Hi
I found out this could be an interesting topic. I used a big foil with the smallest possible sail in lighter possible wind but the sail range was small. Now I use a bit smaller foil and need a bigger sail to take off in the same light wind but I suspect this second combination has bigger wind range.

To sum up, combinations with smaller foils and bigger sails have better wind range than those with big foils and small sails. Am I right?

It's hard to make generalized statements unless we know:
- board type and size
- rider weight
- discipline

For slalom racing, it's rather trivial to measure who's faster. For course racing, same, better VMG. For freeride, I have no idea :)

I've foiled in 20-25 gusts both with 8 m2 foil race sail + 1000 wing, and 10 m2 foil race sail + 900 wing. Both are doable, but I had more control with smaller sail and larger foil due to slower speed and less weight to hold down to.

Select to expand quote

FormuIa said..
It's hard to make generalized statements unless we know:
- board type and size
- rider weight
- discipline

For slalom racing, it's rather trivial to measure who's faster. For course racing, same, better VMG. For freeride, I have no idea :)

I've foiled in 20-25 gusts both with 8 m2 foil race sail + 1000 wing, and 10 m2 foil race sail + 900 wing. Both are doable, but I had more control with smaller sail and larger foil due to slower speed and less weight to hold down to.

I referred to freeride windfoiling only

I am for smaller wings and bigger sails, in 8-9 knots 8.0 sail F1080 cm2 wing, 9-11 knots 7.2 sail and F1080 cm2 wing, 11-14 knots 7.2 or 5.8 sail and F770 cm2 wing, 14-18 knots 5.8 or 4.5 sail and F770 cm2 or S670 cm2 wing, 18-22 knots 4.5 sail and F770 cm2 or S670 cm2 wing, +20 knots 4.5 sail and S670 cm2 wing.
These are approximate ranges, still working on finding the lower end wind speeds for the 4.5 sail and S670 cm2 wing.

What I find is as the wind speed increases a smaller wing makes it so much easier to handle gusts, like the S670 cm2 wing, I can push it around so easily with front foot pressure in gusts up to ~30 knots. In contrast the F1080 in the 20-25 knot range makes for an on the edge thrill ride because it wants to breach in the gusts.

So yes, I think smaller wings and bigger sails have a broader wind range because the smaller wings are easier to control with front foot pressure when over powered. Just have to be in wind above the minimum needed to get the smaller wing flying.

There is also the issue of speed, I like to go fast and going to too small of a wing for a given sail size can result is slower speeds, so I try to match the sail size to the wind speed first (for ease of handling) and so that my wings bracket the wind speed, that way if the wind speed decreases or increases I can just switch out the wing and get back out on the water quickly with the same sail.

Someone here once said they use just a 6.0 sail for all conditions while using different size wings. That will work, but it will reduce your speed on the lower wind speeds.

Select to expand quote

Mucel said..
Hi
I found out this could be an interesting topic. I used a big foil with the smallest possible sail in lighter possible wind but the sail range was small. Now I use a bit smaller foil and need a bigger sail to take off in the same light wind but I suspect this second combination has bigger wind range.

To sum up, combinations with smaller foils and bigger sails have better wind range than those with big foils and small sails. Am I right?

I suspect you are correct generally but you will need a wider board to take advantage of this range. There are lots of variables though, when i think of making big sails work in strong wing I think you need a high aspect wing and longer fuse.

for similar wings eg sabfoil 799/5.3 versus 999/4.2 I am not sure I see a significant difference in range.

PS: I did find that the infinity 99 became a handful in rough water and strong wind versus the i76 which had a great range

If you want to keep your quiver simple, a biggish foil with a huge sail range works just fine.

Friends of mine ride the 926 wing with sails from 2.5 to 7.5. Being not quite as crazy as they are (and a lot older), I ride a SAB 950 with 4.2 to 7.0.

Select to expand quote

segler said..
If you want to keep your quiver simple...

... get the IQ foil

Phantasm 926 is 1233 cm2, and SAB 950 is 1350 cm2, they are both bigger than my biggest wing, AFS F1080 cm2! I try to get off of it asap, usually around 11-12 knots, it is good below 11 knots, but want more speed over 11 knots.

Select to expand quote

Mucel said..
Hi
I found out this could be an interesting topic. I used a big foil with the smallest possible sail in lighter possible wind but the sail range was small. Now I use a bit smaller foil and need a bigger sail to take off in the same light wind but I suspect this second combination has bigger wind range.

To sum up, combinations with smaller foils and bigger sails have better wind range than those with big foils and small sails. Am I right?

For me there's not much difference in range between the 2 combos. But I usually choose big sail/smaller foil because I can't be bothered uphauling

I've tried super-small foils - to ride swells 800cm2 seems about the minimum.

I like small sails no cams, no harness, no foot straps, bigger foils, with 2 sails 3.3& 5.1, i cover 6-30kn on same 1500cm2... Not after speed now days, more about swell, waves, free riding.

The phantasm 926 is a really good all around foil for 4.4-7.0 for me. I'm mostly ride with a 6.3 and that's about as big as I want to go without switching to the iqfoil setup and much wider board. I'm just now to where I can start trying to ride swells but I'm not that great at it. Pretty garbage actually.
Don't think I'd want to go smaller on a foil for freedide after going down to the 650 and 725 Starboard wings, but I could be convinced to try a smaller phantasm wing around 1100 on a windy day. It just gets sketchy in the chaotic swells when you're doing 20+ knots on race gear. Way more mellow on the phantasm.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

Mucel said..
Hi
I found out this could be an interesting topic. I used a big foil with the smallest possible sail in lighter possible wind but the sail range was small. Now I use a bit smaller foil and need a bigger sail to take off in the same light wind but I suspect this second combination has bigger wind range.

To sum up, combinations with smaller foils and bigger sails have better wind range than those with big foils and small sails. Am I right?

I suspect you are correct generally but you will need a wider board to take advantage of this range. There are lots of variables though, when i think of making big sails work in strong wing I think you need a high aspect wing and longer fuse.

for similar wings eg sabfoil 799/5.3 versus 999/4.2 I am not sure I see a significant difference in range.

PS: I did find that the infinity 99 became a handful in rough water and strong wind versus the i76 which had a great range

The topic is very much interesting; my goal on the practical side is to make life simpler and quiver choiche simple since I get inconsistent conditions time to time and cannot bring too much of gear to the beach every time. so one board, 2 wings 1000 and 800 cm2 and on forecast 2 sails, if I get overpowered I change wing first is simpler than rigging another sail. Is not the optimum but makes it easy to manage. with only the 1000 wing I would need to go down to 3.7 or even below with 25-30 knots with a quiver of 6-7 sails...way too much for me to handle.

Edoardo

Big or small the advantage of foil is that the wind range is much broader than with a fin. I also find that it is a lot easier to change wing than sail.
with 5.8 and 4.4 freeride cammed sails I covered 90% of my sessions from 10-12 to 25 knts, using 1400 and 914 (earlier 1150) Naish foils.
Big wing/small sail is great for learning, but then I find it more fun to use a smaller wing.
you can check here:
martignoni.id.au/stats.php?year=2022_foil&sort=sail

Yes, I see it very possible, since I could use my 6.7 till 15knots when I need to swap to 4.7, in the light wind range 10-15 is much easier to cover the gap with 1 sail (5.7 is better though if is solid 12+), when blowing 15-25 you need to get 4.7 first, swap to the smaller foil when getting to 20ish and then go to 4.2 sail when close to 25.

Just curious, the reported are average speeds right? What is the max speed you got out from the foils you got?

cheers

Edoardo

I am not an advanced user and have a freeride setup. The speed is measured with an accurate device approved by gpstc, the max speed is the one in the 2sec column (being the avg of 2 seconds, which is slower, but much more reliable than instant speed ).

Seems like a lot of variables depending on local conditions and preferences. In my case, I want to use the smallest sails possible, but not interasted in foiling < 13ish knots of wind. A 5.2 sail is as big as I'm willing to go on sail size. My current PFI730 has a huge dynamic speed range with enough max speed for me (21 knots). 3 sails cover my range from 13 to 30 knots. It would certainly be easier to just swap front wings than rig another sail, but I prefer using the smallest sail possible. They are just more fun to me, faster jibing/duck jibing. Easier to uphaul. I prefer to water start, but most times it's faster to uphaul than wait for a gust to water start. I could water start in less wind with a big sail, but it's more effort to get it positioned etc. I'm sure I'll get a smaller front wing at some point. But that would have limited use when the winds are nukin' all day, which is rare in my location. On the other end of the spectrum we haveI guy's uphauling 9 meter IQ sails in 25 knots, but looks like murder to me .