I dont think nets are the solution , the by catch is pretty bad and anyway you cant net every beach. Interesting storey down south about a pod of killer whales killing a white and know all the other sharks have fled the area , leaving the shark diving operators with nothing to show. I think a lot more money should be put into electronic deterrents on a large scale. My belief is your in their domain you take the risk , simple as that.

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Piros said..
Maybe Cull is the wrong word , lets look at prevention. The Gold Coast a has pretty sparse system of nets and drum lines and no attacks in over 50 years. You only need to head South 20 mins and the attacks start happening in Northern NSW where there is no nets or drum lines. These recent attacks were only about 80 to 100km's as the crow flies from the Gold Coast. All the great whites migrate start past the Gold Coast and no attacks , the nets and drums only pick up a few but it does seem to keep them away. So maybe the sharks have learnt not to come close or they can sense the wire on the drums or the nets , as a fisherman I know you hook up less on wire than mono.

The coastline of Qld and NSW is vastly different with a lot more headlands and close reefs in NSW so maybe that might have something to do with it. It wouldn't cost much to do a trail a try the nets or drum lines instead of spending 100's of 1000's of dollars like they did in WA for no result.

Before anyone gets on here and starts save the shark no nets we are in their domain , you do realise that 10's of 1000's of sharks are killed every DAY for their fins , so if you want to save some sharks go to the Sea Shepard link below where 100 million sharks are killed every year and donate some money to help try and stop it.

The nets might only pick up 50 to a 100 sharks a year but if that saves just one life it’s well worth IMHO…..Flame suit on

seashepherd.org/2015/01/09/sharks-dont-kill-people-people-who-kill-sharks-kill-people/?gclid=Cj0KEQiA9eamBRDqvIz_qPbVteABEiQAnIBTECkiRbmaVHnhOR1vDQA2j5jC61FmKA53ziJ9F_uPUy8aAt218P8HAQ

Great to hear some common sense comment on this divisive issue. I too hate the whole "You're in their environment ...." line. I'm in the water a few hours almost every day .... pretty sure it's my environment too. No I don't want a cull, but we should be able to take a few preventative measures to preserve human lives, and if it costs the lives of a few sharks then so be it. In the scheme of things the number of sharks affected by these sorts of measures is completely insignificant compared to the numbers being lost to fin fishermen in asia. That's where the problem lies in shark numbers.

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MickMc said..

Piros said..
Maybe Cull is the wrong word , lets look at prevention. The Gold Coast a has pretty sparse system of nets and drum lines and no attacks in over 50 years. You only need to head South 20 mins and the attacks start happening in Northern NSW where there is no nets or drum lines. These recent attacks were only about 80 to 100km's as the crow flies from the Gold Coast. All the great whites migrate start past the Gold Coast and no attacks , the nets and drums only pick up a few but it does seem to keep them away. So maybe the sharks have learnt not to come close or they can sense the wire on the drums or the nets , as a fisherman I know you hook up less on wire than mono.

The coastline of Qld and NSW is vastly different with a lot more headlands and close reefs in NSW so maybe that might have something to do with it. It wouldn't cost much to do a trail a try the nets or drum lines instead of spending 100's of 1000's of dollars like they did in WA for no result.

Before anyone gets on here and starts save the shark no nets we are in their domain , you do realise that 10's of 1000's of sharks are killed every DAY for their fins , so if you want to save some sharks go to the Sea Shepard link below where 100 million sharks are killed every year and donate some money to help try and stop it.

The nets might only pick up 50 to a 100 sharks a year but if that saves just one life it’s well worth IMHO…..Flame suit on

seashepherd.org/2015/01/09/sharks-dont-kill-people-people-who-kill-sharks-kill-people/?gclid=Cj0KEQiA9eamBRDqvIz_qPbVteABEiQAnIBTECkiRbmaVHnhOR1vDQA2j5jC61FmKA53ziJ9F_uPUy8aAt218P8HAQ

Great to hear some common sense comment on this divisive issue. I too hate the whole "You're in their environment ...." line. I'm in the water a few hours almost every day .... pretty sure it's my environment too. No I don't want a cull, but we should be able to take a few preventative measures to preserve human lives, and if it costs the lives of a few sharks then so be it. In the scheme of things the number of sharks affected by these sorts of measures is completely insignificant compared to the numbers being lost to fin fishermen in asia. That's where the problem lies in shark numbers.

OR could it be like other countries are claiming, that have tried to cull sharks. By killing of the large sharks like Great Whites, we have allowed other breads that would normally be kept in check, like Bull sharks grow and expand and now they are what is actually attacking people?

I've said it many times and the reds don't bother me, but In Hawaii they culled over 4500 large sharks. Those sharks being removed have done just that, enabled smaller sharks to bread though and now attacks are going through the roof. In reunion, they are trying to bring back a balance also, by creating marine reserves, to give more fish an opportunity to breed, hopefully bringing back the larger sharks.

Their is a saying, a Healthy Ocean needs sharks. We just need to interact more safely with them. The amount of money being spent, could easily be better channeled to more effective solutions..

fair comments rob imo

So sad, our thoughts go out to his family, friends and loved ones.

Well said Piros.

This information is straight from the DPI website. http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/357438/nsw-shark-meshing-prgram.pdf The shark meshing (netting) program has been in operation in NSW since 1937 and has expanded over time, there are now nets in place from Stockton to South Wollongong and within this time there has only been one fatal attack at a netted beach which occurred at Merewether in 1951. Interestingly from 1900 to 1936 (before the nets were in place) there was an average of one fatal attack a year.

From this information I would have to say that the nets are working especially when you consider the increase in population, and from what I could find the nets catch (kill) between 69 to 158 sharks per year.

I agree Piros, statistics show massive drops in fatal shark attacks after they put the drum lines and nets in. Before that we had a lot up here too.. You only have to look on the old surf club walls up here for a few horror stories pre shark net days. The only way governments will do something is when tourists themselves stop wanting to swim/visit the area. Especially the mums of young surfers who would not be keen to go to Ballina any time soon on a family surfing holiday. This causes a massive drop in revenue. Then the council must act to stop the bad press of having too many man eating predatory monsters tarnishing their perfect tourist holiday image. Tourists will flock to other areas where there is less perceived risk of death/injury. For example..Queensland . it is such a shame that we need this many shark attacks and deaths before something is done to prevent this at a council and State government level. As a result, I believe this death was unnecessary and preventable. RIP Tadashi.

I'm no fisheries scientist, though I did start off working for fisheries research in NSW a long time ago and have been a shark nut for a long time. but first and foremost I'm into my surfing and sincere condolences to the poor mans family for their loss. It is tragic, and ona personal level it is the way I least want to go.

ive also had the dubious pleasure of reading the thread on the go about this on swell net, and there seems to be just one bloke on there speaking any sense about this as of last night who sounds like he has any background in it. The flap some people are in belies the highly emotional nature of the issue - nobody wants to meet this fate, and it freaks us all out, especially those of us who have seen a decent shark up close and personal.

i worked witht the shark researchers in charge of the netting in sydney in the early 90s, and I remember being rather chilled by the fact that a ridiculous proportion of them (over half at least) were caught on the beach side of the net. As I understand it, a key issue is the bycatch - all the critters that either get caught in the nets or get hooked on the drumlines which are not dangerous sharks. Plus the whales that get entangled. another reason, which is a bit ironic, is that these trapped/hooked critters in the nest and lines actually attract sharks from a much wider area. Sharks can sense low frequency vibrations (thrashing in the water, like a struggling animal) for something like up to 1.5km. They can detect blood from a long way. They can sense electrical signals in the water and tell if you are alive or dead. Or freaking out that they are next to you.

im of the view that f there was good science behind increased protective measures the government/s would have done it, as human life will trump animal welfare or environmental protection every time. If there was proof that it works, it would happen. I have not heard of any proper scientific work ( and there has been quite a bit invested in it over the years) that shows it has a measurable effect. It seems to be done so that the pollies can tell the people they are doing everything they can, all the while knowing it might reduce the chance of an attack by a bees dick if at all.

On the other side, I have heard the are a lot more sharks around in the last year or three. My mates up the east coast report heaps of sightings and the headlines speak for themselves. We can't ignore anecdotal evidence, but we can't use it to put in place an effective control r protection measure either. I think all surfers should get onto their local members about it to get some serious funding for shark research so that we have half an idea of what is happening. Until then, we need to acknowledge that we are tempting fate every time we paddle out.

+1 Tang well said.

I disagree. It works in Queensland. Queensland politicians value the lives of people at our beaches. While you guys down South consult your scientists, prepare your scientific research reports and lobby your governments, people are unnecessarily going to be attacked by large sharks while this dithering goes on. It might take three or more fatal shark attacks before something gets done. Hopefully they will follow the lead of a State who got it right.

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porchey73 said..
I disagree. It works in Queensland. Queensland politicians value the lives of people at our beaches. While you guys down South consult your scientists, prepare your scientific research reports and lobby your governments, people are unnecessarily going to be attacked by large sharks while this dithering goes on. It might take three or more fatal shark attacks before something gets done. Hopefully they will follow the lead of a State who got it right.

Actually the QLD government often refer to the point that the nets work, mostly only as a perceived protection and so are working. IE people are not too scared to swim as they THINK they are being protected. There are many places in the world that don't Net or Drum line and still don't have fatale shark attacks..

The WA government paid for a Report from Bond Uni before they considered what to do. The report said Drum lines would not work, but nets would. The reason they said nets would work is by firstly thinning out the local fish population, therefor removing the food source for the sharks.

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Tang said..
I'm no fisheries scientist, though I did start off working for fisheries research in NSW a long time ago and have been a shark nut for a long time. but first and foremost I'm into my surfing and sincere condolences to the poor mans family for their loss. It is tragic, and ona personal level it is the way I least want to go.

ive also had the dubious pleasure of reading the thread on the go about this on swell net, and there seems to be just one bloke on there speaking any sense about this as of last night who sounds like he has any background in it. The flap some people are in belies the highly emotional nature of the issue - nobody wants to meet this fate, and it freaks us all out, especially those of us who have seen a decent shark up close and personal.

i worked witht the shark researchers in charge of the netting in sydney in the early 90s, and I remember being rather chilled by the fact that a ridiculous proportion of them (over half at least) were caught on the beach side of the net. As I understand it, a key issue is the bycatch - all the critters that either get caught in the nets or get hooked on the drumlines which are not dangerous sharks. Plus the whales that get entangled. another reason, which is a bit ironic, is that these trapped/hooked critters in the nest and lines actually attract sharks from a much wider area. Sharks can sense low frequency vibrations (thrashing in the water, like a struggling animal) for something like up to 1.5km. They can detect blood from a long way. They can sense electrical signals in the water and tell if you are alive or dead. Or freaking out that they are next to you.

im of the view that f there was good science behind increased protective measures the government/s would have done it, as human life will trump animal welfare or environmental protection every time. If there was proof that it works, it would happen. I have not heard of any proper scientific work ( and there has been quite a bit invested in it over the years) that shows it has a measurable effect. It seems to be done so that the pollies can tell the people they are doing everything they can, all the while knowing it might reduce the chance of an attack by a bees dick if at all.

On the other side, I have heard the are a lot more sharks around in the last year or three. My mates up the east coast report heaps of sightings and the headlines speak for themselves. We can't ignore anecdotal evidence, but we can't use it to put in place an effective control r protection measure either. I think all surfers should get onto their local members about it to get some serious funding for shark research so that we have half an idea of what is happening. Until then, we need to acknowledge that we are tempting fate every time we paddle out.

Yep couldn't agree more great post. We should as surfers be demanding better and more transparent research.

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porchey73 said..
I disagree. It works in Queensland. Queensland politicians value the lives of people at our beaches. While you guys down South consult your scientists, prepare your scientific research reports and lobby your governments, people are unnecessarily going to be attacked by large sharks while this dithering goes on. It might take three or more fatal shark attacks before something gets done. Hopefully they will follow the lead of a State who got it right.

Fair enough, porchey, but I am not sure that the issue is quite that clear cut. The qld dept of fisheries did their last review (that I can find) of the drumline program in 2006. They said it was effective, though they called for further research in a range of areas, as anyone with a science background knows you need to dig deeper to sort out what is really happening and things are rarely what they seem. You can google it. Also on the web is a thought provoking article by Sea Shepherd about how the "effectiveness" of the queensland program is a bit misleading. I also find it interesting that the qld dept of fisheries runs the program and then also review the program. An independent review could be useful.

to sound like a bit of a prat, we do dangerous things all the time, and you only have to look at the road toll to see where we really lose a lot of people In often just as gut wrenching or bloody circumstances. it's all horrible. Until we have a remotely decent idea about what to do I'd prefer to invest in good knowledge....if you see that as dithering, then so be it.

I'm assuming you're aware of the Amity fatality in jan 2007 (I think) at one of queenslands "protected" beaches? Just after that government report on the effectiveness of the program was released In 2006......?

If a 4 metre plus whitey comes too close to the shore where beachgoers are , and stays around - blow it away , simple ... we do it with crocodiles so what's the difference ???

I'm not sure if you can see this link on FB or not....

It goes to show you the validity of a 'rogue' shark... The shark in this video is nuts.... Put it near people and there is trouble. Not saying that they should be culled but when you have a whole boat of shark people run away from this thing in a big boat... well. A surfer has no chance.


www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153768988723357&pnref=story

Just got in from the surf,stormy,grey, sharky as ****, but what do you do not surf no thanks.As surfers we take risks every time we enter the ocean,sharks are one big scary risk but it's our choice to be out there.
Not sure what the answer is to stop attacks but any human interference in the marine ecosystem should be carefully researched and planned out,not just an emotion driven slaughter of an apex predator essential to the health of the ocean we all love . Hopefully this thread can be a positive one on how we as surfers can get together use our collective ocean experience and voting power to put pressure on the powers that be,to find a solution through sound scientific research where nature and surfers can both benifit.
I dedicated my first set wave to our lost surfing brother RIP fella.

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teatrea said..
My belief is your in their domain you take the risk , simple as that.

NO The sharks are in my domain they take the risk, simple as that

Lets get some facts straight no deaths on beaches protected by nets & drum lines by since 1962 on the Gold Coast and 1937 in Sydney. How many sharks caught in the nets or drums on the Gold Coast in 2014 ? 500 , 400 , 200 no only 56 with just 4 whites. By catch just one turtle died. So lets get this slaughter out of the argument. Why do the nets & drum lines work over time they take out the resident predator just like the crocs that hang at boat ramps looking for an easy feed. Do drum lines attract other sharks ? yes they do and on one hook was a 3 foot shark eaten by a 6 foot shark then by an 8 foot shark thats why the nets and drums are set out wide. Greenmount is the closets at 500m all the rest are 700m all very far from shore. So no they don't bring sharks in close. The whites and other sharks have learnt to stay out wide and follow the whale migration.

Sharks learn very fast like the whales to avoid these areas , in the 60's the whales would head out to sea at Double Island Point to avoid the whalers from Tangalooma. Thats why whaling shut down in 1962 at Tangalooma they only caught 60 of their 600 quoter. In 1982 Whites were protected and it's taken a while but their numbers are way up and with that comes the monster resident. The nets and drums can only deal with sharks up to 4.5m above that they break free , without some control or protection you will get a monster predator just hanging at your local break snacking on your's or your mates legs.

Why do the sharks come in closer at Northern NSW because the reef line does that's why the Greenmount nets are closer. Nets & drums work you don't have to be a marine biologists to work it out they target the dominate resident same as crocs up North but if you are happy to loose one of your mates or kids and simply say "Hey we are in their domain" so be it , Peace to you brother.

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Piros said..
Lets get some facts straight no deaths on beaches protected by nets & drum lines by since 1962 on the Gold Coast and 1937 in Sydney. How many sharks caught in the nets or drums in the Gold Coast in 2014 ? 500 , 400 , 200 no only 56 with just 4 whites. By catch just one turtle died. So lets get this slaughter out of the argument. Why do the nets & drum lines work over time they take out the resident predator just like the crocs that hang at boat ramps looking for an easy feed. do drum lines attract other sharks ? yes they do and on one hook was a 3 foot shark eaten by a 6 foot shark then by an 8 foot shark thats why the nets an drums are set out wide. Greenmount is the closets at 500m all the rest are 700m all very far from shore. So no they don't bring sharks in close. the whites and other sharks have learnt to stay out wide and follow the whale migration

Sharks learn very fast like the whales to avoid these areas , in the 60's the whales would head out to sea at Double Island Point to avoid the whalers from Tangalooma. Thats why whaling shut down in 1962 at Tangalooma they only caught 60 of their 600 quoter. In 1982 Whites were protected and it's taken a while but their numbers are way up and with that comes the monster resident. The nets and drums can only deal with sharks up to 4.5m above that they break free , without some control or protection you will get a monster predator just hanging at your local break snacking on yours or your mates legs.

Why do the sharks come in closer at Northern NSW because the reef line does that's why the Greenmount nets are closer. Nets & drums work you don't have to be a marine biologists to work it out they target the dominate resident same as crocs up North but if you are happy to loose one of your mates or kids and simply say ' Hey we are in their domain" so be it , Peace to you brother.

hate responding to all the shark threads,because they all turn into **** fights...but very well stated

My thoughts go out to the family. What a horrible thing to happen. My local is the most northern surf beach on the east coast. Not huge normally, but still a lot of fun. We've had some significant rain events just recently, and coupled with a strong cross shore wind, makes for some murky water. There is no way in hell the local council, state or federal governments will spend money to net our beach. We all know we're dreaming. As a SUPper I know I can see more than most and alert the clubby when I spot a shark or sharks. It's difficult when you're trying to encourage your kids in the surf. Plenty around at the moment, mainly bullys. If I had the choice there would be none. After spending the last 15 years or so in the islands and the northern
territory I would rather be in close quarters with a shark than a salt water crocodile anyday......

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Piros said..
Lets get some facts straight no deaths on beaches protected by nets & drum lines by since 1962 on the Gold Coast and 1937 in Sydney. How many sharks caught in the nets or drums on the Gold Coast in 2014 ? 500 , 400 , 200 no only 56 with just 4 whites. By catch just one turtle died. So lets get this slaughter out of the argument. Why do the nets & drum lines work over time they take out the resident predator just like the crocs that hang at boat ramps looking for an easy feed. Do drum lines attract other sharks ? yes they do and on one hook was a 3 foot shark eaten by a 6 foot shark then by an 8 foot shark thats why the nets and drums are set out wide. Greenmount is the closets at 500m all the rest are 700m all very far from shore. So no they don't bring sharks in close. The whites and other sharks have learnt to stay out wide and follow the whale migration.

Sharks learn very fast like the whales to avoid these areas , in the 60's the whales would head out to sea at Double Island Point to avoid the whalers from Tangalooma. Thats why whaling shut down in 1962 at Tangalooma they only caught 60 of their 600 quoter. In 1982 Whites were protected and it's taken a while but their numbers are way up and with that comes the monster resident. The nets and drums can only deal with sharks up to 4.5m above that they break free , without some control or protection you will get a monster predator just hanging at your local break snacking on your's or your mates legs.

Why do the sharks come in closer at Northern NSW because the reef line does that's why the Greenmount nets are closer. Nets & drums work you don't have to be a marine biologists to work it out they target the dominate resident same as crocs up North but if you are happy to loose one of your mates or kids and simply say "Hey we are in their domain" so be it , Peace to you brother.

Yeah nets are awesome. No nets at my local and no attacks, so i guess that proves they don't work

I love Science but sound science can take a long time and is often selected for grants by our politicians. An example of .. Japanese Whaling scientists and the continued debate over global warming after it was raised in the 1960's. I am a fan of history instead. When there is a critical mass of apex predators in your local area , we, and our children, unfortunately start becoming part of the food chain again. It happened up in Cairns with the Crocodiles.
Scientists can say anything if they are paid enough... For example ...cigarettes. Wouldn't you start with an effective system with limited by catch that is happening up here at present and then tweak it slowly with science to achieve the best of both worlds? I'm sure there are a lot of scientists that will be putting up their hand for a six month research contract on this issue. They should be researching what is happening in Qld where there is an effective system in place that is backed up by statistics..

I just heard that two sharks were spotted yesterday in the Ballina area one 3 and the other 4 meters report from a helicopter crew.

Roll out the drum lines and nets. Trial them for a couple of years and see if the attacks reduce.
What have we got to lose-money? I'm more than happy to contribute my tax dollars for a trial, especially if it prevents Mondays events happening again. Even if it stops one or two losses of human life they will have paid for themselves 10 fold.
Shocking way to go, his poor family. RIP mate.

Very interesting reading and great ideas,BUT what I'm saying is what was this guy doing different to everybody else.If all the stories are even half true this shark swam under 20 guys to attack one guy????We all know never surf alone, never surf after dusk or before dawn,never surf in dirty water.So surly there is some scientist with more degrees than a thermometer who can make sense of it.If they say this guy was doing this or doing that,and to lessen your chance of an attack you don't do it.It seems to me that if a study was done on all victims,to see if there was a common denominator,that caused the shark to attack.that a study like that would be cheaper and save more lives.If they proved it was a case of "wrong place ,wrong time" or **** happens,then go with nets drum lines and destroying rogues.But,we are in their territory,let's see if by,us changing our board and body positioning or I heard a suggestion we paint eyes and bodies on the bottom of our boards (????),can that lessen your chance of an attack.

I just saw this headline and are pasting it here on the fly. I haven't had time to read it yet but the headline caught my eye.

App: Check Your Phone For Sharks Before Paddling Out

www.theinertia.com/surf/check-your-phone-for-sharks-before-paddling-out/

Don't know if this was on Seabreeze earlier. This is from TEDx Perth.
Very interesting preventative look

That was really good and what a great speaker definitely has some merit ,but you need to wear a steamer not so good . The board pattern I really like and if sharks see in grey scale JP may have fluked it. When I do another custom I'll definitely go the black and white stripes and maybe the major manufacturers could look at it as well or maybe just wear a pair of Collingwood footy socks

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JoffaDan said..
Roll out the drum lines and nets. Trial them for a couple of years and see if the attacks reduce.
What have we got to lose-money? I'm more than happy to contribute my tax dollars for a trial, especially if it prevents Mondays events happening again. Even if it stops one or two losses of human life they will have paid for themselves 10 fold.
Shocking way to go, his poor family. RIP mate.

But what if the attacks don't reduce in numbers then what

Its just that in WA they tried to sell Drum lines to us by saying "They have used drum lines and Nets on the Eastern seaboard for over 50 years with huge success". Are you saying that after 50 years of Drum lines and nets attack numbers haven't reduced in numbers

Queensland has had a reduced number of attacks after the program has been setup. This has occurred due to an effective program that stretches way up the fnq coast on the 2nd biggest coastline of all the states. There are attacks now and then but nothing like the number in other states with an ineffective program. Up in Cairns tourists stopped visiting certain beaches and areas through fear and the locals started to take matters into their own hands after being scared too many times. This hastened the response from council who was inundated in the letters to the editor every week enquiring why they were just putting up croc signs everywhere. Your councils need to be more proactive in fixing this problem as it will bring unnecessary tragedy into your local beachgoing community and tourist revenue will drop.

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porchey73 said..
Queensland has had a reduced number of attacks after the program has been setup. This has occurred due to an effective program that stretches way up the fnq coast on the 2nd biggest coastline of all the states. There are attacks now and then but nothing like the number in other states with an ineffective program. Up in Cairns tourists stopped visiting certain beaches and areas through fear and the locals started to take matters into their own hands after being scared too many times. This hastened the response from council who was inundated in the letters to the editor every week enquiring why they were just putting up croc signs everywhere. Your councils need to be more proactive in fixing this problem as it will bring unnecessary tragedy into your local beachgoing community and tourist revenue will drop.

Tas don't have drums or nets, they have big sharks yet hardly any attacks. SO could you not say that by not having drums and nets, they have reduced attack numbers..