I will figure this out as I spend more time on the water but if I can rule out a couple of basic things out, then I can focus on something else!

Thanks again

Watching the best foilers, arms are almost straight, even with wide booms and sail is very upright...Not leaned windward.

Select to expand quote

Bennn said..
Ok, thanks for the input.
Im using a NP glide wind foil and a tabou rocket 69cm wide. Possibly the narrower board with a wide slalom boom doesnt help. The foil is apparently a back foot heavy design, but I have nothing to compare with. If I really push upwind, the boom is almost touching my ribs. Don't see what the harness lines could do to help here. If I hang on it seems to work ok but get tired relatively quickly. Do you guys move the lines forward much or leave them more or less in the same position as regular sailing?

Im sure I will figure this out as I spend more time on the water but if I can rule out a couple of basic things out, then I can focus on something else!

Thanks again

Lines move slightly forward as (generally) the more efficient board requires less sail pressure to move along - the same reason that people starting out can easily foil without a harness. Doing that on a planing board will kill your arms pretty quickly - at least it does me - because of the greater force a planing board requires to stay moving vs the foil.

Remember, you can change front/back foot pressure by moving the mast base and changing boom height. Also, most foils. as they pick up speed, need more front foot pressure. The speed increases both wing lift and stab forcing the nose up. If it feels real back foot, try bring the mast base back a few cm and/or dropping the boom a touch.

I remember starting out and feeling like the boom was on top of me. I couldn't even stay hooked in and switched to a seat harness in an effort to take up some of the slack. I wish I could tell you what magic happened that I learned to keep my rig away from me. But somehow I do. Not sure if it was just time on the water or getting a foil-specific board. Maybe both. How powered up are you when trying to go upwind?

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..

Bennn said..
Ok, thanks for the input.
Im using a NP glide wind foil and a tabou rocket 69cm wide. Possibly the narrower board with a wide slalom boom doesnt help. The foil is apparently a back foot heavy design, but I have nothing to compare with. If I really push upwind, the boom is almost touching my ribs. Don't see what the harness lines could do to help here. If I hang on it seems to work ok but get tired relatively quickly. Do you guys move the lines forward much or leave them more or less in the same position as regular sailing?

Im sure I will figure this out as I spend more time on the water but if I can rule out a couple of basic things out, then I can focus on something else!

Thanks again

Lines move slightly forward as (generally) the more efficient board requires less sail pressure to move along - the same reason that people starting out can easily foil without a harness. Doing that on a planing board will kill your arms pretty quickly - at least it does me - because of the greater force a planing board requires to stay moving vs the foil.

Remember, you can change front/back foot pressure by moving the mast base and changing boom height. Also, most foils. as they pick up speed, need more front foot pressure. The speed increases both wing lift and stab forcing the nose up. If it feels real back foot, try bring the mast base back a few cm and/or dropping the boom a touch.

I remember starting out and feeling like the boom was on top of me. I couldn't even stay hooked in and switched to a seat harness in an effort to take up some of the slack. I wish I could tell you what magic happened that I learned to keep my rig away from me. But somehow I do. Not sure if it was just time on the water or getting a foil-specific board. Maybe both. How powered up are you when trying to go upwind?

Now what you describe is the same as I am experiencing. "The boom is on top of me". It is more obvious in low wind when I try to go upwind to build that apparent wind that everyone talk about. Maybe I focus too much on that. I certainly don't master that yet. I find sailing across the wind pretty comfortable but it is a real effort to go upwind. No walk of shame yet, I sail back to where I started but not making huge ground upwind. By the sound there is nothing too wrong with my setup, it probably comes down to more practice.
I appreciate your comment.
cheers

Just note that if the wind is light and you are right at the bottom end of the foiling threshold you will find it difficult to make significant ground upwind regardless of technique. This is due to the fact that the apparent wind speed you're seeing is so much higher than the true wind speed that it is challenging.

Sailing high upwind and low downwind in light conditions are probably the two hardest conditions to foil in because you are right at foiling threshold so the back foot pressure will be high and there is very little rig load so you will be very vertical in stance.

As soon as there is more wind and the rig is powered it is much easier as you have some power to 'hang against', the foil also makes a lot more lift as you are going faster. I think you're also going to find it difficult with that board if you are going to run big sails, and I'd consider a 7.0 a big-ish sail on that board when foiling. Bigger sails and narrow boards just feel awkward, particularly if they have a narrow tail. I know when I started I used a Hypersonic which was 75cm wide, fine with a 6.0, as soon as a put a 7.8 on it, it felt crap. I upgraded to a 86 cm wide board and it's a world of difference, you're further out away from the sail and it just feels so much more comfortable.

I think its a combination of a lot of factors. First of all, when learning it might feel a little tense, that will go away in a few sessions.
second, the sail might be a little big for your board. On a 75 wide freerideboard I wouldn't go bigger than 6.5, so on yours Id say 5.5 or so is the max (small 70cm foilboard I don't go bigger than 5.7, and that board is 65 in the tail.)
third, your foil and board might not be a good match.. i don't know where the footstraps of your board are located, but I think it should be quite comparable with the gecko foil edition, which has its footstraps way too far forward for comfortable sailing with most foils. You would know the preassure is too far back if you actively have to keep the board in the air and the rig falls towards the back of the board. With a good setup you can easily fly with your backfoot about halfway in between the straps, and the board should come up into the air and stay there automatically when you have a relaxed stance, even with the backfoot that far forward.
this last pointmight result in the rig feeling close because you have to let it fall towards the back of the board to lift weight of the mastfoot. This makes the rig come way closer to your body.

last, a back foot heavy foil will never have the upwind ability of a frontfoot powered foil, and a low aspect wing will never go as high upwind as a high aspect wing. It will still be a little better than a regular windsurfboard, and when overpowered quite a bit better, but don't expect your setup to perform the same upwind angles as the pro's are getting, because it just can't.

What has helped me to ride comfortable in light winds is "letting the sail go".
Usually in light winds and having not a lot of sail pressure i wanted to stay upright, pulling my body to the boom. I always felt my harness lines were too long (30") so i put my boom up 10 cm and started to use 26"lines. But today i ride 30" again with my regular boom height.
The trick is to let go the sail, especially straightening the front arm, so the sail is totally upright, producing the most power and keeping your upright body in balance. The first time when i let go the sail and straightened the front arm it felt like i loose controll, risking a catapult, but with that less sail power you can control it easy. It's just a new thing to learn, reprogramming your automatisms.
Alex

Ok. Thanks guys. That's a lot of great information. There has been no wind last few days so I haven't been able to try any of it. That is a lot to digest.
To summarise
1-That feeling of having the boom on top of me is common in the learning stages.
2-Narrow board matched with bigger sail will amplify the discomfort
3-The expectation to sail much upwind in low wind is unrealistic for a entry level foil in the learning stage.
4-People have found techniques and adjustments to get more comfortable. (Similar to learn normal windsurfing I guess)
5-Magic happened (what I'm relying on)


This take me back to my original question. Would a narrower boom help getting more comfortable? According to some of the comments, this would be logical if using a narrow board. If I can fit the same sail on a boom that is 4-5 cm narrower, It appear that would have the same effect as a board that is 4-5 cm wider as far as keeping the sailor upright and a bit further from the sail? (Not talking about the other benefits of a wider board). Although 4cm might not make much difference. Somehow, it appear that no one has tried that yet. I will find out and post back when I have experimented.

Thanks very much again for all the tips.

Ben

Select to expand quote

AlexF said..
What has helped me to ride comfortable in light winds is "letting the sail go".
Usually in light winds and having not a lot of sail pressure i wanted to stay upright, pulling my body to the boom. I always felt my harness lines were too long (30") so i put my boom up 10 cm and started to use 26"lines. But today i ride 30" again with my regular boom height.
The trick is to let go the sail, especially straightening the front arm, so the sail is totally upright, producing the most power and keeping your upright body in balance. The first time when i let go the sail and straightened the front arm it felt like i loose controll, risking a catapult, but with that less sail power you can control it easy. It's just a new thing to learn, reprogramming your automatisms.
Alex

I couldn't really understand what you meant until today's session. It's a great tip. It kind of came naturally today. Now I read it and it's clear. Will work on it next session.
Cheers

Select to expand quote

Bennn said..

AlexF said..
What has helped me to ride comfortable in light winds is "letting the sail go".
Usually in light winds and having not a lot of sail pressure i wanted to stay upright, pulling my body to the boom. I always felt my harness lines were too long (30") so i put my boom up 10 cm and started to use 26"lines. But today i ride 30" again with my regular boom height.
The trick is to let go the sail, especially straightening the front arm, so the sail is totally upright, producing the most power and keeping your upright body in balance. The first time when i let go the sail and straightened the front arm it felt like i loose controll, risking a catapult, but with that less sail power you can control it easy. It's just a new thing to learn, reprogramming your automatisms.
Alex

I couldn't really understand what you meant until today's session. It's a great tip. It kind of came naturally today. Now I read it and it's clear. Will work on it next session.
Cheers

Fine.
Next step for lightwind and getting through windholes is keeping this sail/bodyposition and bear off the wind, then start pumping the foil with your back foot in Kai Kenny style, at best in anklehigh chop, you can ride with almost no wind, it's magic.
Alex

In regards to boom width, with a high lift lower speed foil it's about doing whatever it takes to feel comfortable at that more upright stance.
it becomes more about a balanced upright stance than leaning and committing weight to the harness.
so compacting the rig could well suit you.