I used to be so over rigged (sail and wing) that I was on the edge of foiling out a lot of the time, and was holding onto boom with both hands even when hooked in. Andy got me to use forward harness line to replace front hand, so front hand could relax and back hand was just for sheeting sail in/out. But I still really have to pay attention to my grip on boom, because even though I am hooked in with short line will still use front hand to hold boom instead of getting harness to hold it! Catching it on first run of session now, but old habits die hard But if I use harness then arms do not get tired, makes gybes easier because arms are not tired going into it.

Oh, forgot to mention, try to use underhand grip with front hand on boom, cause if I do "hold" boom with front hand tend to not hold as tightly versus overhand grip.

You should have the harness lines perfectly positioned so you can let go of either hand and the sail doesn't move.

Sheet out with the front hand by pulling towards you. and keep constant pressure on the harness so you don't rock up/down on foil!

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berowne said..
You should have the harness lines perfectly positioned so you can let go of either hand and the sail doesn't move.

Sheet out with the front hand by pulling towards you. and keep constant pressure on the harness so you don't rock up/down on foil!

"You should have the harness lines perfectly positioned so you can let go of either hand and the sail doesn't move." I used to do that before the lesson with Andy, have tried going back to it a couple of times but it always feels so easy to foil out in the gusty conditions we have here, so adjust lines to the forward position and never feel almost/out of control.

Now when I was windsurfing, then I had the lines balanced like you said.

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Sandman1221 said..
Oh, forgot to mention, try to use underhand grip with front hand on boom, cause if I do "hold" boom with front hand tend to not hold as tightly versus overhand grip.

Whatever works for ya, but i switched to overhand grip from underhand for exactly that reason. Using underhand grip you can engage too much muscle and end up muscling the boom.

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Subsonic said..

Sandman1221 said..
Oh, forgot to mention, try to use underhand grip with front hand on boom, cause if I do "hold" boom with front hand tend to not hold as tightly versus overhand grip.

Whatever works for ya, but i switched to overhand grip from underhand for exactly that reason. Using underhand grip you can engage too much muscle and end up muscling the boom.

Wow, interesting Subsonic, guess everyone is different, the upside for me using underhand grip when foiling "straight" is that is takes different muscles than the overhand grip that I use for gybing so even if I am over using front hand a little while using underhand grip, have plenty of strength/endurance for doing the gybe with the overhand grip.

If rigged efficiently with correct harness line length and position grip strength is never an issue in windfoiling.

Was out today in light winds slogging half the time, forward harness lines do not work well when fully extended and hooked in on the water, so tried moving back to balanced lines, that worked good of course when hooked in with the Sailworks Quicktune adjustable lines all the way out and slogging to hold sail, also worked good when a gust came along to lean out and get up on the foil, but then problem then was the lines were way too long in-flight, so for the first time tried adjusting the lines while on the foil, actually was fairly easy with cleat facing up. But with forward lines I tried in-flight but lines are unbalanced and if I took my rear hand off the boom sail depowered or it just was not easy to do, but will try next time and see now that I got the hang of it with balanced lines.

So forward lines for high gusty winds when I pump up quickly and then hook into 23.5" lines, and balanced lines for light winds and slogging when I have the lines all the way out when on the water to hold sail, but then need to shorten in-flight.

But I think the problem for me when using forward harness lines in high gusty winds is I am using my rear hand to grip the boom to sheet in and out, and so unconsciously my front hand wants to also tightly grip the boom even though it is not necessary with forward lines. So just need to pay attention and keep front hand relaxed while holding boom lightly.

I have been using 2 sets of harness lines.

There are 2 reasons:

1) shorter (and inner) with COF more to front are used for foiling and longer (outer) for slogging or "foil assisted planing" (more MBP as well).

2) I am heavy (90+kg in speedos while in gear ~110kg) and use most of the time sails ~11m so even the thickest harness lines wear out. See the picture (thickest Chinook and Dakine). I even wear out stainless steel. Look at my harness hook. It is only holding at one side and there is the gap after factory weld.
So for me having second set of harness lines also acts as redundancy / safety as I often go far from launch site up to 8h sessions at a time in the Summer (carrying also 2L camel water pouch in the backpack, paddles, extra safety gear etc. etc.).

Broken /cracked hook:


Wear out harness lines:



Double harness lines:

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mareks360 said..
I have been using 2 sets of harness lines.

There are 2 reasons:

1) shorter (and inner) with COF more to front are used for foiling and longer (outer) for slogging or "foil assisted planing" (more MBP as well).

2) I am heavy (90+kg in speedos while in gear ~110kg) and use most of the time sails ~11m so even the thickest harness lines wear out. See the picture (thickest Chinook and Dakine). I even wear out stainless steel. Look at my harness hook. It is only holding at one side and there is the gap after factory weld.
So for me having second set of harness lines also acts as redundancy / safety as I often go far from launch site up to 8h sessions at a time in the Summer (carrying also 2L camel water pouch in the backpack, paddles, extra safety gear etc. etc.).

Broken /cracked hook:


Wear out harness lines:



Double harness lines:

Hey thanks for the info. mareks!, I tried using two nested fixed length harness lines too but with the Quiktune lines found I did not need them, especially now that I can adjust them in-flight when they are in the balanced position. And on the water they are easy to slide on the boom between balanced and forward positions, so now just reposition based on the wind conditions. FYI, I replaced the Quiktune rope with 1/2" Amsteel line (West Marine has it in cut to length) really tough, I would try replacing your lines with that, a guy told me he used it on racing catamarans and never had a problem. As for your hook, that can definitely be welded at a shop, would not want to be out there with that hook!

The other advantage of the Quiktune lines is they are adjustable, and I find for higher winds in 14+ knot range I have them forward and set them to 23.5" (min. length, cut off some of the tubing), but for lower winds when I am slogging they are balanced and all the way out until I get up and then adjust to maybe 27". With lower winds I use longer lines to have the sail more vertical while leaning out, with higher winds pull sail windward with shorter lines while leaning out.

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Sandman1221 said..

mareks360 said..
I have been using 2 sets of harness lines.

There are 2 reasons:

1) shorter (and inner) with COF more to front are used for foiling and longer (outer) for slogging or "foil assisted planing" (more MBP as well).

2) I am heavy (90+kg in speedos while in gear ~110kg) and use most of the time sails ~11m so even the thickest harness lines wear out. See the picture (thickest Chinook and Dakine). I even wear out stainless steel. Look at my harness hook. It is only holding at one side and there is the gap after factory weld.
So for me having second set of harness lines also acts as redundancy / safety as I often go far from launch site up to 8h sessions at a time in the Summer (carrying also 2L camel water pouch in the backpack, paddles, extra safety gear etc. etc.).

Broken /cracked hook:


Wear out harness lines:



Double harness lines:

Hey thanks for the info. mareks!, I tried using two nested fixed length harness lines too but with the Quiktune lines found I did not need them, especially now that I can adjust them in-flight when they are in the balanced position. And on the water they are easy to slide on the boom between balanced and forward positions, so now just reposition based on the wind conditions. FYI, I replaced the Quiktune rope with 1/2" Amsteel line (West Marine has it in cut to length) really tough, I would try replacing your lines with that, a guy told me he used it on racing catamarans and never had a problem. As for your hook, that can definitely be welded at a shop, would not want to be out there with that hook!

The other advantage of the Quiktune lines is they are adjustable, and I find for higher winds in 14+ knot range I have them forward and set them to 23.5" (min. length, cut off some of the tubing), but for lower winds when I am slogging they are balanced and all the way out until I get up and then adjust to maybe 27". With lower winds I use longer lines to have the sail more vertical while leaning out, with higher winds pull sail windward with shorter lines while leaning out.

Thanks Sandman !

Harness lines:
I will look into the Amsteel lines from West Marine. I do sometimes go to their store in Seattle.

Harness hook:
Unfortunately the "Budget Welder" quoted me minimum 90min work for $225 minimum.
This was older Prolimit system so the crossbars with that specific buckle are no longer available.
Today I switched to Dakine Hawaii XT Harness and Reactor crossbar that comes with a roller.
Hopefully roller makes less wear on the harness lines than hook.
New harness was fine in today almost 6h session but it takes a bit to get used to new harness, roller and its new position.

Dual fixed harness lines:
Unfortunately I sail in place where I switch 100s if not 1000s of times between slogging and foiling therefore fixed lines work the best for me.
For me the dual harness lines are perfectly balanced one for pure foiling the other for slogging and foil assisted planing (where I drive the board forward, hanging much more out, sheeting in more)
If you are curious how often I switch between, you can check a graph of my today session report on our NW Windtalk (USA & Canada Pacific North West):
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/lk_wa_3_6_23_monday_report/97443979

Select to expand quote

mareks360 said..

Sandman1221 said..

mareks360 said..
I have been using 2 sets of harness lines.

There are 2 reasons:

1) shorter (and inner) with COF more to front are used for foiling and longer (outer) for slogging or "foil assisted planing" (more MBP as well).

2) I am heavy (90+kg in speedos while in gear ~110kg) and use most of the time sails ~11m so even the thickest harness lines wear out. See the picture (thickest Chinook and Dakine). I even wear out stainless steel. Look at my harness hook. It is only holding at one side and there is the gap after factory weld.
So for me having second set of harness lines also acts as redundancy / safety as I often go far from launch site up to 8h sessions at a time in the Summer (carrying also 2L camel water pouch in the backpack, paddles, extra safety gear etc. etc.).

Broken /cracked hook:


Wear out harness lines:



Double harness lines:

Hey thanks for the info. mareks!, I tried using two nested fixed length harness lines too but with the Quiktune lines found I did not need them, especially now that I can adjust them in-flight when they are in the balanced position. And on the water they are easy to slide on the boom between balanced and forward positions, so now just reposition based on the wind conditions. FYI, I replaced the Quiktune rope with 1/2" Amsteel line (West Marine has it in cut to length) really tough, I would try replacing your lines with that, a guy told me he used it on racing catamarans and never had a problem. As for your hook, that can definitely be welded at a shop, would not want to be out there with that hook!

The other advantage of the Quiktune lines is they are adjustable, and I find for higher winds in 14+ knot range I have them forward and set them to 23.5" (min. length, cut off some of the tubing), but for lower winds when I am slogging they are balanced and all the way out until I get up and then adjust to maybe 27". With lower winds I use longer lines to have the sail more vertical while leaning out, with higher winds pull sail windward with shorter lines while leaning out.

Thanks Sandman !

Harness lines:
I will look into the Amsteel lines from West Marine. I do sometimes go to their store in Seattle.

Harness hook:
Unfortunately the "Budget Welder" quoted me minimum 90min work for $225 minimum.
This was older Prolimit system so the crossbars with that specific buckle are no longer available.
Today I switched to Dakine Hawaii XT Harness and Reactor crossbar that comes with a roller.
Hopefully roller makes less wear on the harness lines than hook.
New harness was fine in today almost 6h session but it takes a bit to get used to new harness, roller and its new position.

Dual fixed harness lines:
Unfortunately I sail in place where I switch 100s if not 1000s of times between slogging and foiling therefore fixed lines work the best for me.
For me the dual harness lines are perfectly balanced one for pure foiling the other for slogging and foil assisted planing (where I drive the board forward, hanging much more out, sheeting in more)
If you are curious how often I switch between, you can check a graph of my today session report on our NW Windtalk (USA & Canada Pacific North West):
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/lk_wa_3_6_23_monday_report/97443979

Good info. mareks, thanks, will keep the dual lines in mind next time I go out in light winds, I set them up once on my boom but never actually tried them in a session. The problem for me is the Dakine fixed harness lines I have can only be attached by taking the tail off. And now that I feel comfortable adjusting the Quiktune lines in-flight it will be hard to go back! But I guess I could have two nested lines in the balanced position, and shorter 24" lines in the forward position.

In gusty conditions the forward line position makes it really easy to sheet out and let the gust pass, actually happens almost automatically because my rear hand and arm is normally holding the boom in somewhat, and so when a big gust hits all I need to do is relax my arm and let the gust push the sail out. And with the forward line position the sail can sheet out a lot farther than with balanced lines. Rarely foil out now using the forward lines and F1080 cm2 wing, and can not remember the last time I foiled out with F770 cm2 wing, and have never foiled out with S670 cm2 wing even though with that wing I am in a lot stronger winds (18-30 knot range).

Anyone reading this far needs to realize that good foilers do not need to change line length or position across conditions.
What you are seeing here are two sailors with maladaptive techniques who refuse to learn better ones.

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Grantmac said..
Anyone reading this far needs to realize that good foilers do not need to change line length or position across conditions.
What you are seeing here are two sailors with maladaptive techniques who refuse to learn better ones.

My PNW Friend from up North from me, Grant, tries to be funny ;)
Sailing in Ballingham or British Columbia up North I would also stay on a foil closer to 100% of time and use 50% of my current 11m sails square footage (meaning 5-6m would be enough).
There is an old Wisdom: "You buy the gear not for conditions you wish you had but for the conditions you actually have".
Lets see if Grant would make 35 miles in less than 6h and 6mph average speed. with 50/50 slogging/foiling when your closest sensor max gust would show 11.2mph.
Average wind 5-6mph, Lulls down to 0mph
No kidding:





So, People who want to be on the water and do not have luxury of stronger and steady winds, have to be creative:
1) Use gear that is best for their location actual conditions
2) Use gear that is best for their weight 90-110kg (200-240lb)
3) Use and optimize gear for e.g. 50/50 slogging/foiling e.g. 2 sets of harness lines
4) Chase "Wind Corridors" with the most wind all the time.

While Grant's only criteria, "no white caps - no foiling".

BTW: I miss so much sailing Botany Bay, Sydney Coves etc, such a steady winds while here all the time dealing with Convergence Zone.
BTW2: I still make most out of it anyway. Here is my 12 month report 2000 miles in 2021:
"What can Lake Washington deliver 12 months in a year even for "Heavier Dude" ? - Stats & Analysis"
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/message/76194

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mareks360 said..

BTW: I miss so much sailing Botany Bay, Sydney Coves etc, such a steady winds while here all the time dealing with Convergence Zone.

These were the Good Old Days Windsurfing in Sydney on Rick Murray's old racing rig (I bought from him) KA-4 Gaastra Total Flow F1 8.8m.
Also riding another Aussie Champion old sail Neil Pride MK IV 6.3m Sail from Scott Scotty McKercher
- footage from 23-26 years ago:



Funny thing happening to me.
Now I frequently ride several old sails from another Aussie / American Champ: Phill McGain KA-7 (AUS-007): several Gaastra Nitros in range from 8.7m to 12.0m

Can I feel like a Champ ?

I'd be on a raceboard making those miles in half the time, as has been recommended to you multiple times on local forums.
You don't raceboard because it's hard and technical, you might actually fall off since they aren't 1m wide and stabilized by 12# of aluminum hanging off the bottom.

Maybe there should be a separate subcategory for these kinds of threads

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Grantmac said..
I'd be on a raceboard making those miles in half the time, as has been recommended to you multiple times on local forums.
You don't raceboard because it's hard and technical, you might actually fall off since they aren't 1m wide and stabilized by 12# of aluminum hanging off the bottom.

Raceboard vs Foil:
It all depends on what you are doing: UP/Down wind (e.g. Racing) or BAF (Back and Forth - Slalom).
I has been well proven in our local City League Races (UP/Down) that there is a threshold of about 10mph for our Local Champs like Jonathan R & Darius L where they can win the race even against our Best Local Seasoned Raceboarders.
However, if the race would be BAF, that threshold moves down to between 6-8mph Wind for them.

Race Foil (HA) (like SB M1000) versus (MA, LA) larger "Shovels" (SS i76, i84, i99):
"Shovels" provide great early lift but are speed limited. Race Foils provide later lift but are fast and efficient.
Talk to Greg M - our Local Raceboard Champ.
After the session at OO Denny when we were sailing BAF, Greg M acknowledged that he could catch up (take over) another sailor who was on SS Shovel but Could not catch up with me when I was on SB M1000/115++/255(-2).
He was on a Raceboard.

Raceboard too Technical ?!:
To me my Raceboard Mistral Superlight II is easy to ride. Raceboards have thick rails and are stable.
I own several long boards and take them "for a spin" from time: 2 Mistral Superlight Ones (original, vintage & modified for racing), Mistral Superlight 2, F2 Lightening, Mistral Competition TCS and Slingshot Flyer 280 can be considered a "long board".
Yes, I had some challenges racing Mistral Superlight One when my centerboard box was beat up and CB was bouncing all around and also popping up by itself while racing upwind. Now I shimmed it so it is snug.
Another component at the time was heavy sail MS TR8-XT 12.0m at almost 20LB ! The heaviest of all my sails.
Please note that Mistral Superlight One has more volume in the center comparing to Raceboard Mistral Superlight Two (distributed to thick rails therefore much more stable).

I posted how "Joyous" sailing my Raceboard was UP/ Down wind.
Grant M got even some Kudos from me. Don't you remember?
Does Leeward Railing actually work ? If so, how much ? What other factors ?
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/message/74842

Conclusion:
If you are flying on a Race Foil BAF (enough wind for at least 50 slogging/ 50 flying), the Raceboard would provide less mileage and less flying sensation as well.