The obsession has reached a point where my 5.7 is no longer giving me the range I want. :-) I have an Aerotech Aerofoil 5.7, which I've been very, very happy with. My thinking is to get the 7.5 version now. However, I also see that the Sailworks Flyer FR in a 7.0 is in the same price neighborhood (actually a little less), and I've read good things about it.

I'd be using it on a Wizard 125 (older blue/white version) and an I76 foil. I presently have an older 460 mast (I couldn't even tell you the brand - it has "Stinger" on the base...), which has been working great on the 5.7. (It's an SDM mast, but the base is SDM and it necks down to somewhere between SDM and RDM up above the base). So, I'd like to continue to use this mast at least for a while. (I've read that the Aerotech sails are pretty accepting/forgiving in terms of mast stiffness...)

I weigh about 135 lbs. My goal with the sail is to get up and onto the foil in lighter winds (than the 5.7). I'm not worried about marginal top-end gains, and in fact, I'd willingly sacrifice top-end for early foiling, and the possibility of completing a jibe w/ the big rig.

I need to keep the cost of the sail in the $600-$700 range. (The Aerotech is $769, the Sailworks is $688)

Thoughts??

the flyers look awesome, but i doubt you could rig it on an SDM.

I think you should be able to find a used 7m sail for much less than that.

Other option would be picking up the ifinity 99 and use your 5.7

I bought a used foil glide 7.0 from a guy that is almost exactly your weight because he said he only really needed the 6.0. He's pretty good at pumping in the light stuff and relatively small higher aspect foil though, and personally I take as much power as I can get as I am more like 210. He then moved to sailworks flyers, which a few around here ride and tend to really like (I don't know about the SDM issue).

The 99 will help but also a more mid-high aspect front would help with pumping too. Lower end is better on the ptm926 than the i76 even though the ptm has less area. I have my old 99 laying around somewhere. Slingshot did make a more mid aspect wing that fits the hoverglide fuse but I haven't heard of anyone using it for windfoil so no clue if that would be more like the ptm series or different. I wouldn't buy one without trying. And money on a larger sail will help a lot quicker than a bigger foil I think.

The lightweight I mentioned was using I think the 800SB front in light stuff then he moved down to 725 then to phantom wings. Another lightweight I think uses 5.7 or close to it as her biggest but she's like 100lbs. She rides something sub 1000 in light stuff as she says she doesn't need the lift and completes most of her jibes on foil.

Thanks, All - TBH, I hadn't really thought much about moving to a larger foil, but that makes sense to consider, as well. (And I could get the I99 for around the same price as one of these larger sails...)

Truth be told, I'm not a big fan of huge sails overall - from my finning days, I had a 6.0, and an 8.0 as my bigger sails, and TBH, while the larger sizes were my most-practically-used sails, in terms of actual time on the water, they were just super cumbersome (to rig, to carry around, to sail, etc)

When I took up foiling, I swore to myself that I'd never again sail anything larger than a 6.0, but here I am contemplating things in the 7.x range...

Just a few pounds more than you (140). Some observations:

1) the i99 will get you going earlier but those big wings have significantly less glide and in the lulls will drop off when a smaller, more efficient wing will keep going. I'm more in the zoom-zoom camp in light wind and much prefer going bigger board/sail and much more efficient wing. The added efficiency isn't only about speed, though, it also pays off in glide (lulls) and being able to go more places up and downwind.
2) I know money is important but the handling for us smaller folk with an rdm on smaller sails is really nice. Keep your eyes out for used masts. It's easy to make choices around your current gear that are basically like putting caulk on a crack instead of just fixing it.
3) If money is really an issue (it is for most of us), look for a used freeride 2 cam sail around the 7m size. An older (something this century) sail will gladly take an sdm and often were higher aspect than current freeride sails making them more in planform like current foil sails. If money were less of a concern, for your needs I'd definitely be looking at something like the flyer/flyer fr or foilglide with an rdm.
My current "freeride" 7.0 is an S2Maui Osprey which is more rigid and probably not as early flying as these but it's use case is a bit different (11-25 mph). It takes an SDM.
4) The only major drawback of jibing more efficient gear in light air, imho, is dealing with entering the jibe at faster than windspeed in the lowest of winds. It takes a bit of a different technique discussed ad nauseum elsewhere on here.

Me on a freeride 2 cam 6.7 and 1100cm wing (88cm wide) a few years back. I'd been off the water for a few months so really happy to be back and, by chance, happened upon a windsurfing friend in a power boat while I was out

I'm same weight as you, my biggest sail now 5.1 cypher, I could probably get away with 4.4
as my max sail and the only people that have slight advantage on me are some really good guys on 9.0 race foil sails and race boards. Your problem, providing your technique is good, you are using 4 year old foil design,your board is a little big and heavy, sails need to be light and efficient for foil too.

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jims said..
Thanks, All - TBH, I hadn't really thought much about moving to a larger foil, but that makes sense to consider, as well. (And I could get the I99 for around the same price as one of these larger sails...)

Truth be told, I'm not a big fan of huge sails overall - from my finning days, I had a 6.0, and an 8.0 as my bigger sails, and TBH, while the larger sizes were my most-practically-used sails, in terms of actual time on the water, they were just super cumbersome (to rig, to carry around, to sail, etc)

When I took up foiling, I swore to myself that I'd never again sail anything larger than a 6.0, but here I am contemplating things in the 7.x range...

If you don't like big sails then a bigger mid aspect foil is a no brainer.

So maybe spending a little more on a G-series lower (+ adapter for my HG masts) might be better than spending $700 on a large sail?

I presently have a Wizard 125 and a Wizard 105, using the HG I75 on the W125 and the HG I65 on the W105. The HG I65 is listed as a 5.16 aspect ratio, so I guess that's approaching mid-aspect, but certainly still a good bit lower aspect than something like the G900.

If going with a G-series foil, what would make sense, given the above boards/foils already in my collection?

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jims said..
Thanks, All - TBH, I hadn't really thought much about moving to a larger foil, but that makes sense to consider, as well. (And I could get the I99 for around the same price as one of these larger sails...)

Truth be told, I'm not a big fan of huge sails overall - from my finning days, I had a 6.0, and an 8.0 as my bigger sails, and TBH, while the larger sizes were my most-practically-used sails, in terms of actual time on the water, they were just super cumbersome (to rig, to carry around, to sail, etc)

When I took up foiling, I swore to myself that I'd never again sail anything larger than a 6.0, but here I am contemplating things in the 7.x range...

www.mackiteboarding.com/2020-slingshot-infinity-99cm-carbon-wing/

I think big sails do work better with smaller higher aspect wings, so not sure you will love the 76 on 7m

FYI: this is infinity 99 on a 5.7 from a few years ago, was a great light wind combo, but got out of hand when wind picked up

www.instagram.com/p/CFQrDv-j_aK/

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jims said..
So maybe spending a little more on a G-series lower (+ adapter for my HG masts) might be better than spending $700 on a large sail?

I presently have a Wizard 125 and a Wizard 105, using the HG I75 on the W125 and the HG I65 on the W105. The HG I65 is listed as a 5.16 aspect ratio, so I guess that's approaching mid-aspect, but certainly still a good bit lower aspect than something like the G900.

If going with a G-series foil, what would make sense, given the above boards/foils already in my collection?

That adapter for hover glide to phantasm fuse may be hard to come by I was looking for a friend a couple of months ago, Slingshot was out maybe a shop might have one.

The Flyer FR 7.0 rigs on a SDM 460 mast. You can check the chart at sailworks.com

So, the decision seems to be coming down to a 7.0 or 7.5 sail on my HG I76 foil, OR sticking with a 5.7 as my 'big' sail, and upgrading to a G900 lower. (It looks like the 872 fuse is what's needed for windsurf foiling?)

It looks for roughly the same amount of money, I can either go the sail route, or the foil/lower route - both are not happening together this year, however. :o)

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jims said..
So, the decision seems to be coming down to a 7.0 or 7.5 sail on my HG I76 foil, OR sticking with a 5.7 as my 'big' sail, and upgrading to a G900 lower. (It looks like the 872 fuse is what's needed for windsurf foiling?)

It looks for roughly the same amount of money, I can either go the sail route, or the foil/lower route - both are not happening together this year, however. :o)

Yeah, it's not that simple. You should get the Flyer FR 7.0 and it'll rig fine on your mast. That's not the end of the story though, because you'll now have a MUCH bigger windrange and in fact you'll be able to hold onto it even in conditions when the Aerofoil is already starting to feel big - it's just much slipperier if you downhaul it enough. So, then you're going to want a foil which goes as fast as the FR wants to go, and that's not going to be anything in the HG lineup. It's certainly not the i99, which is really a big-boys' equalizer (I kinda like it but I weigh 225) and utterly useless for someone your size - you'll be fighting to control it all the time.

For now, though, the FR over your i76 will be a big upgrade. The new high aspect foil can wait until next year. The FR isn't awful on a fin, either, if that matters...

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jims said..
So, the decision seems to be coming down to a 7.0 or 7.5 sail on my HG I76 foil, OR sticking with a 5.7 as my 'big' sail, and upgrading to a G900 lower. (It looks like the 872 fuse is what's needed for windsurf foiling?)

It looks for roughly the same amount of money, I can either go the sail route, or the foil/lower route - both are not happening together this year, however. :o)

I'll share my experience at 140lbs... I started on the I76. The PFI730 is my main all around goto foil. I've also ridden the G800.
A 7.0 sounds huge to me, but It's probably specific to my conditions. We don't have consistent light winds where I can use large sails much.
For me, it seems there is a very narrow wind range I can use larger sails. It may be 5 knots gusting 18 knots. I can't fly on my 5.3 (my largest sail) in 5 knots and then when the 18 hits, I'm way over powered. I usually get the most fun rigging for the max wind speed. and slog in the lull if I can't get to the next wind line. If it were me, I would go for the bigger wing, but I'm also biased to using small sails as they are so fun and flickable. I can't imagine a 7.0 on the I76 unless with winds were light and consistent. I think a lot of it is about your local conditions as to the best route to take.

just my .02

if you move to a 7.0 the board might feel too narrow, see if you can try before you buy.
I had to build myself a platform to widen the tail, eventually I gave up and now my biggest is a 6.4

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powersloshin said..
if you move to a 7.0 the board might feel too narrow, see if you can try before you buy.
I had to build myself a platform to widen the tail, eventually I gave up and now my biggest is a 6.4

Sort-of related: I can uphaul and ride the freestyle 115 with a 7.0 and I think it has a narrower tail? It's non-optimal with the tri-strap setup but I found I was able to move both feet outboard when going harder upwind, where my rear heel was right at the rail, and it didn't pose significant problems.

So, first off, THANK YOU to everyone for the information, advice, suggestions, etc - this group is an amazing source of experience, and provides a wide range of very helpful information!

I pulled the trigger and ordered the Sailworks Flyer FR 7.0. In addition to talking to the helpful folks here, I talked with 2 other very experienced foilers that I know (as well as Bruce at Sailworks - more on that below), and the general sense from all of these sources was that the sail would be a good upgrade now, and that upgrading the foil when I next have an opportunity would be the logical next step, and that the FR and a mid-aspect foil would ultimately play very well together.

I was torn between the Aerofoil 7.5 and the FR 7.0. I ultimately went with the FR due to the fact that it is actually a little smaller (I was concerned about the general cumbersomeness of a large sail), and that it has 3 cams, as opposed to the Aerofoil's 2 cams (which I am hoping will provide some extra range and stability). The fact that the FR was over $100 cheaper after shipping also played a small, but real, role in the thinking.

I'd called Sailworks because they had a well-used 2022 FR 7.0 for sale in the used section ($375 if anyone is looking for one!), and I happened to get Bruce on the phone. (I had no idea at the time that Bruce is the owner and sail designer at Sailworks!) He spent a generous amount of time with me on the phone, discussing the used sail, new sail options, plusses and minuses of each, etc. While he wasn't 'selling' me, he made very good points about the options (used vs new, Flyer vs FR) - he actually initially suggested the 'legacy' Flyer, given that I'm on the I76 foil, but agreed that if my ultimate plan is to upgrade to a mid-aspect foil, that the FR would be the better forward-thinking choice (and that it would work well enough with my I76 in the meantime, just that it would want to go faster than the I76 will go, and I that might sacrifice 2-3 mph of low-end wind speed range on the FR vs the legacy Flyer, but TBH, if it's only blowing 6-7 mph, I'm not going to be rigging up and going out, anyway... In addition to providing what sounded like very solid advice on sail choice, I was also impressed that Bruce took so much time and was so patient with my questions.

So, the plan is to start saving up for a G900 lower, but work with the I76 in the mean time. I'll report back here how it all goes, which I'll find out in early April when I make my first Spring trip to Hatteras. (Watch, it'll be nuking every day I'm down there, and I'll never actually get to try out the new sail, Lol...)

Thanks Again for everyone's input on this - I truly appreciate it - I felt like this was a well-reasoned decision, vs an ignorant knee-jerk, due to all the great information I received!

I've let Bruce(Sailworks) guide me once on a front wing foil selection and another time on a windfoil sail selection. I was pleased on both occasions. I hope the outcome of your windfoil sail selection will be pleasing as mine.

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jims said..
So, first off, THANK YOU to everyone for the information, advice, suggestions, etc - this group is an amazing source of experience, and provides a wide range of very helpful information!

I pulled the trigger and ordered the Sailworks Flyer FR 7.0. In addition to talking to the helpful folks here, I talked with 2 other very experienced foilers that I know (as well as Bruce at Sailworks - more on that below), and the general sense from all of these sources was that the sail would be a good upgrade now, and that upgrading the foil when I next have an opportunity would be the logical next step, and that the FR and a mid-aspect foil would ultimately play very well together.

I was torn between the Aerofoil 7.5 and the FR 7.0. I ultimately went with the FR due to the fact that it is actually a little smaller (I was concerned about the general cumbersomeness of a large sail), and that it has 3 cams, as opposed to the Aerofoil's 2 cams (which I am hoping will provide some extra range and stability). The fact that the FR was over $100 cheaper after shipping also played a small, but real, role in the thinking.

I'd called Sailworks because they had a well-used 2022 FR 7.0 for sale in the used section ($375 if anyone is looking for one!), and I happened to get Bruce on the phone. (I had no idea at the time that Bruce is the owner and sail designer at Sailworks!) He spent a generous amount of time with me on the phone, discussing the used sail, new sail options, plusses and minuses of each, etc. While he wasn't 'selling' me, he made very good points about the options (used vs new, Flyer vs FR) - he actually initially suggested the 'legacy' Flyer, given that I'm on the I76 foil, but agreed that if my ultimate plan is to upgrade to a mid-aspect foil, that the FR would be the better forward-thinking choice (and that it would work well enough with my I76 in the meantime, just that it would want to go faster than the I76 will go, and I that might sacrifice 2-3 mph of low-end wind speed range on the FR vs the legacy Flyer, but TBH, if it's only blowing 6-7 mph, I'm not going to be rigging up and going out, anyway... In addition to providing what sounded like very solid advice on sail choice, I was also impressed that Bruce took so much time and was so patient with my questions.

So, the plan is to start saving up for a G900 lower, but work with the I76 in the mean time. I'll report back here how it all goes, which I'll find out in early April when I make my first Spring trip to Hatteras. (Watch, it'll be nuking every day I'm down there, and I'll never actually get to try out the new sail, Lol...)

Thanks Again for everyone's input on this - I truly appreciate it - I felt like this was a well-reasoned decision, vs an ignorant knee-jerk, due to all the great information I received!

I think you made the right call. At some point you will want to upgrade your foil in the meantime you could try it with the infinity 63 if the 7.0 and i76 are too much

slingshotsports.com/collections/foil-sale/products/hover-glide-infinity-carbon-wing-63cm

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thedoor said..

I think you made the right call. At some point you will want to upgrade your foil in the meantime you could try it with the infinity 63 if the 7.0 and i76 are too much

slingshotsports.com/collections/foil-sale/products/hover-glide-infinity-carbon-wing-63cm

Yikes - for $169, I feel like I should buy it just for the price, Lol! :-)

How would this compare to the HG I65, in terms of lower wind range? (Would it make sense to have the I76, I65, and I63?) (I guess also in the context of me ultimately wanting to move to the G900 lower...)

I bought a used 3.5 sail for my daughter from Bruce last summer. He recommended I get a new one as it was not that much more money. My daughter shredded it first run out. Should have taken Bruce's advice. I have an old custom flyer 7.0 that is incredibly light.

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jims said..

thedoor said..

I think you made the right call. At some point you will want to upgrade your foil in the meantime you could try it with the infinity 63 if the 7.0 and i76 are too much

slingshotsports.com/collections/foil-sale/products/hover-glide-infinity-carbon-wing-63cm

Yikes - for $169, I feel like I should buy it just for the price, Lol! :-)

How would this compare to the HG I65, in terms of lower wind range? (Would it make sense to have the I76, I65, and I63?) (I guess also in the context of me ultimately wanting to move to the G900 lower...)

I was never a big fan of the original i65 but looks like the v2 i65 has smaller wingtips, which I expect I would like much more.

slingshotsports.com/products/hover-glide-infinity-wing-65cm-v2-foil

If I had to guess the i63 would have a slightly better low end and lower top speed compared to the i65, and yes they would probably overlap quite a bit.

G900 would be your lightwind foil I guess what are you gonna use when it picks up G700?

my I65 is black with orange, so I guess that's the V1?

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thedoor said..

G900 would be your lightwind foil I guess what are you gonna use when it picks up G700?

You just had to go there, eh?? ;-) TBH, I have no plan below the G900 at the moment, other than the I65. I'm reasonably certain that once I get the G900, I'll fall in love with that, and determine that the only real option is to get a smaller mid-aspect wing for higher winds, Lol. (But thanks for just sort of pushing that along a little bit... Really appreciate it... ).

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jims said..
my I65 is black with orange, so I guess that's the V1?

thedoor said..

G900 would be your lightwind foil I guess what are you gonna use when it picks up G700?

You just had to go there, eh?? ;-) TBH, I have no plan below the G900 at the moment, other than the I65. I'm reasonably certain that once I get the G900, I'll fall in love with that, and determine that the only real option is to get a smaller mid-aspect wing for higher winds, Lol. (But thanks for just sort of pushing that along a little bit... Really appreciate it... ).

Yep that would be V1, do you like it? it should be small enough to handle the 7m

If you want a do it all wing wouldn't it make sense to go G800 esp now you have the 7m inbound and you are not the biggest dude. I def think you will want to pair a smaller wing with the G900 and don't see you wanting to go back from G900 to i65.

Depending on available $ a more advanced foil set might be on the cards too. I started on SS set with a SS130 board and it transformed my experience coming off a formula width board. I went over to patrik foilset & 145board and transformed experience again. While I was flying about on a 900/250 wing combo , others were on the SBSC with 1700fronts and they were 25kg lighter and very good sailors. But we were sailing about the same time. So, a more modern set might give the experience you're looking for and also allow further growth. Future proof your kit I foil on my slapping sails 5.0-7.4, 3 cams. 750,900 wings & 190 stab

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BSN101 said..
Depending on available $ a more advanced foil set might be on the cards too. I started on SS set with a SS130 board and it transformed my experience coming off a formula width board. I went over to patrik foilset & 145board and transformed experience again. While I was flying about on a 900/250 wing combo , others were on the SBSC with 1700fronts and they were 25kg lighter and very good sailors. But we were sailing about the same time. So, a more modern set might give the experience you're looking for and also allow further growth. Future proof your kit I foil on my slapping sails 5.0-7.4, 3 cams. 750,900 wings & 190 stab

I said it earlier and I'll say it again by agreeing with you. Pretty much all my friends that started on really big wings ("because this is just for light wind and I'll use a fin when it's blowing harder") have, as their skills improved moved to smaller, more efficient wings with something like a mid aspect 12-1400 as their lighwind wing. Almost as early flying (we're talking about maybe, maybe a kt at the bottom end) but much better control if winds increase, better speed, better glide, etc. I know speed isn't everything but, in light wind, it helps both apparent wind and getting to the next puff if you are in a lull.

These are good points - perhaps the G900 is more wing than I need? I've got very limited experience with different foils, so welcome suggestions. I've sailed the snot out of the i76, and it's really all I know. (I've not spent enough time on the i65 to even really develop an opinion at this point - had it out once in very underpowered conditions, and never even managed to get up on it for any meaningful period of time.) I've really been counting on the i65 becoming my higher-wind foil, though, as the i76 doesn't like to stay in the water when I get overpowered. I'll hopefully get some actual powered-up time on the i65 in April, and can then determine how it feels when I'm on my 3.7 and 4.7 sails. From there, I can hopefully get a sense of where it makes sense to go next foil-wise. If the i65 is decent enough in powered-up sailing, then I'd lean toward getting something larger (in the context of me being a lightweight...) for lighter winds, but maybe an all-arounder would be a smarter move, given that I'll have the snazzy new 3-cam 7.0?

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Paducah said..

BSN101 said..
Depending on available $ a more advanced foil set might be on the cards too. I started on SS set with a SS130 board and it transformed my experience coming off a formula width board. I went over to patrik foilset & 145board and transformed experience again. While I was flying about on a 900/250 wing combo , others were on the SBSC with 1700fronts and they were 25kg lighter and very good sailors. But we were sailing about the same time. So, a more modern set might give the experience you're looking for and also allow further growth. Future proof your kit I foil on my slapping sails 5.0-7.4, 3 cams. 750,900 wings & 190 stab

I said it earlier and I'll say it again by agreeing with you. Pretty much all my friends that started on really big wings ("because this is just for light wind and I'll use a fin when it's blowing harder") have, as their skills improved moved to smaller, more efficient wings with something like a mid aspect 12-1400 as their lighwind wing. Almost as early flying (we're talking about maybe, maybe a kt at the bottom end) but much better control if winds increase, better speed, better glide, etc. I know speed isn't everything but, in light wind, it helps both apparent wind and getting to the next puff if you are in a lull.

The light guys here use 1000&1100x300 SB wings while I'm on 900x190 wings. Again a modern new set might allow you to progress further than you think. My sail is usuall 0.5-1.0m larger than light guy and within 0.5 to the other heavier guy. But I can also pin down a bigger sail when it picks up as I'm on 3 cam sails which have great range slapping & FlyNoDie-ing. I'll be looking for a 550-650 next. Happy flying

So much for willpower... I've ordered a G900 lower and a used G800 front wing. Also ordered the Hoverglide-to-Phantasm fuse adapter, as I have 3 different length HG masts, and can't also be buying a new collection of masts ATM.

Any thoughts on any additional hardware I'm likely to need, if any? (I assume I'll probably need some bolts to connect the fuse adapter to the Phantasm fuse? And maybe bolts other than my current HG fuse-to-mast bolts for connecting the adapter to the HG mast? I've got the needed top-end stuff for my Tuttle box on the Wizards.

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jims said..
So much for willpower... I've ordered a G900 lower and a used G800 front wing. Also ordered the Hoverglide-to-Phantasm fuse adapter, as I have 3 different length HG masts, and can't also be buying a new collection of masts ATM.

Any thoughts on any additional hardware I'm likely to need, if any? (I assume I'll probably need some bolts to connect the fuse adapter to the Phantasm fuse? And maybe bolts other than my current HG fuse-to-mast bolts for connecting the adapter to the HG mast? I've got the needed top-end stuff for my Tuttle box on the Wizards.

FWIW
When I bought my Phantasm fuse to HG adapter, it came with the needed fasteners.

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WsurfAustin said..
When I bought my Phantasm fuse to HG adapter, it came with the needed fasteners.

How has that worked for you? Is it a pretty solid connection?

Seems like it'll be a minor pain when I want to change masts (depending on where I sail, the depth is different, so I need to switch mast lengths), as it looks like I'll need to unscrew the fuse, then unscrew the adapter, put the adapter on the other mast, then attach to the fuse, but not a huge deal - just an inconvenience.

But, I've been wondering if it's a nice solid connection, or if it's a little bit janky... (Can't be any more janky than my flopping-around-on-the-fuse HG wings - that was a horrible design!)