Without getting in brands this what I reckon.dwing seems like pins might just have the edge.however wave bumps as in the going part of bop, the square just kill it. The bigger and thicker the better.

In the ocean your looking for that trough in front. Just outside or in the wave zone its what's behind you
so ocean bumps_ pin or pulled in.
surf bumps big squares

Or am I tripping.

Again

Rounded pin.. square/squash.. diamond or swallow.. IMO it's like taking colours.. You'd never know what's back there if you didn't look..

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DavidJohn said..
Rounded pin.. square/squash.. diamond or swallow.. IMO it's like taking colours.. You'd never know what's back there if you didn't look..

but there's a difference dj. I can't separate my tomy 12'6 pin and the fanatic falcon 12'6 dwing- maybe, just maybe the tomy in lesser winds. paddling out about the same too.

however the going in part outside or in the wave zone, the fanatic just blows the tomy away. the fanatic has a big fat wide tail.


the first tomy I had made and a big wide tail too and that used to take of like a unregistered dog going in.


so, I can't agree with you at all except the colour part

I'm really hearing DJ..really it's not hydrodynamics that sells boards.....we're now heading down the old sailboarding route where bullsh$t baffles brains.. and that's all about marketing ...

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bradsdubs said..
I'm really hearing DJ..really it's not hydrodynamics that sells boards.....we're now heading down the old sailboarding route where bullsh$t baffles brains.. and that's all about marketing ...

I really don't understand what you are saying there. I also didn't want to mention brands. I ended up doing so because most would have seen my tomy photos and the falcon for comparison


gee, and to think some might be interested something that wasn't a pimp for the latest board. doh silly me.

Im not sure which one i think catches the bumps easier, if i had to chose i would say the pin tail as it allows you to bounce into some runs with the narrow tail going under water then the bouyancy of it brings it up and shoots it forward with speed.

I do find the wider tails more enjoyable to downwind though as i find it easier to turn and surf with them. Most of our downwinders on the coast have a lot of backwash off the beach so i find the board i can manouvre into the conflicting bumps the easiest is ultimatly the fastest for me.

But in perfect straight runs i think the pins are faster, also in sub 15knot conditions i find them faster.

Stability of the wide square tail in the surf vs the speed of the pintail while gliding

so whats a good compromise?? a wider pin??
This actually really interests me as in moreton bay / brissy we don't have to worry about coming in the surf, our runs finish often at boat ramps/creeks etc. So a pin tail really might be the better option like the falcon 14's tail. don't see many 12'6 with pins though yeah?

what I'm finding is the right square tail seems to get surf type bumps better as compared to a pintail. surf type bumps are more caught like surfing as a opposed to follow the trough type ocean/sea bumps

A good question...

I find that I can change direction quicker when chasing and gliding in the runners with a Pintail. Its also easier for me to manage the board on the wave when returning to shore. I have both wide square & pintail boards, both 14' long & sub- 27" wide. I use the Wide Square on tame seas & the pintail when its more challenging. The Pin doesn't unbalance the board when the wave starts to carry, whereas the wide square tends to tease and pitch the rear of the board more than the pintail on sloppy and cross-swell seas. I do fall off the pin more often though.

I don't race or compete.

I guess I'd always though the wide tail would be the go for ocean downwinding. A bit of extra stability and planing surface at the back surely allows you to get back on the board earlier and keep the nose out of the trough?

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surfgrub said..
A good question...

I find that I can change direction quicker when chasing and gliding in the runners with a Pintail. Its also easier for me to manage the board on the wave when returning to shore. I have both wide square & pintail boards, both 14' long & sub- 27" wide. I use the Wide Square on tame seas & the pintail when its more challenging. The Pin doesn't unbalance the board when the wave starts to carry, whereas the wide square tends to tease and pitch the rear of the board more than the pintail on sloppy and cross-swell seas. I do fall off the pin more often though.

I don't race or compete.

thats why i think a squares a bit more of a goer bop style. maybe every little weird thing happening back there the sq reacts too.


pins are very smooth running in the ocean. i've been running this board in anything from 10 knots to a full on ocean blowup

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laceys lane said..

surfgrub said..
A good question...

I find that I can change direction quicker when chasing and gliding in the runners with a Pintail. Its also easier for me to manage the board on the wave when returning to shore. I have both wide square & pintail boards, both 14' long & sub- 27" wide. I use the Wide Square on tame seas & the pintail when its more challenging. The Pin doesn't unbalance the board when the wave starts to carry, whereas the wide square tends to tease and pitch the rear of the board more than the pintail on sloppy and cross-swell seas. I do fall off the pin more often though.

I don't race or compete.

thats why i think a squares a bit more of a goer bop style. maybe every little weird thing happening back there the sq reacts too.


pins are very smooth running in the ocean. i've been running this board in anything from 10 knots to a full on ocean blowup

Sold yourself out with this last post mate....

my board my design- nobody makes it, no one to sell to. the dc sticker might have thrown you. my other tomys just have tomy. but to keep you hppy here are some other pin tails

IMO the tail shape on the Ace.. Fanatic.. and some DC's are not actually a pin tail even though they look like it from above.. They are a very special pin-tail like shape but they have nothing in common with a normal pin tail and the reason for their odd shape has mostly to do with the nose shape along with keeping the tail free of wrapping water witch is the opposite to a surfboards pintail.. Very interesting indeed..

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DavidJohn said..
IMO the tail shape on the Ace.. Fanatic.. and some DC's are not actually a pin tail even though they look like it from above.. They are a very special pin-tail like shape but they have nothing in common with a normal pin tail and the reason for their odd shape has mostly to do with the nose shape along with keeping the tail free of wrapping water witch is the opposite to a surfboards pintail.. Very interesting indeed..

Totally agree...

The shape appears more in response to the tail releasing from the water drag.

Got some serious -V- & rocker in that board Lacey, it looks like it would be quite controllable to ride on a bumpy ocean.

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surfgrub said..

DavidJohn said..
IMO the tail shape on the Ace.. Fanatic.. and some DC's are not actually a pin tail even though they look like it from above.. They are a very special pin-tail like shape but they have nothing in common with a normal pin tail and the reason for their odd shape has mostly to do with the nose shape along with keeping the tail free of wrapping water witch is the opposite to a surfboards pintail.. Very interesting indeed..

Totally agree...

The shape appears more in response to the tail releasing from the water drag.

Got some serious -V- & rocker in that board Lacey, it looks like it would be quite controllable to ride on a bumpy ocean.

Im not sure i agree/understand what you guys are saying? I always thought that pin tails in both sup and standup kinda act like a fin in that the smaller surface area of the tail requires less force to overcome the bouyancy, with the tail sitting lower in the water it holds the board allot straighter. Thats why pin tail surfboards have longer drawn out turns, and pin tail race boards dont allow you to turn as well when downwinding.

Keep in mind boards like the ace and falcon have the fin a long way forwards thus allowing it to rotate with a twist of the hips as compared to say the naishes which have the fin at the back of the board thus allowing more of a bottom turn feel when downwinding.

When it comes to release from drag the narrower tail means less wetted area/contact area with the water thus less drag in that way, is it significantly less, i dont believe so. Also the sharper the rails the cleaner the release, the sharper the edge underneath the less turbulance as the water does not stick to the board.

This is my understanding, feel free to correct me.

For me the easiest downwind board in existance is the 12'6 fanatic falcon, the wide tail allows it to surf/turn well, the sharp under rail allows clean release, the large projected area from the nose and tail allow it to plane easy, and the booffy nose makes it super forgiving in that you dont need any skill to get it to work. I just wish fanatic made the 14 in the same shape, or starby made the old coast runner narrower than 28. Then again, the easiest board to downwind is not always the fastest, and whats suited to one person is not always suited to all paddlers

I'm not good at putting my thoughts into writing but I will try.. Firstly the shape is irelivenyt depending on the tail width.. If you have a 14' 6" DW board with a true pin tail like the older SIC and Bill Foote boards.. Then chop the last 6" off.. You could have a square, squash, diamond, swallow or round shape in that short section that's maybe less than 6" across even though a 6" piece was cut of******epending on the tail width.. IMO this shape will have no effect whats so ever on the boards performance.. A square.. squash or round.. is safer and less prone to damage than having the points of a swallow tail.. The big SIC bullets have about the last 2" cut off their pintail shape so if you look close you could almost call it a square tail (I wouldn't) Even a big chunky tail like on the AllStar could be another shape and have no real effect on the boards performance.. Where this shape can effect the boards performance is in most surfing boards but it's more about the outline and width of the tail.. along with rail shape and rocker.. The actual tail shape when viewed from above has the least effect..

The Ace is a very different concept.. and it's all got to do with the big 'boof nose'.. When a boof nose hits a wave or chop it can not pierce through like most other boards in particular piercing hull boards.. So the boof nose can only go up.. Part because of the volume.. and partly because of the outline and spoon shape.. When the nose is constantly getting pushed up.. and you are standing in the middle.. What's happening at the other end of the board? .. It's also going up and down.. and it needs to have a narrow pin-tail like shape with high rail sides to allow move up and down.. and not allow water to flow over when it goes up and down.. So.. an Ace will not work anywhere near as well as it does if it had a wide square tail (because this would stop the nose moving up and down).. and a thin tail would also constantly have water flowing over it and then draining off and over it again causing drag.. This tail moving up and down is why the Ace and Fanatic have very high rails near the tail.. and also why they need to put the fin more forward.. What they loose in tracking they gain in the pin-tail like shape.. I'm no expert so this is just my thoughts.. Not saying I'm right.. just saying what I think..

There are 2 separate things here I think.

1) It is so dependant on what your looking for in a downwind board as RJK mentioned. We all know that there is no magic board that does everything 100% there is always a compromise and for some a "good" downwind board may be something that is super stable that they can open ocean paddle and comfortably walk around on without much effort, however this type of board is usually a bit slower. For others a board that is super fast however might require a bit more skill and possibly even walking the deck more might be that "good" board. RJK's good board and DJ's good board are most like 2 totally different things.

2) I definitely don't think that you can generalise every board by looking at the tail shape. You can't say every board with a pin tail will turn better or catches bumps better than all square tails or visa versa. You really need to take into consideration the rest of the boards shape as DJ mentioned the nose and rails shapes can have a huge impact on the way that the tails and boards as a whole performs.

All in all it comes down to what you want out of a board... Speed or comfort or a bit of both along with, body weight, experience and conditions.
For anyone looking for a new ocean board, head into your local store and demo some boards for yourself and make up your own mind :)

Cheers,
Marcel

Hey RJK,

I marginally agree. A 12'6 turns and is more responsive to surfing & paddling a sloppy sea. However, won't give the overall performance of a 14'er - regardless the latest plan-shapes. Hence, the popularity of 14'ers in this category. I have a 12'6, & I've paddled BoPs (State & National event winner brands & models) on DW too - I find them more energy taxing than 14'ers. They release really well, mostly a little too well for me.

14' pintail DW boards apparently need real volume at the tail as well. I have been told first-hand by a board developer that his pintail pre-production boards just didn't work with a low-vol pin, therefore they beefed it up & now it works a treat.

Longer drawn out 'controllable & progressive feel' turns are what a pintail does for me. Watch Kelly & Co. on their pintails in big surf - still doing big time moves, etc (not as minutely tight) as they do on their squaretails . However, can more control the board in the big swell surf, hence their preference in big seas...

I use both squashtail & pintails in my shortboard quiver, depending on the 'surf' conditions.

My favourite DW board is presently a pintail. It has a relatively low rocker, narrowing plan shape & thru' the tail. It gives me greater feel and control in a cross-swell trailing sea, surfs better, than my square tail 14'er does. The square that I have (both are 2014 models, same brand & width) is more challenging to ride in the same sea. However, is much faster on calm seas.

I also think DJs descriptions in his last response are on the money too. I'm also of the type that goes by feel, not so much by science.

Rgd's,

G...


I also think we've now gotten too far into it - contrary to Lacey's requirement.

laceys lane.....Beautiful looking board that 'blue 14er