Is there too much choice, is the industry sustainable for all that are currently in it?!?

A few years ago you'd walk in to any major SUP shop and and see a number of different brands represented, some shops may have had different brands or more choice but for the most part you have the big 4 that were well represented in most! Starboard, Naish, Fanatic and JP, for myself personally at least these are the brands that have lead the way for a number of years..

However these days it seems there is more choice then ever in a market that seems relatively small, you still have the Big 4, but there is a lot more choice with newer brands entering the field such as Smik, One, Infinity and Sunova...

Then you have the guys that have been in the industry for longer, still out there offering epic product, like Bic, Blue Planet, Jimmy Lewis, Surftech, NSP, and SIC..

Also you've got local Aussie brands that make amazing custom boards, as well as offering a large production range such as Deep and Surefire..

And theres theres the price competitive market with guys like ECS and The Surfboard Warehouse, offering good product at unbelievable prices..

Finally theres so many unknown brands out there, guys that have seen the trend in SUP emailed a Chinese factory and got a container of boards, to try and ride the wave up the booming SUP market! I work in a SUP shop in Sydney and the amount of times people bring boards in for repair from brands that I've never even heard of before is ridiculous..

My question to all is, is the market big enough for everyone currently in it?!?

I've heard recently that the guys responsible for distributing Starboard in Australia have gotten out, due to the "current market conditions" Where does this leave arguably the biggest SUP brand in the world, in the Australian market?!?

Is this the beginning of the end for the Australian SUP Industry?!?

Same thing is happening in the Bicycle industry that I work in.... Too many brands, too many importers - not a big enough market.

Australia has more choice than anywhere else in the world, with a population nearly half the size of California.

And with the downturn in credit availability (re: Housing etc), I predict tough times for retail for the next few years here in Oz. It's already begun with car sales dropping significantly...

I put in an order for a custom Sunova board 6 weeks ago I am still waiting to here from them!

Over the last 5 years I've seen a number of people give SUP a go, very few are still at it. I think the biggest problem for the sport is the perception we have generated," WAVE HUNGRY MONGRELS". Perspective new participants are wary of the image of being a SUP rider thus decreasing sales. We need a very good PR team!

I'm still at a loss at why long board or short board clubs haven't embraced the sport. A club taking on SUP embraces participation and accountability. A switched on club could run with this, educate SUP riders and break down the us and them mentality that exists.

I live in Ocean Grove and I would love to see the SOUL Longboard Club take on SUP. I've talked to members in the past but the prejudice is too strong. As mentioned above I feel they are missing out. Stop whinging about SUP riders, throw out an olive branch and use it to educate all wave participants.

SUP manufacturing is simply a business
No market is big enough for everybody that is in it.
If an Ice Cream Shop has lines around the corner, everyone will open up a shop across the street, until there are more shops than customers.
The ones with the best handle on finances will survive.... it's all about having more cash coming in than going out.

Quality and value are important, but solid financial management is key.

Any business has to be fast on it's feet and willing to evolve.
and it needs to pay attention to the numbers.
If you waste time for marginal return, you will fail.
If you understand what your strength is and play to that, you have a better shot.

As far as SUP business in general, I think the days of the molded, large run mega brands are going to be challenged to maintain a profitable pace if they fail to grow the sport.... because they depend on large sales volume and growth.

If the money isn't easy, the opportunistic cheapo brands will vaporize.

Small brands don't need to "grow" the sport to thrive.
The smaller, more agile companies, that don't use expensive molds that require high volume sales, will be able to eek out a niche in any market because their needs are much smaller.... and they can make custom boards. They will always be the forefront because they can innovate.

SUP is here to stay and we will always need quality boards.
I believe that small, independent companies like Sunova, Deep, Smik, One and Infinity, that make top quality boards will be able to thrive if they stay small and agile..... and keep a good handle on cash flow.

It's not always an "up" market.

Ok so i have a different take on things to alot of others.

Yes it is a tough market and Australia is smashed with alot of brands that are all trying to do the same thing. You have the cheap brands like Surfboard warehouse, Alley Designs and guys like this who are trying to do volume with low margin and always looking at how to make boards cheaper so they can get $10 extra margin. Tough game at this end and even now i know one company who can not pay for the boards they have here in Aus and the factory is trying to sell the boards super cheap to just recover some costs. For me they can have this side, i have played with it a little in the past but it never works out well as the boards are **** and when all said and done for the amount of work it takes you may as well be on the dole.

Then we move into the Top brands, these guys have been around for quite a while in most cases and have helped get to where we are now they have also shown a few good lessons of what not to do and those that have watched and learnt have made the biggest moves forward. The big brands also i feel have been suck it to trying to compete with some cheaper brands and quality has taken a dive and in some cases the quality of the big brands would be close to that of the cheaper guys but with far higher price tags. I am sure anyone who has brought some of the top brands gear over the last 2 or so years might agree.

Then you have the new comers like the ONE(Which is me by the way for anyone who does not know) ,Sunova, smiik, Deep and any other i may have forgotten, in these cases the quality is in most cases better than the top brands and the pricing is also better and the reason why is the companys are smaller we dont have 10 team riders or any massive over heads we keep out goings tight and just offer a good product at a good price.
For us at ONE i feel we are even a bit different again and we are working on making better boards with out making the price go crazy, i am going to disagree with SUPthecreek on the molding side of things and i can see why some company's are doing the easy option of CNC cut boards but for us at ONE we are now molding 90% of our boards and the quality is bloody amazing and we are doing this in most cases with out increasing the price. You don't have to sell a million boards to mold but you do have to invest and make boards good enough that you don't want to change every 6 months, for us we run a 18 to 24 month board cycle and even longer if the board is still working and we have not made something better. Soon the only CNC boards we will do is customs!!
I feel for the price of boards we should be as company's giving the customer the very best possible and molding does this.

Australia is a tough market as i have said but at the end of the day the customers will have the final say as to who sticks around and who falls away, online will grow and even for us now in Australia we deal mostly direct and only through a few very selected retailers but this has also helped us to get the pricing way better and i guess it is this moving and bending brands have to do to stay alive

About time the perils of the Australian SUP Industry were discussed on this forum.

Junior burger asks " Is the market currently big enough for everyone in it ? "

The market is definately not big enough to keep all the business's involved selling Stand Up Paddle sporting equipment operating in Australia.

Names will be cursed, houses will be sold, on the brighter side equipment will get cheaper and bargains will be available for a limited time.

Retailers that provide real customer service with real product knowledge will hopefully prevail.

If all the brands go to the direct selling model we will have a problem.

A good question is, Does the "Sunova Custom order" discussed in this thread involve a commission for any salesperson in a retail outlet ?

If your SUP brand is made in Australia you are in a unique position and sales commission is not applicable for the obvious reasons. If your a retailer that designs and makes quality boards outside of Australia I also believe you are unique and obviously pay yourself the commission.

If all the foreign country made brands (small and large) start rubbing there hands together and take direct sales orders without paying a retailer who directed the customer to the brand or board the SUP Industry in Australia will diminish.

For all the SUP buyers/Breezers out there that are thinking of grabbing a deal and buying direct from a distributor that is shutting down please check that a SUP shop in your state does not already have this board in stock. You will find that most or all of the retailers will be able to match the sale price. We all know the large brands will keep going, having a retailer to view and try new boards, run demos and help keep you up to date with board and paddle design when you need it is not guaranteed.

Keep on, keeping on.

Jack

Really interesting discussion.

Whilst i'm not really saying I'm for it or against it, there are a number of retailers that operate outside their usual jobs from a garage and I think that has had a significant impact.I agree that the market is currently past saturation point. However, I also believe that everything has a reason and the market place is bigger than most (mainly the enthusiast) sees.I live in Wollongong, and when we see the annual pilgrimage on boxing day or Easter weekend with all the Sydney people heading south with their camping trailers, I reckon we see at least every 2nd or 3rd car has a SUP on the roof. My guess is virtually none surf, but man the market is huge.

I also believe that the pricing in the market place is a part of it. I mean I can go to my local (surefire or JPD in my case) and get a custom carbon light weight board exactly how i like it for around (usually less than) $2000. A good quality Sunova (construction tech is very good) around $2500. Carbon Starboard @ $3500? c'mon, that's a gouge if I've ever seen one.

I subscribe to 'game theory' in business (research Simon Sinek). Basically, like all open markets, we'll have a correction and those without the resources or the will will simply end up out of the game. The issue will come when those who have lost the will move on, the product dumps and subsequent pricing drops will have a significant (even if temporary) impact on those left.

Its not all doom and gloom. Remember that massive market noted above? Some of them will fall in love and get serious. They will come.

I personally believe that if we as SUP want a strong industry, we need to support local. Buy local, Buy whats been manufactured here in Aus. I cant see a reason not to to be honest....

Yew! Peak time to buy.

Premium sup quality (Weight/Strength/durability vs Price) & availability is definitely going south from here as it looks like prices will go up & boards will need to be ordered months in advance (sight unseen) like the old days of Windsurfing!

I thank global surf industries/ecs. good stuff lads. Fodder for kooks that keeps premium prices down (for now!)

Select to expand quote

Jacksboards said..
Retailers that provide real customer service with real product knowledge will hopefully prevail.

If all the brands go to the direct selling model we will have a problem.

A good question is, Does the "Sunova Custom order" discussed in this thread involve a commission for any salesperson in a retail outlet ?

If your SUP brand is made in Australia you are in a unique position and sales commission is not applicable for the obvious reasons. If your a retailer that designs and makes quality boards outside of Australia I also believe you are unique and obviously pay yourself the commission.

If all the foreign country made brands (small and large) start rubbing there hands together and take direct sales orders without paying a retailer who directed the customer to the brand or board the SUP Industry in Australia will diminish.

I completely agree, as Jacko said I think there will be more brands in the future that will start to look at going online or taking a more direct approach, but I think if the whole industry heads that way then it will impact on future growth of the sport..

If all brands start going for the "Smash and Grab" direct approach where are the retailers and the guys that have been there in support of SUP since its infancy going to fit it! The people that are out there running events, demos and community races, trying to introduce this amazing sport to a range of new potential converts..

In the beginning it might seem great for the consumer as there will be lots of options available and really good priced options, however in the long run I feel it will have a detrimental effect on the sport..

There are a lot of guys just holding on because of their passion for the sport, at the end of the day no ones going to become filthy rich off SUP but we all still have to be able to eat..

In regards to Jacksboards question about the Sunova custom, I feel better poised than anyone else to answer this..

As a lot of you may know I am affiliated with Sunova, however my day to day 9-5 is working in a SUP shop that has no affiliation with Sunova other than the fact that we stock their boards..

If a customer was to go direct to Sunova and order a custom board from our territory/area, we would be credited our full retail margin even it the customer has never stepped foot in our store.. The board would usually then be delivered to our store and the customer would be required to collect it there from us, this enables us to build a direct relationship with the customer, who we may not have previously met before and a lot of times when people get new boards they'll need accessories, from rail tape to a new leash, up to board bags and paddles..

It's a win/win for both parties and enables support for the guys who support the sport!!

Thanks for starting up the topic Junior. Without retailers many of us would have most likely bought multiple lemons, had minimal advice, options or demos. Also we would have left clubs with little support and likely llitte or no events would exist.

A way i like to look at it is buy.

Buy a Sup / accessories from a retailer that is supported by it's suppliers who's morals and beliefs are in giving that said customer the most amount value for their dollar spent with the least amount of friction when they go Stand Up Paddle Boarding. Look to support the retailers and brands that Support events year in year out and the local sup clubs of your local area. Local sporting clubs just don't happen, when you support them they grow and when they grow they give back.

But.... We are all consumers.
So don't jump up on your high horse and complain about doing it tough or times are tough if when you go buy something from another industry and expect to get a discount or better deal... Double standards people.

Select to expand quote

GreenTea said..
I put in an order for a custom Sunova board 6 weeks ago I am still waiting to here from them!

Over the last 5 years I've seen a number of people give SUP a go, very few are still at it. I think the biggest problem for the sport is the perception we have generated," WAVE HUNGRY MONGRELS". Perspective new participants are wary of the image of being a SUP rider thus decreasing sales. We need a very good PR team!

I'm still at a loss at why long board or short board clubs haven't embraced the sport. A club taking on SUP embraces participation and accountability. A switched on club could run with this, educate SUP riders and break down the us and them mentality that exists.

I live in Ocean Grove and I would love to see the SOUL Longboard Club take on SUP. I've talked to members in the past but the prejudice is too strong. As mentioned above I feel they are missing out. Stop whinging about SUP riders, throw out an olive branch and use it to educate all wave participants.

Some people just can't be taught GreenTea. I have called a few people out and explained to them if they kept doing what they are doing, they would be likely to get hurt, either accidentally or intentionally. One young fella just rushed straight back and upped the anti . Nowadays I tend to steer well clear of inexperienced or rude SUPpers, and let the proners sort them out. Doesn't take long, especially if there's decent surf around.

I'm consider myself very lucky where I am. There's only a handful of us, and most are well behaved. It's taken me years to build up the trust, and it is ongoing. It's helped that my kids love the surf and are quite good surfers, and have their own unique style. I try and involve them in the local boardriders club, and the club involves SUPs in their comps.

As a dedicated SUP surfer, I read the tides and spend time to seek out the breaks to avoid conflict, and constantly enjoy great long sessions. Sometimes I get lucky, like the other afternoon when my son and I had the point to ourselves for an hour, and had an absolute ball. I was stuffed .

Keep working at it mate. The more I surf, the more I enjoy it, and the more I smile. The more you smile, say g'day and engage with people that love the ocean just as much as you do, the easier you will find it. And if all else fails go out on the biggest days, paddle to the next break that everyone is avoiding because the chances of popping up and making the drop are slim to none, and drop over the edge of a few big boys. Just for sh1ts and giggles. And because you can.

Select to expand quote

Funnsurfn said..
Thanks for starting up the topic Junior. Without retailers many of us would have most likely bought multiple lemons, had minimal advice, options or demos. Also we would have left clubs with little support and likely llitte or no events would exist.

True. I owe being introduced to Naish and sticking to it initially to a couple of retailers on the coast.
I blame the rest on the breezers
If it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't have surfed Laird or JP, or enjoyed the custom journey with Deep, Sunova and Smik.
So thanks.
From me.
Not from my missus

Select to expand quote

paul.j said..
Ok so i have a different take on things to alot of others.

Yes it is a tough market and Australia is smashed with alot of brands that are all trying to do the same thing. You have the cheap brands like Surfboard warehouse, Alley Designs and guys like this who are trying to do volume with low margin and always looking at how to make boards cheaper so they can get $10 extra margin. Tough game at this end and even now i know one company who can not pay for the boards they have here in Aus and the factory is trying to sell the boards super cheap to just recover some costs. For me they can have this side, i have played with it a little in the past but it never works out well as the boards are **** and when all said and done for the amount of work it takes you may as well be on the dole.

Then we move into the Top brands, these guys have been around for quite a while in most cases and have helped get to where we are now they have also shown a few good lessons of what not to do and those that have watched and learnt have made the biggest moves forward. The big brands also i feel have been suck it to trying to compete with some cheaper brands and quality has taken a dive and in some cases the quality of the big brands would be close to that of the cheaper guys but with far higher price tags. I am sure anyone who has brought some of the top brands gear over the last 2 or so years might agree.

Then you have the new comers like the ONE(Which is me by the way for anyone who does not know) ,Sunova, smiik, Deep and any other i may have forgotten, in these cases the quality is in most cases better than the top brands and the pricing is also better and the reason why is the companys are smaller we dont have 10 team riders or any massive over heads we keep out goings tight and just offer a good product at a good price.
For us at ONE i feel we are even a bit different again and we are working on making better boards with out making the price go crazy, i am going to disagree with SUPthecreek on the molding side of things and i can see why some company's are doing the easy option of CNC cut boards but for us at ONE we are now molding 90% of our boards and the quality is bloody amazing and we are doing this in most cases with out increasing the price. You don't have to sell a million boards to mold but you do have to invest and make boards good enough that you don't want to change every 6 months, for us we run a 18 to 24 month board cycle and even longer if the board is still working and we have not made something better. Soon the only CNC boards we will do is customs!!
I feel for the price of boards we should be as company's giving the customer the very best possible and molding does this.

Australia is a tough market as i have said but at the end of the day the customers will have the final say as to who sticks around and who falls away, online will grow and even for us now in Australia we deal mostly direct and only through a few very selected retailers but this has also helped us to get the pricing way better and i guess it is this moving and bending brands have to do to stay alive

Geez jacko. Calling out alley designs because they did it better than you is a bit much mate. Their boards arent that cheap and they have a good reputation as durable boards. All their boards have stringer for starters. They back their produce. Its family business and they work day hard 7 days week. And they have sponsored local races
To compare them to surfboardware house is out of line

Select to expand quote

Jacksboards said..

If all the brands go to the direct selling model we will have a problem.

A good question is, Does the "Sunova Custom order" discussed in this thread involve a commission for any salesperson in a retail outlet ?

I have no skin in this game but I can confirm that a Sunova custom order does indeed include a commission for a retail outlet.

Select to expand quote

laceys lane said..

paul.j said..
Ok so i have a different take on things to alot of others.

Yes it is a tough market and Australia is smashed with alot of brands that are all trying to do the same thing. You have the cheap brands like Surfboard warehouse, Alley Designs and guys like this who are trying to do volume with low margin and always looking at how to make boards cheaper so they can get $10 extra margin. Tough game at this end and even now i know one company who can not pay for the boards they have here in Aus and the factory is trying to sell the boards super cheap to just recover some costs. For me they can have this side, i have played with it a little in the past but it never works out well as the boards are **** and when all said and done for the amount of work it takes you may as well be on the dole.

Then we move into the Top brands, these guys have been around for quite a while in most cases and have helped get to where we are now they have also shown a few good lessons of what not to do and those that have watched and learnt have made the biggest moves forward. The big brands also i feel have been suck it to trying to compete with some cheaper brands and quality has taken a dive and in some cases the quality of the big brands would be close to that of the cheaper guys but with far higher price tags. I am sure anyone who has brought some of the top brands gear over the last 2 or so years might agree.

Then you have the new comers like the ONE(Which is me by the way for anyone who does not know) ,Sunova, smiik, Deep and any other i may have forgotten, in these cases the quality is in most cases better than the top brands and the pricing is also better and the reason why is the companys are smaller we dont have 10 team riders or any massive over heads we keep out goings tight and just offer a good product at a good price.
For us at ONE i feel we are even a bit different again and we are working on making better boards with out making the price go crazy, i am going to disagree with SUPthecreek on the molding side of things and i can see why some company's are doing the easy option of CNC cut boards but for us at ONE we are now molding 90% of our boards and the quality is bloody amazing and we are doing this in most cases with out increasing the price. You don't have to sell a million boards to mold but you do have to invest and make boards good enough that you don't want to change every 6 months, for us we run a 18 to 24 month board cycle and even longer if the board is still working and we have not made something better. Soon the only CNC boards we will do is customs!!
I feel for the price of boards we should be as company's giving the customer the very best possible and molding does this.

Australia is a tough market as i have said but at the end of the day the customers will have the final say as to who sticks around and who falls away, online will grow and even for us now in Australia we deal mostly direct and only through a few very selected retailers but this has also helped us to get the pricing way better and i guess it is this moving and bending brands have to do to stay alive

Geez jacko. Calling out alley designs because they did it better than you is a bit much mate. Their boards arent that cheap and they have a good reputation as durable boards. All their boards have stringer for starters. They back their produce. Its family business and they work day hard 7 days week. And they have sponsored local races
To compare them to surfboardware house is out of line

Not really calling anyone out mate just stating facts, I have brought boards from the same factory in the past and I do know what is on the inside so not really sure where you are going?
It is what it is they serve a purpose for that kinda market and no one is bagging any one out.
I never said they don't support anyone or anything so I think you have your knickers in a twist about something and are reading to much into a few words.

Lots of people really like the surf board warehouse boards as well and they also do the job they are ment to bit if someone thinks they are made the same as the top guys well they are kidding them selves. If I could sell a top made board for $800 that would be awesome but in the real world that can not happen unless you use inferra materials so the factory can make it cheaper.
To be honest I am surprised that you would be sucked in to believing this kinda rubbish and then over reading into a post like you have a kinda a strange

The price on the top boards are not just there so we can roll around in huge amounts of cash it is there because we pay more to make our boards.

I could have listed every cheap brand in Aus but that would take all day so I passed on that and just named the few I know and also know where the boards come from. Yes they also sell NSP and Naish but they are not under the Alley logo so can not put those boards in the same catagroy.

If I can not state a fact then what can I do mate? I did not bag any one out and if anything I stated that some of the big brands have dropped the ball.

And doing better than me is weird comment? I didn't think we were having a pissing comp and if you think they are doing better then i am happy for you.

I think all the brands really want to support the retailers and is something we worked on but it is a hard gig and IMO you have to have a bit of both. We still want to back as many retailers as we can and are super happy if someone wants to buy a board direct but still go through there local shop and we are stoked for this and support it 100% but some people don't have a local or really just don't care so as a brand you have to be able to cover a bit of both.

Bit off topic by the way.

So back on topic yes there are to many brands and some will die and some will survive only time will tell who.

Select to expand quote

paul.j said..

laceys lane said..

paul.j said..
Ok so i have a different take on things to alot of others.

Yes it is a tough market and Australia is smashed with alot of brands that are all trying to do the same thing. You have the cheap brands like Surfboard warehouse, Alley Designs and guys like this who are trying to do volume with low margin and always looking at how to make boards cheaper so they can get $10 extra margin. Tough game at this end and even now i know one company who can not pay for the boards they have here in Aus and the factory is trying to sell the boards super cheap to just recover some costs. For me they can have this side, i have played with it a little in the past but it never works out well as the boards are **** and when all said and done for the amount of work it takes you may as well be on the dole.

Then we move into the Top brands, these guys have been around for quite a while in most cases and have helped get to where we are now they have also shown a few good lessons of what not to do and those that have watched and learnt have made the biggest moves forward. The big brands also i feel have been suck it to trying to compete with some cheaper brands and quality has taken a dive and in some cases the quality of the big brands would be close to that of the cheaper guys but with far higher price tags. I am sure anyone who has brought some of the top brands gear over the last 2 or so years might agree.

Then you have the new comers like the ONE(Which is me by the way for anyone who does not know) ,Sunova, smiik, Deep and any other i may have forgotten, in these cases the quality is in most cases better than the top brands and the pricing is also better and the reason why is the companys are smaller we dont have 10 team riders or any massive over heads we keep out goings tight and just offer a good product at a good price.
For us at ONE i feel we are even a bit different again and we are working on making better boards with out making the price go crazy, i am going to disagree with SUPthecreek on the molding side of things and i can see why some company's are doing the easy option of CNC cut boards but for us at ONE we are now molding 90% of our boards and the quality is bloody amazing and we are doing this in most cases with out increasing the price. You don't have to sell a million boards to mold but you do have to invest and make boards good enough that you don't want to change every 6 months, for us we run a 18 to 24 month board cycle and even longer if the board is still working and we have not made something better. Soon the only CNC boards we will do is customs!!
I feel for the price of boards we should be as company's giving the customer the very best possible and molding does this.

Australia is a tough market as i have said but at the end of the day the customers will have the final say as to who sticks around and who falls away, online will grow and even for us now in Australia we deal mostly direct and only through a few very selected retailers but this has also helped us to get the pricing way better and i guess it is this moving and bending brands have to do to stay alive

Geez jacko. Calling out alley designs because they did it better than you is a bit much mate. Their boards arent that cheap and they have a good reputation as durable boards. All their boards have stringer for starters. They back their produce. Its family business and they work day hard 7 days week. And they have sponsored local races
To compare them to surfboardware house is out of line

Not really calling anyone out mate just stating facts, I have brought boards from the same factory in the past and I do know what is on the inside so not really sure where you are going?
It is what it is they serve a purpose for that kinda market and no one is bagging any one out.
I never said they don't support anyone or anything so I think you have your knickers in a twist about something and are reading to much into a few words.

Lots of people really like the surf board warehouse boards as well and they also do the job they are ment to bit if someone thinks they are made the same as the top guys well they are kidding them selves. If I could sell a top made board for $800 that would be awesome but in the real world that can not happen unless you use inferra materials so the factory can make it cheaper.
To be honest I am surprised that you would be sucked in to believing this kinda rubbish and then over reading into a post like you have a kinda a strange

The price on the top boards are not just there so we can roll around in huge amounts of cash it is there because we pay more to make our boards.

I could have listed every cheap brand in Aus but that would take all day so I passed on that and just named the few I know and also know where the boards come from. Yes they also sell NSP and Naish but they are not under the Alley logo so can not put those boards in the same catagroy.

If I can not state a fact then what can I do mate? I did not bag any one out and if anything I stated that some of the big brands have dropped the ball.

And doing better than me is weird comment? I didn't think we were having a pissing comp and if you think they are doing better then i am happy for you.

Ok paul. I just thought it was a strange thing to say.
They work hard like you do
They do the best they can in that range.
Cheers

Select to expand quote

laceys lane said..

paul.j said..

laceys lane said..

paul.j said..
Ok so i have a different take on things to alot of others.

Yes it is a tough market and Australia is smashed with alot of brands that are all trying to do the same thing. You have the cheap brands like Surfboard warehouse, Alley Designs and guys like this who are trying to do volume with low margin and always looking at how to make boards cheaper so they can get $10 extra margin. Tough game at this end and even now i know one company who can not pay for the boards they have here in Aus and the factory is trying to sell the boards super cheap to just recover some costs. For me they can have this side, i have played with it a little in the past but it never works out well as the boards are **** and when all said and done for the amount of work it takes you may as well be on the dole.

Then we move into the Top brands, these guys have been around for quite a while in most cases and have helped get to where we are now they have also shown a few good lessons of what not to do and those that have watched and learnt have made the biggest moves forward. The big brands also i feel have been suck it to trying to compete with some cheaper brands and quality has taken a dive and in some cases the quality of the big brands would be close to that of the cheaper guys but with far higher price tags. I am sure anyone who has brought some of the top brands gear over the last 2 or so years might agree.

Then you have the new comers like the ONE(Which is me by the way for anyone who does not know) ,Sunova, smiik, Deep and any other i may have forgotten, in these cases the quality is in most cases better than the top brands and the pricing is also better and the reason why is the companys are smaller we dont have 10 team riders or any massive over heads we keep out goings tight and just offer a good product at a good price.
For us at ONE i feel we are even a bit different again and we are working on making better boards with out making the price go crazy, i am going to disagree with SUPthecreek on the molding side of things and i can see why some company's are doing the easy option of CNC cut boards but for us at ONE we are now molding 90% of our boards and the quality is bloody amazing and we are doing this in most cases with out increasing the price. You don't have to sell a million boards to mold but you do have to invest and make boards good enough that you don't want to change every 6 months, for us we run a 18 to 24 month board cycle and even longer if the board is still working and we have not made something better. Soon the only CNC boards we will do is customs!!
I feel for the price of boards we should be as company's giving the customer the very best possible and molding does this.

Australia is a tough market as i have said but at the end of the day the customers will have the final say as to who sticks around and who falls away, online will grow and even for us now in Australia we deal mostly direct and only through a few very selected retailers but this has also helped us to get the pricing way better and i guess it is this moving and bending brands have to do to stay alive

Geez jacko. Calling out alley designs because they did it better than you is a bit much mate. Their boards arent that cheap and they have a good reputation as durable boards. All their boards have stringer for starters. They back their produce. Its family business and they work day hard 7 days week. And they have sponsored local races
To compare them to surfboardware house is out of line

Not really calling anyone out mate just stating facts, I have brought boards from the same factory in the past and I do know what is on the inside so not really sure where you are going?
It is what it is they serve a purpose for that kinda market and no one is bagging any one out.
I never said they don't support anyone or anything so I think you have your knickers in a twist about something and are reading to much into a few words.

Lots of people really like the surf board warehouse boards as well and they also do the job they are ment to bit if someone thinks they are made the same as the top guys well they are kidding them selves. If I could sell a top made board for $800 that would be awesome but in the real world that can not happen unless you use inferra materials so the factory can make it cheaper.
To be honest I am surprised that you would be sucked in to believing this kinda rubbish and then over reading into a post like you have a kinda a strange

The price on the top boards are not just there so we can roll around in huge amounts of cash it is there because we pay more to make our boards.

I could have listed every cheap brand in Aus but that would take all day so I passed on that and just named the few I know and also know where the boards come from. Yes they also sell NSP and Naish but they are not under the Alley logo so can not put those boards in the same catagroy.

If I can not state a fact then what can I do mate? I did not bag any one out and if anything I stated that some of the big brands have dropped the ball.

And doing better than me is weird comment? I didn't think we were having a pissing comp and if you think they are doing better then i am happy for you.

Ok paul. I just thought it was a strange thing to say.
They work hard like you do
They do the best they can in that range.
Cheers

Stranger that you feel the need to call me out on something I didn't even say for really nothing but guess you have your reasons.

I personally appreciate the level of input the big brands have put in to our sport over the year's . The development and hybridization of aspects of other watercraft into Sup progression then back again has been awsome to observe . The R n D the big guys have done is now happening with small local shapers. Go the local custom.
I still see a diverse future

Select to expand quote

paul.j said..

laceys lane said..

paul.j said..

laceys lane said..

paul.j said..
Ok so i have a different take on things to alot of others.

Yes it is a tough market and Australia is smashed with alot of brands that are all trying to do the same thing. You have the cheap brands like Surfboard warehouse, Alley Designs and guys like this who are trying to do volume with low margin and always looking at how to make boards cheaper so they can get $10 extra margin. Tough game at this end and even now i know one company who can not pay for the boards they have here in Aus and the factory is trying to sell the boards super cheap to just recover some costs. For me they can have this side, i have played with it a little in the past but it never works out well as the boards are **** and when all said and done for the amount of work it takes you may as well be on the dole.

Then we move into the Top brands, these guys have been around for quite a while in most cases and have helped get to where we are now they have also shown a few good lessons of what not to do and those that have watched and learnt have made the biggest moves forward. The big brands also i feel have been suck it to trying to compete with some cheaper brands and quality has taken a dive and in some cases the quality of the big brands would be close to that of the cheaper guys but with far higher price tags. I am sure anyone who has brought some of the top brands gear over the last 2 or so years might agree.

Then you have the new comers like the ONE(Which is me by the way for anyone who does not know) ,Sunova, smiik, Deep and any other i may have forgotten, in these cases the quality is in most cases better than the top brands and the pricing is also better and the reason why is the companys are smaller we dont have 10 team riders or any massive over heads we keep out goings tight and just offer a good product at a good price.
For us at ONE i feel we are even a bit different again and we are working on making better boards with out making the price go crazy, i am going to disagree with SUPthecreek on the molding side of things and i can see why some company's are doing the easy option of CNC cut boards but for us at ONE we are now molding 90% of our boards and the quality is bloody amazing and we are doing this in most cases with out increasing the price. You don't have to sell a million boards to mold but you do have to invest and make boards good enough that you don't want to change every 6 months, for us we run a 18 to 24 month board cycle and even longer if the board is still working and we have not made something better. Soon the only CNC boards we will do is customs!!
I feel for the price of boards we should be as company's giving the customer the very best possible and molding does this.

Australia is a tough market as i have said but at the end of the day the customers will have the final say as to who sticks around and who falls away, online will grow and even for us now in Australia we deal mostly direct and only through a few very selected retailers but this has also helped us to get the pricing way better and i guess it is this moving and bending brands have to do to stay alive

Geez jacko. Calling out alley designs because they did it better than you is a bit much mate. Their boards arent that cheap and they have a good reputation as durable boards. All their boards have stringer for starters. They back their produce. Its family business and they work day hard 7 days week. And they have sponsored local races
To compare them to surfboardware house is out of line

Not really calling anyone out mate just stating facts, I have brought boards from the same factory in the past and I do know what is on the inside so not really sure where you are going?
It is what it is they serve a purpose for that kinda market and no one is bagging any one out.
I never said they don't support anyone or anything so I think you have your knickers in a twist about something and are reading to much into a few words.

Lots of people really like the surf board warehouse boards as well and they also do the job they are ment to bit if someone thinks they are made the same as the top guys well they are kidding them selves. If I could sell a top made board for $800 that would be awesome but in the real world that can not happen unless you use inferra materials so the factory can make it cheaper.
To be honest I am surprised that you would be sucked in to believing this kinda rubbish and then over reading into a post like you have a kinda a strange

The price on the top boards are not just there so we can roll around in huge amounts of cash it is there because we pay more to make our boards.

I could have listed every cheap brand in Aus but that would take all day so I passed on that and just named the few I know and also know where the boards come from. Yes they also sell NSP and Naish but they are not under the Alley logo so can not put those boards in the same catagroy.

If I can not state a fact then what can I do mate? I did not bag any one out and if anything I stated that some of the big brands have dropped the ball.

And doing better than me is weird comment? I didn't think we were having a pissing comp and if you think they are doing better then i am happy for you.

Ok paul. I just thought it was a strange thing to say.
They work hard like you do
They do the best they can in that range.
Cheers

Stranger that you feel the need to call me out on something I didn't even say for really nothing but guess you have your reasons.

Whatever

As a consumer I'm for value for money sup products and the more business sup products out there competing and improving the sup's the better.
What im not for is bad business practice with poor customer service and shocking buld quality (cheap and big brands), so please do something else like politics because there doing a great lying job

the retailers are the difference for me (hint I live near the North Freo 'region'). Being able to actually demo a board (partic. from a local company) makes such a difference. Even when you come from a background of surfing, and have done every bit of research possible online, nothing cuts it like actually getting on a board and seeing if it works for you. And quality - poor quality or issues makes its way around like wildfire.

So, IMO, the companies that will last the distance will be those that have or build a good relationship with good SUP retailers and allow consumers the opportunity to touch and try their boards before purchase. 2K or so is a bit of dosh and buying solely on internet research, suggestions by anon. people online, or by watching pros on YouTube, is a big gamble.

I could be wrong but we're in for a financial down turn maybe sometime this year or next year so get ready and hangon.

Select to expand quote

laceys lane said..

paul.j said..

laceys lane said..

paul.j said..

laceys lane said..

paul.j said..
Ok so i have a different take on things to alot of others.

Yes it is a tough market and Australia is smashed with alot of brands that are all trying to do the same thing. You have the cheap brands like Surfboard warehouse, Alley Designs and guys like this who are trying to do volume with low margin and always looking at how to make boards cheaper so they can get $10 extra margin. Tough game at this end and even now i know one company who can not pay for the boards they have here in Aus and the factory is trying to sell the boards super cheap to just recover some costs. For me they can have this side, i have played with it a little in the past but it never works out well as the boards are **** and when all said and done for the amount of work it takes you may as well be on the dole.

Then we move into the Top brands, these guys have been around for quite a while in most cases and have helped get to where we are now they have also shown a few good lessons of what not to do and those that have watched and learnt have made the biggest moves forward. The big brands also i feel have been suck it to trying to compete with some cheaper brands and quality has taken a dive and in some cases the quality of the big brands would be close to that of the cheaper guys but with far higher price tags. I am sure anyone who has brought some of the top brands gear over the last 2 or so years might agree.

Then you have the new comers like the ONE(Which is me by the way for anyone who does not know) ,Sunova, smiik, Deep and any other i may have forgotten, in these cases the quality is in most cases better than the top brands and the pricing is also better and the reason why is the companys are smaller we dont have 10 team riders or any massive over heads we keep out goings tight and just offer a good product at a good price.
For us at ONE i feel we are even a bit different again and we are working on making better boards with out making the price go crazy, i am going to disagree with SUPthecreek on the molding side of things and i can see why some company's are doing the easy option of CNC cut boards but for us at ONE we are now molding 90% of our boards and the quality is bloody amazing and we are doing this in most cases with out increasing the price. You don't have to sell a million boards to mold but you do have to invest and make boards good enough that you don't want to change every 6 months, for us we run a 18 to 24 month board cycle and even longer if the board is still working and we have not made something better. Soon the only CNC boards we will do is customs!!
I feel for the price of boards we should be as company's giving the customer the very best possible and molding does this.

Australia is a tough market as i have said but at the end of the day the customers will have the final say as to who sticks around and who falls away, online will grow and even for us now in Australia we deal mostly direct and only through a few very selected retailers but this has also helped us to get the pricing way better and i guess it is this moving and bending brands have to do to stay alive

Geez jacko. Calling out alley designs because they did it better than you is a bit much mate. Their boards arent that cheap and they have a good reputation as durable boards. All their boards have stringer for starters. They back their produce. Its family business and they work day hard 7 days week. And they have sponsored local races
To compare them to surfboardware house is out of line

Not really calling anyone out mate just stating facts, I have brought boards from the same factory in the past and I do know what is on the inside so not really sure where you are going?
It is what it is they serve a purpose for that kinda market and no one is bagging any one out.
I never said they don't support anyone or anything so I think you have your knickers in a twist about something and are reading to much into a few words.

Lots of people really like the surf board warehouse boards as well and they also do the job they are ment to bit if someone thinks they are made the same as the top guys well they are kidding them selves. If I could sell a top made board for $800 that would be awesome but in the real world that can not happen unless you use inferra materials so the factory can make it cheaper.
To be honest I am surprised that you would be sucked in to believing this kinda rubbish and then over reading into a post like you have a kinda a strange

The price on the top boards are not just there so we can roll around in huge amounts of cash it is there because we pay more to make our boards.

I could have listed every cheap brand in Aus but that would take all day so I passed on that and just named the few I know and also know where the boards come from. Yes they also sell NSP and Naish but they are not under the Alley logo so can not put those boards in the same catagroy.

If I can not state a fact then what can I do mate? I did not bag any one out and if anything I stated that some of the big brands have dropped the ball.

And doing better than me is weird comment? I didn't think we were having a pissing comp and if you think they are doing better then i am happy for you.

Ok paul. I just thought it was a strange thing to say.
They work hard like you do
They do the best they can in that range.
Cheers

Stranger that you feel the need to call me out on something I didn't even say for really nothing but guess you have your reasons.

Whatever

Haha i knew you be all upset mate!!

Select to expand quote

donut4u said..
the retailers are the difference for me (hint I live near the North Freo 'region'). Being able to actually demo a board (partic. from a local company) makes such a difference. Even when you come from a background of surfing, and have done every bit of research possible online, nothing cuts it like actually getting on a board and seeing if it works for you. And quality - poor quality or issues makes its way around like wildfire.

So, IMO, the companies that will last the distance will be those that have or build a good relationship with good SUP retailers and allow consumers the opportunity to touch and try their boards before purchase. 2K or so is a bit of dosh and buying solely on internet research, suggestions by anon. people online, or by watching pros on YouTube, is a big gamble.

True dat. At the end of the day if you sell direct but have a shop front then you are a retailer / supplier. In the end the customer decides no matter how much you influence them. But the bee in my bonnet is when they dont listen then come back to you with a problem and have the notion that you can sort it out.
It a matter of jab jab jab before the right hook comes in a you need to tell them i told you so but you didn't listen.

To be 100 % honest i really struggle to see how any shop survives!! How can a retail shop who stocks the same products as another shop and really same products as most of the shops in Aus make any money when one shop decides they will run a 20% off sale and free freight Australia wide on everything in store this includes anything that might already be on sale?
Doesn't effect me as i only stock ONE but for all the shops that stock the same products as the shop doing the crazy discounting then why would you keep stocking the same stuff as this shop? you are pretty much losing all you profit and will more than likely end up with a bunch of dead stock.
I could care less if you want to give a discount when people come in or for mates but to pretty much just try and screw every other retailer in the county who are trying to do the right thing and just stay alive it really makes me wonder why you would continue to stock brands that keep supporting this crazyness!!

Who wins? well i guess the customer in the short term, what happens long term well this is the question only time will tell.

Any way

I don't understand Paul, there is competition in every business that's what capitalism is about.
I guess retail prices are set according to profit margin required. If Johnny is happy with $xx profit but you want $xxx to support your lifestyle that will be the difference.
I live in a town where for years our petrol prices were the same at all six stations, people complained that prices were high compared to other towns nearby, we were told they didn't control the prices, strangely last year one of those servos was sold to an Indian and the price dropped .10 cents Ltr. Now the other servos are dropping prices to match. funny that.

Select to expand quote

micksmith said..
I don't understand Paul, there is competition in every business that's what capitalism is about.
I guess retail prices are set according to profit margin required. If Johnny is happy with $xx profit but you want $xxx to support your lifestyle that will be the difference.
I live in a town where for years our petrol prices were the same at all six stations, people complained that prices were high compared to other towns nearby, we were told they didn't control the prices, strangely last year one of those servos was sold to an Indian and the price dropped .10 cents Ltr. Now the other servos are dropping prices to match. funny that.

Maybe there is nothing wrong with it and this is just the way of the world , but i know the margins and when hard working shop owners are making nothing and i mean nothing after trying to match stupid prices and what ever margin is left is going towards paying rent and any other outgoings it just never really sits that well. The topic is about the state of the industry and i guess this is where the state of the industry is at right now. When a sale runs at 20% off for 4 weeks or more then why bother even having the retail price set why not just have the price set at the discounted rate? Either some company's are making way to much money or some one is losing out somewhere?

People want shops but for shops to survive they need to make a certain margin and right now that margin is getting smashed, If most shops are already only just getting by then how do you think your local will go when they have to take another 20% off just to keep a local customer from shopping some where else?

Maybe i am just a bit more old school thinking and this screwing everyone else just to make a buck is the best way forward.

Competition is also great and really helps push the sport along and have no issue with good fair competition it just never sits that well when i know maybe it is hurting so many others but if most people are happy with this kind of thing in our tiny little industry then really i am just one little voice and we will just keep rolling along.

Select to expand quote

paul.j said..

micksmith said..
I don't understand Paul, there is competition in every business that's what capitalism is about.
I guess retail prices are set according to profit margin required. If Johnny is happy with $xx profit but you want $xxx to support your lifestyle that will be the difference.
I live in a town where for years our petrol prices were the same at all six stations, people complained that prices were high compared to other towns nearby, we were told they didn't control the prices, strangely last year one of those servos was sold to an Indian and the price dropped .10 cents Ltr. Now the other servos are dropping prices to match. funny that.

Maybe there is nothing wrong with it and this is just the way of the world , but i know the margins and when hard working shop owners are making nothing and i mean nothing after trying to match stupid prices and what ever margin is left is going towards paying rent and any other outgoings it just never really sits that well. The topic is about the state of the industry and i guess this is where the state of the industry is at right now. When a sale runs at 20% off for 4 weeks or more then why bother even having the retail price set why not just have the price set at the discounted rate? Either some company's are making way to much money or some one is losing out somewhere?

People want shops but for shops to survive they need to make a certain margin and right now that margin is getting smashed, If most shops are already only just getting by then how do you think your local will go when they have to take another 20% off just to keep a local customer from shopping some where else?

Maybe i am just a bit more old school thinking and this screwing everyone else just to make a buck is the best way forward.

Competition is also great and really helps push the sport along and have no issue with good fair competition it just never sits that well when i know maybe it is hurting so many others but if most people are happy with this kind of thing in our tiny little industry then really i am just one little voice and we will just keep rolling along.

Retail is tough, but you have to put in the time to make it work. Its not a matter of opening up your doors and hoping people walk in. So many good companies out there still work with retailers and want to see retailers succeed. I also want to see the one's and deep's of this world succeed as well cause again they support events, support team riders, sponsor clubs and support customers... But when fly by nighters like "tom dick and harry's SUP Boards" out of shed or garage or container is just in it for the sell... Well that is not cool.

Select to expand quote

KP. said..Retail is tough, but you have to put in the time to make it work. Its not a matter of opening up your doors and hoping people walk in. So many good companies out there still work with retailers and want to see retailers succeed. I also want to see the one's and deep's of this world succeed as well cause again they support events, support team riders, sponsor clubs and support customers... But when fly by nighters like "tom dick and harry's SUP Boards" out of shed or garage or container is just in it for the sell... Well that is not cool.

I don't think Tom Dick and Harry's SUP Boards out of a tin shed is necessarily threatening the industry. Those guys will get burnt and be stuck with half a container of crap they can't sell and will disappear into the night.

The issue here is retailers heavily discounting and offering free shipping nationwide - maybe it's just capitalism in the age of Amazon but when a retailer in one city is having to compete for local business with a retailer 2000km away, the rules of the game have changed.

Mind you, there is also the possibility that a retailer who is complaining about unfair business practices actually has a history of cutting the throats of local competitors so it could well be karma playing out. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.