does a more up right fin have less drive compared to a more raked fin?

I know a more up right fin is more pivoty by was wondering about drive.

More to do with fin base. Simply put, the larger the base, the more drive. See C-Drives as an example.

Also read up here: www.boardcave.com.au/the-surfers-corner/the-surfboard-fin-guide

An example of upright fins with no rake, the fins made by Cheyne Horan:

www.cheynehoran.com.au/fins/



(I used the starfin as a single fin, but alas never tried my EZ3 thruster set, as I had discovered the Quobba and had no motivation anymore to test non-Quobba fins. Plus my EZ3 set was in an awful soft plastic)

Compared to a raked fin:
- they will be more efficient: the raked tip has a long surface, which is hard to foil properly, hence lots of friction and more fin is in a turbulent wake.
- they will engage in the turn more suddenly and frankly
- at the end of the turn, they can feel twitchy, as they lack the "damping" of the raked part that kind of prevent a sudden stall, transitions are more progressive. This was a drawback of the famous "spitfire" fighter places in WWII by the way. This is why they can feel lacking drive: this "twitchyness" can make you oversteer or stall at the end of the turn, killing your speed.
- when you push on them during the turn, their center of resistance is closer to the board (less torque on the ankle) and stays forward. A lot of people like to feel they can leverage on the raked part

My opinion is that they are quite unique - and tricky - to ride as single or twin fins, but the "twichyness" is countered when used as thrusters or quads. The rear fins act as "stabilisers", replacing the role of the rake. This is why you see some quad sets having no rake on the rear fins, what is called a "controller" setup. The rake on the front fin gives you the traditional positive feel underfoot to push on, while the rear fins let the tail loose to make the board more lively.
So, basically, single of twin upright fins not so much lack drive than can feel unpredictable in hairy situations.

I even cut out the raked part of my rear Quobba fins to end up with the best quad setup I ever had: my tail is then so much looser that I can easily put the board on the rail with no latency:

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colas said..
An example of upright fins with no rake, the fins made by Cheyne Horan:

www.cheynehoran.com.au/fins/



(I used the starfin as a single fin, but alas never tried my EZ3 thruster set, as I had discovered the Quobba and had no motivation anymore to test non-Quobba fins. Plus my EZ3 set was in an awful soft plastic)

Compared to a raked fin:
- they will be more efficient: the raked tip has a long surface, which is hard to foil properly, hence lots of friction and more fin is in a turbulent wake.
- they will engage in the turn more suddenly and frankly
- at the end of the turn, they can feel twitchy, as they lack the "damping" of the raked part that kind of prevent a sudden stall, transitions are more progressive. This was a drawback of the famous "spitfire" fighter places in WWII by the way. This is why they can feel lacking drive: this "twitchyness" can make you oversteer or stall at the end of the turn, killing your speed.
- when you push on them during the turn, their center of resistance is closer to the board (less torque on the ankle) and stays forward. A lot of people like to feel they can leverage on the raked part

My opinion is that they are quite unique - and tricky - to ride as single or twin fins, but the "twichyness" is countered when used as thrusters or quads. The rear fins act as "stabilisers", replacing the role of the rake. This is why you see some quad sets having no rake on the rear fins, what is called a "controller" setup. The rake on the front fin gives you the traditional positive feel underfoot to push on, while the rear fins let the tail loose to make the board more lively.
So, basically, single of twin upright fins not so much lack drive than can feel unpredictable in hairy situations.

I even cut out the raked part of my rear Quobba fins to end up with the best quad setup I ever had: my tail is then so much looser that I can easily put the board on the rail with no latency:

Thanks for this clear explanation colas!
I don't know squat about fins and why they do what they do,
but... I know what I like, and this helps me understand why I like certain set-ups.

I finally got my Quobba set while I was in Florida, but couldn't really feel the magic until I got home and got waves where I could feel the fins more.

My video on the 8'8 SP25, I was using the Quobba's and the board blew me away.... on my 8'9 Kanga the day before, I used a standard set of fins because the Quobba's didn't slip in the fin box easily and I was in a hurry.
The standard fins I used let me down.
I will have to retest the 8'9 Kanga with the Quobba's.

Bottom line... after the session with the Quobba's, I am super stoked with these fins!!
Thanks for your help in getting them!!

It's my opinion that fins with drive work in conjunction with the rail of the board to allow you to drive the board through a turn without and drift or slip..

Many more upright fins tend to steer the board through a turn and sometimes work against what the board shape or rails wants to do regardless of how much base area there is on the fin..

It's tricky stuff..

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supthecreek said..

I finally got my Quobba set while I was in Florida, but couldn't really feel the magic until I got home and got waves where I could feel the fins more.

Cool!
It is true that you don't feel the "Quobba effect" in slow waves... but once you have experienced it, you are hooked!

where can you get Quobba fins, I'm curious.

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surfmore said..
where can you get Quobba fins, I'm curious.

Direct from their website. They ship all over.

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surfmore said..
where can you get Quobba fins, I'm curious.

All details in www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Quobba-Fins-?

And quobbafins.com/

PS: unlike what they say on their site, their design has nothing to do with foiling. It creates vortexes along the base of the fin, allowing water to move with less resistance (and the fin in the water), a bit like you can empty a bottle faster by creating a vortex.

With all this talk on getting rid of the rake, I took my sander to make "finger" front fins out of a pair of Quobba L



A bit like the MUF - Maui Ultra Fins - template:



And... it works quite well in small waves! More speed (less drag), more looseness (instant response), but the magic Quobba base still provide hold and drive...

After 3 tiny waves sessions, with the last one being hip high max but hollow and punchy (12s period), I definitely like this setup.
Noticeably less drag at low speeds, and a more immediate response. Faster and more playful.
A keeper for my small wave board.

No feeling of lost hold. I still have more hold than with normal M (orange) Quobbas.
The only drawback I saw is when the wind grew stronger, creating some chop, the board became a bit twitchy and less controllable in turns. It was to be expected since I basically went the opposite route of S-Wing fins(*) that act as shock absorbers in chop.


(*)

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colas said..
. the opposite route of S-Wing fins(*) that act as shock absorbers in chop.


(*)

* @Bighugg, @Finsup - (cough) - you blokes across this?

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MangoDingo said..

colas said..
. the opposite route of S-Wing fins(*) that act as shock absorbers in chop.


(*)

* @Bighugg, @Finsup - (cough) - you blokes across this?

Yep.. unfortunately this trip I left my S-Wings in Alice in lieu of another Hanalei 5 fin set

Another interesting info: A French Windsurfing fin manufacturer has a line of fins available either in raked or upright templates:





They describe the difference as: u-ride.net/actualite/matos-nouveautes-erd-fins.html (in French)

"The tests and the development carried out by Vincent show that the upright sets are much less versatile than the set with classic rakes but the upright are very suitable for onshore type spots like La Bergerie or Pozo where you need maximum speed and drive ["impulsion", in this context was when you push on the fin to get max acceleration for a jump] but without too much grip in the surf."

In a nutshell: upright = faster, looser, less control.

drive comes from area. upright ( rake) has nothing to do with drive (except how it is applied but that is another question) and is about hook and pivot .

On the subject of fins, at least I stumbled upon a well-written article.
Most of the posts about fin just regurgitates things they have read on the internet.
This one is the only one where the author seems to known what he is talking about, and has actually tried fins such as EZ3 and C-Drive.

www.swellnet.com/news/design-outline/2021/09/01/parting-the-water-part-1-fin-placement
www.swellnet.com/news/design-outline/2021/09/20/parting-the-water-part-2-fin-shape

I am using an upright fin setup now on my 2019 Gong Alley (the 2019 have faster rocker compared to the 2020+, I use this board when I need speed): This setup give me more speed, more nimbleness, less latency in turns.
The drawback is that it may spinout more easily if you push hard on them at slow speed with the board somewhat flat compared with a traditional template. This means I must be careful to use the rail to turn tightly to (try to) get vertical on bottom turns, but it helps releasing the fins in top turns.

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colas said..
I am using an upright fin setup now on my 2019 Gong Alley (the 2019 have faster rocker compared to the 2020+, I use this board when I need speed): This setup give me more speed, more nimbleness, less latency in turns.
The drawback is that it may spinout more easily if you push hard on them at slow speed with the board somewhat flat compared with a traditional template. This means I must be careful to use the rail to turn tightly to (try to) get vertical on bottom turns, but it helps releasing the fins in top turns.

interesting stuff Colas ...I actually don't like my Quobbas on my flow due to the delay in hard turning ,it already is a fast board .I may have to get the grinder out
and give this a try ..that set up you got there would be very loose .and lively
I still can't believe the speed you can generate out of the Quobbas by pumping ,down the line they are quite amazing .
But because of the speed they gain it does become hard to dump off the speed for turns I wonder if this mod would regain the sharpness in turns .?

Well the Quobba template is based on the AM (Al Merrick) one, which is considered more "drivey" than "pivoty".
In FCS nomenclature, the "carve" familly, in Future the "rake" one.

So it is logical that working on the template allows us to get more pivot, while keeping intact all the magic of the Quobba that lies in their base.


For vertical surfing, I tend to only reduce the central fin depth, to keep a positive grip on the sides to push hard on, while reducing rail-to-rail latency in the tail:

Another review of upright fins, for windsurfing:www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/The-Fin-Review-Maui-Ultra-Fins-Wave-Fins?page=1

After some more experiment, I think I understand why people still use fins with the traditional big swept back head instead of upright pointed tips: In some cases extra fin drag is helpful, notably for vertical surfing where you want to "pinch" your trajectory to brutally turn vertically towards the lip: having the big fin tips "put on the brakes" helps tighten the turn and avoid speeding towards the shoulder.

With upright side fins, I am faster and looser, but it is harder to force the board to go vertical.

So, my advice would be to go upright fins for "horizontal surfing" (where the board stays horizontal, e.g in cutbacks) like this favorite video of mine of Stephanie Gilmore on a fast board:



As opposed to the more vertical surfing demonstrated by the same Stephanie on a "slow" (contest thrusters have less glide) board:



I also understand why some people may not be as hooked to Quobbas as some of us are: for vertical surfing, one may not feel the need for speed in their fins.

Obviously with trying my Quobbas for the first time I found that I had to change my slower style to a quicker style because of the speed. I found myself getting pushed out further from the pocket to the less power of the wave. It caused me to do my cutback too late & the glide slowed considerably where I lost or nearly lost the wave!
Also going to far forward of the wave where I would slow down only for the whitewash to hit me from behind harder than it would with my original fins.
But I need the speed to outrun the closeouts in front of me on those certain days when it's critical!
I remember a mate of mine saying he wished he could find a faster board to make it through. I think the Quobbas would have been the answer. His board was a good design but just needed that bit of extra speed.
I will tell him the next time we meet.
Unfortunately he has told me his surfing days are done due to age related wear & tear.
I love my Quobbas so far. But still need to test them further between foiling & Winging.

Surfmore, I do not know what straight up fins would do, but never tried. Aesthetically racked fins attracted me. So driving the board is what I love to do, pump pump turn.turn.pump pump. All my fins were always raked. The quobbas I use now are just average fins gliding, but start to pump and turn and they light up. Unbelievable speeds!

thanks!

I think I'm going to order them. Going to order with the smaller center fin.

What is the diff in feel on the carbon glass (black) ones and the glass (yellow)?

Thanks

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surfmore said..
What is the diff in feel on the carbon glass (black) ones and the glass (yellow)?

The glass has about twice the flex of the carbon glass version when pushing on the fin by hand.
The glass version has a flex similar to the "Performance Core" in FCS, a medium flex.

The carbon glass will be better if you push hard on your fins and want instant response.
Otherwise the glass version will let the board "breathe" more naturally and fit better smooth, fluid styles.

Basically I use carbon glass for my boards for vertical surfing (lots of rocker), and glass on my boards for horizontal surfing (faster rocker). I even tend to use carbon glass sides with a glass center.
But frankly, the difference in feel is small. I can enjoy both.

I'm addicted to pumping and going fast, but starting to limit my surfing I think. I'm looking for sections to develop down the line, cause beach breaks I surf often have closeout sections, not nice continuous peel. On the waves that do offer a nice pocket, I'm sometimes racing out the gates in search of speed and greener pastures down the line. Then when I go for the top I try to do it out of my pumping rather than turning to the beach and dropping farther down wave for a full bottom turn. Hard to break this habit, I'm greedy with my speed.

Have new Quobbas FCS center fin w/ longboard adapter on the way so I can try on my Blurr V2 again (after cheap futures adapter didn't work out). Excited to tap into even more speed, but also wanna do more top turns and fewer cuttbacks (as much as I love them). Any of you guys run into this issue and have advice for breaking habits?

thank you colas.

I always like the performance core fins. It is what I have now in my SP25 - Future AM Large performance core.

Very excited to try these fins!

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colas said..

...like this favorite video of mine of Stephanie Gilmore on a fast board:

I love how Steph hasn't even gotten her hair wet by the end of the video - she's a legend!

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Kisutch said..
Any of you guys run into this issue and have advice for breaking habits?

What works for me is focus on only one thing during a session: e.g: put your rear foot between the arch and kickpad, crouch more at the turn entry, try to get more vertical, etc...
Decide what you are going to do during a session and focus solely on it.

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Kisutch said..
I'm addicted to pumping and going fast, but starting to limit my surfing I think. I'm looking for sections to develop down the line, cause beach breaks I surf often have closeout sections, not nice continuous peel. On the waves that do offer a nice pocket, I'm sometimes racing out the gates in search of speed and greener pastures down the line. Then when I go for the top I try to do it out of my pumping rather than turning to the beach and dropping farther down wave for a full bottom turn. Hard to break this habit, I'm greedy with my speed.

Have new Quobbas FCS center fin w/ longboard adapter on the way so I can try on my Blurr V2 again (after cheap futures adapter didn't work out). Excited to tap into even more speed, but also wanna do more top turns and fewer cuttbacks (as much as I love them). Any of you guys run into this issue and have advice for breaking habits?

The same can creep into my ride due to the constant feeling of racing the section, beating the close out. I get so into making the end of the wave that is constantly sectioning. It's a tough balance because a big cutty all the way back around and maybe a bounce off the foam can have the wave run away from me. And that can leave me in a tougher spot to get back out. Beachbreak blues.

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Shabadoo said..

colas said..

...like this favorite video of mine of Stephanie Gilmore on a fast board:

I love how Steph hasn't even gotten her hair wet by the end of the video - she's a legend!

I just love her style. Her vids are some of my favorites and I watch them over and over again hoping something gets into my surf brain.