Can't wait to measure my Starboards now, so when looking for a new one I guess I will be measuring each board until I find one that actually suits!

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PTWoody said...

Area10 said..

Have we EVER seen a design (especially a 17-4 one as extraordinary as the Ace GT) directly copied by a "good competing brand" let alone so closely that misinformation within an inch or so would matter?

I've personally witnessed someone measuring up a Starboard Ace with the intention of designing and building a competing product. That board was released, albeit with significant changes. By the time it reached the market, the Ace had already been out for over a year. If someone aiming to borrow some design cues has to wait for the first board to appear in shops, then he or she has missed the boat. But if you could get everything you needed from a promotional catalogue or website, that could save up to 6 months of lead time.

And for that it is worth deliberately lying to your customer?

I think I'd rather buy from a brand that puts customer service above fear of competition.

I know you are a Starboard guy, and you seem like a thoroughly decent and knowledgeable fellow. So I feel very sorry for you that Starboard keep putting you in the position of trying to defend the indefensible.

Let's be clear: If a manufacturer says a board is 28" wide then when I buy that board I expect it to be 28" wide (or as near as dammit). That really doesn't seem to much to expect, does it? If I buy a car tyre that is marked as being a 225, I'm gonna be pretty cheesed off if it's actually a 205. If I buy a bike that I'm told has 29" wheels, I'm gonna be pretty annoyed when it turns out to have 26" ones, etc etc. I'm sure that if a purchaser wanted to make a fuss for Starboard then a lawyer would have a field day with this. I'm finding it hard to see how this is not just false advertising, plain and simple.

Goods aren't as described, so therefore the manufacturers and retailers are in breach of the Trade Practices Act. You can therefore ask for a full refund, and while you're there, ask why sups are so expensive when they are manufactured in low labour cost countries. There are so many sups out there on the second hand market which has been brought about by people upgrading to the latest stuff to find that extra 0.0007km/h in speed or something. I hope this great sport isn't heading down the sailboarding great gear race pathway.. surely lessons were learnt then, because it basically squashed the sport of sailboarding. If a sup is handshaped in Maui to exact and correctly labelled specifications then accuracy is assured and the expense possibly justified. If it is computer shaped in Asia to both inaccurate and allegedly fraudulently misrepresented dimensions, then "Houston we have a problem". The consumer is sovereign.

^^^^^^
I gave that a green thumb.
As a 1 yo paddler, but some one who has been windsurfing for about 16-17 years, on of the firs things I noticed was that the windsurfing brands(starboard to the extreme, followed by naish/fanatic) are doing the same yearly "minor upgrades/changes" to their boards and the marketing department takes them for a major run around the block, trying to make us believe in our heads that the new 2014 or 15 board is going to make you go so much faster or catch a bigger wave than the old one. for someone who has seen and read that before, It makes me notice how boards like Barks,DC's and the like dont do this yearly big change ting that has almost crippled the windsurfing industry. dont get me wrong here, I know that advancements in materials and shapes do happen, but not at the level that the add dept of the companys would like you to think. me thinks that those other shappers have just made boards that work.
I am very sceptical of anything marketed by starboard as they have 'pumped up' some very average boards in the past.
I can say this with full confidence as someone who has ridden, and owned some very bad(but also good) starboard products.
In saying this,I am at prescent a very happy sailor of a good starboard product.
But I agree with bradsdubs that they are full of crap and are ripping us of for the cost of the product.

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Area10 said..

PTWoody said...

Area10 said..

Have we EVER seen a design (especially a 17-4 one as extraordinary as the Ace GT) directly copied by a "good competing brand" let alone so closely that misinformation within an inch or so would matter?

I've personally witnessed someone measuring up a Starboard Ace with the intention of designing and building a competing product. That board was released, albeit with significant changes. By the time it reached the market, the Ace had already been out for over a year. If someone aiming to borrow some design cues has to wait for the first board to appear in shops, then he or she has missed the boat. But if you could get everything you needed from a promotional catalogue or website, that could save up to 6 months of lead time.

And for that it is worth deliberately lying to your customer?

I think I'd rather buy from a brand that puts customer service above fear of competition.

I know you are a Starboard guy, and you seem like a thoroughly decent and knowledgeable fellow. So I feel very sorry for you that Starboard keep putting you in the position of trying to defend the indefensible.

Let's be clear: If a manufacturer says a board is 28" wide then when I buy that board I expect it to be 28" wide (or as near as dammit). That really doesn't seem to much to expect, does it? If I buy a car tyre that is marked as being a 225, I'm gonna be pretty cheesed off if it's actually a 205. If I buy a bike that I'm told has 29" wheels, I'm gonna be pretty annoyed when it turns out to have 26" ones, etc etc. I'm sure that if a purchaser wanted to make a fuss for Starboard then a lawyer would have a field day with this. I'm finding it hard to see how this is not just false advertising, plain and simple.

Dude, I was just answering your question - you asked for an example, I gave it to you. As for the rest, I couldn't really care. I'm rapt that Starboard decided to make this board slimmer than originally advertised. It makes it a better board for me. You can play by your highly strung principles. I'll just play with the best board. After all, this is supposed to be fun.

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Dude, I was just answering your question - you asked for an example, I gave it to you. As for the rest, I couldn't really care. I'm rapt that Starboard decided to make this board slimmer than originally advertised. It makes it a better board for me. You can play by your highly strung principles. I'll just play with the best board. After all, this is supposed to be fun.

Well if expecting not to be lied to is an example of "highly strung principles" then let's see how relaxed you are the next time you go into a bar and order a beer, and only get three-quarters of the amount that they said you would get.

We get the brands/manufacturers we deserve. The majority of contributions to this forum are probably made by people who are either sponsored or in some way have a connection or strong affiliation to the industry or a particular brand. So the rest of us ordinary punters can't rely on them to complain when a brand indulges in sharp - maybe even illegal - practice. So it comes down to people like me who are completely independent to make the case that, for instance, if I buy a board that is advertised as 28" wide, then I expect it to be 28" wide.

If people like me do not make a fuss then they will feel free to rip you all off with impunity, and people like you will be for evermore asked to sell your soul to them in supporting what you must in your heart know is a pretty bum deal for the consumer.

So, OK, you are happy that the board is much narrower than advertised. But you are a very light guy indeed. How would you feel if you were 100 kgs+ and had specifically bought this board because you'd worked out that 28" is as narrow as you can go in a race SUP? Or maybe even say 80 kgs but paddles choppy water and wants stability? It's NOT good enough from Starboard to be accurate only within 1.5 inches about the width of a board. WE deserve better, even if you think you don't.

@area10; have you actually paddled an Ace GT yet?
Reserve your judgement on whether it will or will not suit someone who bought it expecting a 28" wide board until you've actually tried it.
As I've said previously it feels much more planted and less twitchy feeling than my 17'4" Bullet and that is 26 5/8" wide if I recall and one of the most stable ocean boards you can possibly paddle. (In my opinion of course) :)
Anyone in their right mind would demo a board like this thoroughly before handing over that many hard earned beer tokens, I know I would, so they should be 100% aware of what they are buying.
So what if the number says 28" but it's actually 27"?
As long as whoever buys it likes it job done. No conspiracy there..........

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Area10 said..

Dude, I was just answering your question - you asked for an example, I gave it to you. As for the rest, I couldn't really care. I'm rapt that Starboard decided to make this board slimmer than originally advertised. It makes it a better board for me. You can play by your highly strung principles. I'll just play with the best board. After all, this is supposed to be fun.

Well if expecting not to be lied to is an example of "highly strung principles" then let's see how relaxed you are the next time you go into a bar and order a beer, and only get three-quarters of the amount that they said you would get.

We get the brands/manufacturers we deserve. The majority of contributions to this forum are probably made by people who are either sponsored or in some way have a connection or strong affiliation to the industry or a particular brand. So the rest of us ordinary punters can't rely on them to complain when a brand indulges in sharp - maybe even illegal - practice. So it comes down to people like me who are completely independent to make the case that, for instance, if I buy a board that is advertised as 28" wide, then I expect it to be 28" wide.

If people like me do not make a fuss then they will feel free to rip you all off with impunity, and people like you will be for evermore asked to sell your soul to them in supporting what you must in your heart know is a pretty bum deal for the consumer.

So, OK, you are happy that the board is much narrower than advertised. But you are a very light guy indeed. How would you feel if you were 100 kgs+ and had specifically bought this board because you'd worked out that 28" is as narrow as you can go in a race SUP? Or maybe even say 80 kgs but paddles choppy water and wants stability? It's NOT good enough from Starboard to be accurate only within 1.5 inches about the width of a board. WE deserve better, even if you think you don't.

Take a breath mate - you are all up in arms about one bloke on a forum who claims he has measured his board and it was different.
Did he measure exactly at the wide point? Did he measure right out at the rail circumference on both sides? Its such as easy thing to roughly throw a tape measure over the top and not get the correct measurement.

The previous comment in relation to the manufacturer not giving full disclosure was in relation to their new construction layups, and wanting to protect that info before full/proper release. To be honest that sounds fair enough to me (and I have absolultey no affiliation of or relatiosnhip to any manufacturer!)

It does p!ss me off that companies large or small either mislead or incorrectly mark-up/describe products they sell…..it happens all over the place. I get even more upset the more money the item. With tangible product you can see, touch, feel and accurately measure yourself. If product is marked up as X it should simply be X, there are consumer laws both here and in most mark markets these firms operate…….. this thread would not come as a surprise to a few industry types, excuses of old re: this topic should apply less as prodcutuion techinques have improved….. we could go on and on….snore.

funny all the fan boys jumping on here defending starboard.. you think they care about you? all they want is your cash..

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Kieranr said..
@area10; have you actually paddled an Ace GT yet?

Keiranr you are missing the point mate, doesn't matter how you think it paddles, it is misrepresented.

Are you going to get the same board specs as the board you demoed? Based on earlier posts on this thread, probably not..



What about the people who don't have the opportunity to demo and order from the specifications in the catalog.. its not like they are dropping a couple of dollars, they are dropping thousands..

You would hope that for the price tag they would have some quality controls in place. You see people on here all the time knocking small brands and boards from china, i'd say Thailand and big brands aren't the be all and end all.. not to mention they don't seem to hold their value in the second hand market anymore either because of upgradeitis..

This topic kinda reminds me of a conversation i had with the wife once, you know, about how much difference that extra inch makes...

Its always the last inch that counts the most!

Hee hee hee hee

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Area10 said..

Dude, I was just answering your question - you asked for an example, I gave it to you. As for the rest, I couldn't really care. I'm rapt that Starboard decided to make this board slimmer than originally advertised. It makes it a better board for me. You can play by your highly strung principles. I'll just play with the best board. After all, this is supposed to be fun.

Well if expecting not to be lied to is an example of "highly strung principles" then let's see how relaxed you are the next time you go into a bar and order a beer, and only get three-quarters of the amount that they said you would get.

We get the brands/manufacturers we deserve. The majority of contributions to this forum are probably made by people who are either sponsored or in some way have a connection or strong affiliation to the industry or a particular brand. So the rest of us ordinary punters can't rely on them to complain when a brand indulges in sharp - maybe even illegal - practice. So it comes down to people like me who are completely independent to make the case that, for instance, if I buy a board that is advertised as 28" wide, then I expect it to be 28" wide.

If people like me do not make a fuss then they will feel free to rip you all off with impunity, and people like you will be for evermore asked to sell your soul to them in supporting what you must in your heart know is a pretty bum deal for the consumer.

So, OK, you are happy that the board is much narrower than advertised. But you are a very light guy indeed. How would you feel if you were 100 kgs+ and had specifically bought this board because you'd worked out that 28" is as narrow as you can go in a race SUP? Or maybe even say 80 kgs but paddles choppy water and wants stability? It's NOT good enough from Starboard to be accurate only within 1.5 inches about the width of a board. WE deserve better, even if you think you don't.

I've had friends who are north of 120 kegs on the GT - they love it. It's a great board. I think you should worry less about my soul, tone down the moral outrage, and get back to enjoying the sport. To quote Shakespeare, There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so. In other words, worry less, play more, and save yourself an ulcer.

Ok scenario ...so the Blackholeboard you bought for this season is incorrectly labelled as 28 but is really is 27 wide. But, it's all cool, because you're happy with it even though you paid $2800 for it. So the next season Blackholeboards put out a 27 1/2 wide sup that you must buy to gain the marketed "edge" of improving your performance by 0.00007secs over a 4km course. You buy the new board for $3000, try to sell the old one for $1800, a net loss of $1200 for the year. You advertise the old board as 27 [because you are honest] even though marked as 28. No one will touch it, so you drop price to the market threshold of sub $1000, making a loss of $2000 in one year. Alternatively, you misrepresent the board as the manufacturers did as a 28 and hope to sell to the gullible masses who wouldn't be in at that market price anyway. Those in the know get that it's a 27 not a 28, and would look at the new 27.5 in any case. You then sell the board to a mate for $500 just to get rid of it, making it a loss of $2500. It'll be a great season. I'd take the board back for full refund, and insist on integrity in manufacturing and retailing. "Whatever" will not improve corporate performance. The consumer is sovereign. When you pay that much for a board made out of foam esky lid and araldite that is made in a low labour cost country, the question needs to be asked.

Yeah again, one bloke has measured his board and reckons it is different from whats written on the board.

I love a good conspiracy theory too - but with the utmost of respect, I reckon he has measured it wrong rather than the manufacturer delibaratley doing it.
What would they have to gain from doing this?

If it measure differently than why it's labelled by a fraction of it's overall dimensions and that bugs you then fair enough!

To me it's a bit like a car manufacturer saying that a car's got a 4 litre engine, when the reality is it's got a 3991cc engine. Not exactly a deal breaker for me.

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damo666 said..
Yeah again, one bloke has measured his board and reckons it is different from whats written on the board.

I love a good conspiracy theory too - but with the utmost of respect, I reckon he has measured it wrong rather than the manufacturer delibaratley doing it.
What would they have to gain from doing this?

There's quite a few of us Starby boys on this forum who have measured and found notable discrepancies in the published/printed and actually widths of Starboards. As a SB fanboy, I am surprisingly not all that upset about it. As a consumer, it's up to me to do my due diligence, know what I am purchasing and if dissatisfied, I need to take it up with the dealer or distributor.

As far as legal rights and misrepresentation, that's an unsupportable position. If the board is narrower, Starboard can claim they are measuring to a point in the center rail profile. If the board is wider, they can claim they are measuring from point to point in a continuous curve including the bottom and part of the rail profile. Most Surfboard, Ski and Snowboard lengths are now measured the same way, along the bottom and including the rocker. That's not intuitive or old school or how I do it, but... Point is, they can measure to their own standards and change them as they go and fool their competitors along the way.

If you're an Ace nut and an unlimited nut and are seriously crazy enough to spend an insane amount of money for a board; I doubt if an inch or so will dissuade you from purchasing or keeping said board no matter how big or small you are. It will certainly be the kind of board they will have to pry out of their "cold dead hands"

Baddog has nailed it with that last line. I have a queue forming for my trade in GT but all I can say is, 'Boys, you may need to be very patient because I'm not selling this one!'

So length includes the arc of the rocker, now? Great for me because I've just remeasured my "length" with that in mind, and I'm now proud to say that, technically speaking, I'm 6 inches longer than I originally thought due to the said rocker curve inclusion. This actually makes me very happy! The reason why I'm so happy is that I can now enter mine into competitions. So my 9'6" will now qualify for the 10' and over Wavesup competitions which I haven't been able to enter previously. I hope the organisers accept my entry application registration which will say...Laguna Bay 9'6" wavesup but, with rocker curve, it is really truly a 10 footer ...

I hope I measured it right. Maybe I should measure it from the wide point next time.. assuming the wide point is the widest point, that is.....

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Todzilla said..
This topic kinda reminds me of a conversation i had with the wife once, you know, about how much difference that extra inch makes...