The downside of sticking with a 4m in 30 knots on the ocean

Man that looks sweet. I like seeing those clips where the foil keeps flying and comes out on its own. Keep sending it!

Now that is where my Goya Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board makes all the difference in 20-30 knots, longer nose gets me over the 2-3' waves without catching them and crashing! Getting back up on the kit in 30 knots after a crash is a pain.

Very interesting to see you in the leeward rear strap. That's my natural position on the wing board but of course they don't have rear straps offset like that so I only get into the rear for jumping. Feels very unstable when I'm not offset and I'd considered any new board getting double rears that I'd engage how you are.

It seems like the board is flying with the nose down, and makes you wonder if the rake needs to be adjusted. I know it is hard to do with a pedestal mount. Maybe a 125cm mast would help?

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Grantmac said..
Very interesting to see you in the leeward rear strap. That's my natural position on the wing board but of course they don't have rear straps offset like that so I only get into the rear for jumping. Feels very unstable when I'm not offset and I'd considered any new board getting double rears that I'd engage how you are.

Well spotted
I used to downwind with my foot in the windward rear (conventional footstrap) but the force needed to turn the board to leeward from that position eventually broke my big toe and since healing it no longer bends.
Offsetting my foot to the leeward half-strap turns the board with less effort - experimented with conventional dual footstraps but couldn't find space to get my foot into the leeward strap.
Sometimes if I'm on the edge in big swells and winds I'll use the leeward rear upwind, it seems to help control the board although I do lose some speed.
Hope that makes sense.

Nice vid, keep them coming. You are getting some big style points for some of those dismounts

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Sandman1221 said..
Now that is where my Goya Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board makes all the difference in 20-30 knots, longer nose gets me over the 2-3' waves without catching them and crashing! Getting back up on the kit in 30 knots after a crash is a pain.

Interesting.

In some of the stacks I think the deceleration from the board hitting the water at 18-20 knots combined with trying to handle excess sail power from using too big a sail for the conditions made the crashes irrecoverable, at least for me
A longer nose might have only resulted in more crashes.

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azymuth said..

Sandman1221 said..
Now that is where my Goya Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board makes all the difference in 20-30 knots, longer nose gets me over the 2-3' waves without catching them and crashing! Getting back up on the kit in 30 knots after a crash is a pain.

Interesting.

In some of the stacks I think the deceleration from the board hitting the water at 18-20 knots combined with trying to handle excess sail power from using too big a sail for the conditions made the crashes irrecoverable, at least for me
A longer nose might have only resulted in more crashes.

I have been in those conditions with a 4.5 Phantom sail and AFS S670 cm2 wing, never crashed once, and I know you are more experienced/proficient than me. So I am left to conclude the board made a difference, and I did see your board nose catch waves. You were on a bigger wing, that did not help, but did not cause nose to catch waves.

One time it was so strong (30 knot gusts) the jet skiers would not go out past the no wake pilings, had to tell them to stop going fast in that zone so they did not run me over as I was going out or coming back in.

This folks is the difference between foiling in 2' chop (Sandman) vs 2m swell (Azymuth). Adding board length in serious swell just means you can't get the foil to respond fast enough to make the drop.

Although I agree that rake would help. I've played with it and it's a real game changer for breach recovery.

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Grantmac said..
This folks is the difference between foiling in 2' chop (Sandman) vs 2m swell (Azymuth). Adding board length in serious swell just means you can't get the foil to respond fast enough to make the drop.

Although I agree that rake would help. I've played with it and it's a real game changer for breach recovery.

Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

5/5 stars for this dismount

walking on water.

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thedoor said..

Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

Agreed. + more nose length would make it worse IMO. Any length in front of the UJ is dead weight and windage anyway. I only have just enough bow to slog may way home which could take 20 minutes. Otherwise, I would love a 90L board.

Swing weight versus breach recovery...swing weight versus breach recovery...take your pick. Can't have it both ways.

Actually, adjusting the rake with a twin track should be easier than with a DT fitting if you want to maintain structural integrity. Just fab some sort of big flat tapered shim to fit between the twin track base and the board. Has anybody offered these on the market? If it is thicker in front, you raise the nose of the board.

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WsurfAustin said..

thedoor said..




Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

Agreed. + more nose length would make it worse IMO. Any length in front of the UJ is dead weight and windage anyway. I only have just enough bow to slog may way home which could take 20 minutes. Otherwise, I would love a 90L board.

Then why do I, a more inexperienced foiler, not crash in the same or worse conditions? I see the nose of my Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board just clear 3 foot waves many times, or skip off the top of those waves. If it was shorter it would catch them, just like we can all see in azymuth's video and many others posted here. You guys just do not want to admit your foil specific boards are a hazard in high wind conditions with waves IMO!

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segler said..
Swing weight versus breach recovery...swing weight versus breach recovery...take your pick. Can't have it both ways.

Actually, adjusting the rake with a twin track should be easier than with a DT fitting if you want to maintain structural integrity. Just fab some sort of big flat tapered shim to fit between the twin track base and the board. Has anybody offered these on the market? If it is thicker in front, you raise the nose of the board.

Pedestal shims are available both commercially and in 3D printable form. I've also just used a piece of scraper.
The issue is that the nuts then don't engage the track at 90 degrees so you are somewhat limited to maybe 1.5-2 degrees. Folks are shimming DT foils a lot more than that no problem.

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Sandman1221 said..

WsurfAustin said..

thedoor said..




Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

Agreed. + more nose length would make it worse IMO. Any length in front of the UJ is dead weight and windage anyway. I only have just enough bow to slog may way home which could take 20 minutes. Otherwise, I would love a 90L board.

Then why do I, a more inexperienced foiler, not crash in the same or worse conditions? I see the nose of my Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board just clear 3 foot waves many times, or skip off the top of those waves. If it was shorter it would catch them, just like we can all see in azymuth's video and many others posted here. You guys just do not want to admit your foil specific boards are a hazard in high wind conditions with waves IMO!

Show us the videos of your jibe attempts in those conditions

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aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

WsurfAustin said..

thedoor said..




Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

Agreed. + more nose length would make it worse IMO. Any length in front of the UJ is dead weight and windage anyway. I only have just enough bow to slog may way home which could take 20 minutes. Otherwise, I would love a 90L board.

Then why do I, a more inexperienced foiler, not crash in the same or worse conditions? I see the nose of my Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board just clear 3 foot waves many times, or skip off the top of those waves. If it was shorter it would catch them, just like we can all see in azymuth's video and many others posted here. You guys just do not want to admit your foil specific boards are a hazard in high wind conditions with waves IMO!

Show us the videos of your jibe attempts in those conditions

It is not about jibing, he is catching waves with the short nose just going straight too! As is the case in many other videos!

Marketing convinced you that you needed a foil specific board, so you bought one, and now you are desperately trying to justify your expensive mistake!

And I have certainly thought of getting a foil specific board, when I felt the need to get my rear foot farther outward on my relatively narrow tailed Bolt 135 slalom board. But what I found out is, if the sail is properly trimmed and paired with the appropriate wing, I do not want to move my rear foot farther outward. It was only in over powered conditions, with too big of a wing and a sail that was too big and/or not out-hauled enough, that I felt the need to get my rear foot further away from the rail.

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Sandman1221 said..

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

WsurfAustin said..

thedoor said..




Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

Agreed. + more nose length would make it worse IMO. Any length in front of the UJ is dead weight and windage anyway. I only have just enough bow to slog may way home which could take 20 minutes. Otherwise, I would love a 90L board.

Then why do I, a more inexperienced foiler, not crash in the same or worse conditions? I see the nose of my Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board just clear 3 foot waves many times, or skip off the top of those waves. If it was shorter it would catch them, just like we can all see in azymuth's video and many others posted here. You guys just do not want to admit your foil specific boards are a hazard in high wind conditions with waves IMO!

Show us the videos of your jibe attempts in those conditions

It is not about jibing, he is catching waves with the short nose just going straight too! As is the case in many other videos!

Marketing convinced you that you needed a foil specific board, so you bought one, and now you are desperately trying to justify your expensive mistake!

And I have certainly thought of getting a foil specific board, when I felt the need to get my rear foot farther outward on my relatively narrow tailed Bolt 135 slalom board. But what I found out is, if the sail is properly trimmed and paired with the appropriate wing, I do not want to move my rear foot farther outward. It was only in over powered conditions, with too big of a wing and a sail that was too big and/or not out-hauled enough, that I felt the need to get my rear foot further away from the rail.

I had the long nose board below back in 2017 when I was at your stage of the foiling journey of learning to gybe.
The nose probably did help with touchdown recoveries when going slowly enough.
But by the end of 2017 I'd cut the nose off. It stifled progression.

You're a beginner foiler - why are you desperate to show that more skilled/experienced foilers are wrong?

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..

Sandman1221 said..

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

WsurfAustin said..

thedoor said..




Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

Agreed. + more nose length would make it worse IMO. Any length in front of the UJ is dead weight and windage anyway. I only have just enough bow to slog may way home which could take 20 minutes. Otherwise, I would love a 90L board.

Then why do I, a more inexperienced foiler, not crash in the same or worse conditions? I see the nose of my Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board just clear 3 foot waves many times, or skip off the top of those waves. If it was shorter it would catch them, just like we can all see in azymuth's video and many others posted here. You guys just do not want to admit your foil specific boards are a hazard in high wind conditions with waves IMO!

Show us the videos of your jibe attempts in those conditions

It is not about jibing, he is catching waves with the short nose just going straight too! As is the case in many other videos!

Marketing convinced you that you needed a foil specific board, so you bought one, and now you are desperately trying to justify your expensive mistake!

And I have certainly thought of getting a foil specific board, when I felt the need to get my rear foot farther outward on my relatively narrow tailed Bolt 135 slalom board. But what I found out is, if the sail is properly trimmed and paired with the appropriate wing, I do not want to move my rear foot farther outward. It was only in over powered conditions, with too big of a wing and a sail that was too big and/or not out-hauled enough, that I felt the need to get my rear foot further away from the rail.

I had the long nose board below back in 2017 when I was at your stage of the foiling journey of learning to gybe.
The nose probably did help with touchdown recoveries when going slowly enough.
But by the end of 2017 I'd cut the nose off. It stifles progression.

You're a beginner foiler - why are you desperate to show that more skilled/experienced foilers are wrong?

, good laugh! Note to self, when I start to crash repeatedly in 20-30 knots I will be an expert!, and have tons of fun trying to get back on the kit in 2-3 foot waves with 20-30 knot gusts battering me and the sail. For now as a beginner will have to be satisfied with just flying across the waves and tacking on the water which is a little tricky with a 4.5 sail (no support) in 2-3' waves, but if I cut hard into the wind while on the foil, and then drop to water at last second, can get around quickly.

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Sandman1221 said..

azymuth said..

Sandman1221 said..

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

WsurfAustin said..

thedoor said..




Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

Agreed. + more nose length would make it worse IMO. Any length in front of the UJ is dead weight and windage anyway. I only have just enough bow to slog may way home which could take 20 minutes. Otherwise, I would love a 90L board.

Then why do I, a more inexperienced foiler, not crash in the same or worse conditions? I see the nose of my Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board just clear 3 foot waves many times, or skip off the top of those waves. If it was shorter it would catch them, just like we can all see in azymuth's video and many others posted here. You guys just do not want to admit your foil specific boards are a hazard in high wind conditions with waves IMO!

Show us the videos of your jibe attempts in those conditions

It is not about jibing, he is catching waves with the short nose just going straight too! As is the case in many other videos!

Marketing convinced you that you needed a foil specific board, so you bought one, and now you are desperately trying to justify your expensive mistake!

And I have certainly thought of getting a foil specific board, when I felt the need to get my rear foot farther outward on my relatively narrow tailed Bolt 135 slalom board. But what I found out is, if the sail is properly trimmed and paired with the appropriate wing, I do not want to move my rear foot farther outward. It was only in over powered conditions, with too big of a wing and a sail that was too big and/or not out-hauled enough, that I felt the need to get my rear foot further away from the rail.

I had the long nose board below back in 2017 when I was at your stage of the foiling journey of learning to gybe.
The nose probably did help with touchdown recoveries when going slowly enough.
But by the end of 2017 I'd cut the nose off. It stifles progression.

You're a beginner foiler - why are you desperate to show that more skilled/experienced foilers are wrong?

, good laugh! Note to self, when you crash repeatedly in 20-30 knots you will be an expert!

Ignorance is bliss

Another view of the conditions that day near shore - the swells were 2m+ 500m out
Gun winger Nik and I had been frothing for an hour when I called it quits. My old mate whiplash was back
He came in changed to a 3m wing and went back out - I grabbed the phone to take the vid.

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Sandman1221 said..

WsurfAustin said..

thedoor said..




Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

Agreed. + more nose length would make it worse IMO. Any length in front of the UJ is dead weight and windage anyway. I only have just enough bow to slog may way home which could take 20 minutes. Otherwise, I would love a 90L board.

Then why do I, a more inexperienced foiler, not crash in the same or worse conditions? I see the nose of my Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board just clear 3 foot waves many times, or skip off the top of those waves. If it was shorter it would catch them, just like we can all see in azymuth's video and many others posted here. You guys just do not want to admit your foil specific boards are a hazard in high wind conditions with waves IMO!

The crash has got nothing to do with "catching the nose". A longer nose at that relative board angle to the wave would bury the bow into the back side of the wave a lot sooner. Not a rake issue either. He's on a 103 mast. He posted the ones that went south being overpowered. Not the 200 He did that were successful with the bow clearing the wave by 2 feet.

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Sandman1221 said..



It is not about jibing, he is catching waves with the short nose just going straight too! As is the case in many other videos!

Marketing convinced you that you needed a foil specific board, so you bought one, and now you are desperately trying to justify your expensive mistake!

And I have certainly thought of getting a foil specific board, when I felt the need to get my rear foot farther outward on my relatively narrow tailed Bolt 135 slalom board. But what I found out is, if the sail is properly trimmed and paired with the appropriate wing, I do not want to move my rear foot farther outward. It was only in over powered conditions, with too big of a wing and a sail that was too big and/or not out-hauled enough, that I felt the need to get my rear foot further away from the rail.

Clearly you don't know much about foil specific boards... hint: it is not about getting your back foot further from the centerline; my foil board has the back foot on the centerline. It is about getting rid of that long nose blowing around in the wind and about getting the mast, rider, and foil closer together. Optimal riding position with a foil is very different than with a fin and the board geometry needs to adjusted to achieve this.

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jdfoils said..

Sandman1221 said..



It is not about jibing, he is catching waves with the short nose just going straight too! As is the case in many other videos!

Marketing convinced you that you needed a foil specific board, so you bought one, and now you are desperately trying to justify your expensive mistake!

And I have certainly thought of getting a foil specific board, when I felt the need to get my rear foot farther outward on my relatively narrow tailed Bolt 135 slalom board. But what I found out is, if the sail is properly trimmed and paired with the appropriate wing, I do not want to move my rear foot farther outward. It was only in over powered conditions, with too big of a wing and a sail that was too big and/or not out-hauled enough, that I felt the need to get my rear foot further away from the rail.

Clearly you don't know much about foil specific boards... hint: it is not about getting your back foot further from the centerline; my foil board has the back foot on the centerline. It is about getting rid of that long nose blowing around in the wind and about getting the mast, rider, and foil closer together. Optimal riding position with a foil is very different than with a fin and the board geometry needs to adjusted to achieve this.

Yawn, oh sorry!

I don't think Sandman understands the metric to imperial wave height conversion.

I think that last video shows just how windy it was I can't believe you could hang with a 4.0 even that long.The whiplash thing becomes very real on days like that

Thanks, JJ, for the fun video because let's face it we all like to see folk eating it

@Sandman it's really getting old your comments, you are taking off from LeeD and its quite frankly boring. It doesn't matter what people post your reply is: Goya Bolt slalom board, AFS and Aerotech.

Very few could even ride that board that JJ is on and to ride a wizard 90 in that extreme of conditions takes balls so maybe show some respect, yes?

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jdfoils said..
Clearly you don't know much about foil specific boards... hint: it is not about getting your back foot further from the centerline; my foil board has the back foot on the centerline.

Eh, sometimes it is. It depends on what kind of foiling one is doing. Just like in the fin world. Some boards work better for their purpose by having the back straps out on a wide rail and others with a single strap in the middle. Blanket generalizations are just that. Sandman was parroting something he'd read on other threads without understanding when it does and doesn't apply.

For me, getting below 190cm isn't worth it. In the conditions I sail 95% of the time, any further reduction in swing weight/windage is nil. However, I'm not sailing in azymuth's conditions rarely if at all. There may be some drawbacks of a much shorter nose - but whatever they are, azymuth feels like the benefits outweigh those drawbacks. I've seen enough of his videos over the years to trust that he's chosen and tuned his gear the way he sees fit.

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Mr Keen said..

Sandman1221 said..

azymuth said..

Sandman1221 said..

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

WsurfAustin said..

thedoor said..




Yeah there are not many riders on the face of the earth that can handle those conditions and I very much doubt they stayed dry

Agreed. + more nose length would make it worse IMO. Any length in front of the UJ is dead weight and windage anyway. I only have just enough bow to slog may way home which could take 20 minutes. Otherwise, I would love a 90L board.

Then why do I, a more inexperienced foiler, not crash in the same or worse conditions? I see the nose of my Bolt 135 L 243 cm long slalom board just clear 3 foot waves many times, or skip off the top of those waves. If it was shorter it would catch them, just like we can all see in azymuth's video and many others posted here. You guys just do not want to admit your foil specific boards are a hazard in high wind conditions with waves IMO!

Show us the videos of your jibe attempts in those conditions

It is not about jibing, he is catching waves with the short nose just going straight too! As is the case in many other videos!

Marketing convinced you that you needed a foil specific board, so you bought one, and now you are desperately trying to justify your expensive mistake!

And I have certainly thought of getting a foil specific board, when I felt the need to get my rear foot farther outward on my relatively narrow tailed Bolt 135 slalom board. But what I found out is, if the sail is properly trimmed and paired with the appropriate wing, I do not want to move my rear foot farther outward. It was only in over powered conditions, with too big of a wing and a sail that was too big and/or not out-hauled enough, that I felt the need to get my rear foot further away from the rail.

I had the long nose board below back in 2017 when I was at your stage of the foiling journey of learning to gybe.
The nose probably did help with touchdown recoveries when going slowly enough.
But by the end of 2017 I'd cut the nose off. It stifles progression.

You're a beginner foiler - why are you desperate to show that more skilled/experienced foilers are wrong?

, good laugh! Note to self, when you crash repeatedly in 20-30 knots you will be an expert!

Ignorance is bliss

LOL