Hi JB,
It's interesting how power seems to get better results than cadence although you still have Avery high rate compared to mine, you must be a lot younger
i don't think you or I are over thinking this as you see results straight away when you try different styles of paddling instead of just doing one thing. A good catch with the paddle is critical, how far do you bury it when you go for power?

burchas said..

DaveSandan said..
...no matter how hard I push, my heart rate stays around this level.

I don't find it odd. some people are like that. I used to do triathlon training with my father and he was always between 110-120 after a bike and run session.

As for JB revelation, I'm surprised he was posting such good results without the Puakea technic, but that's a good resource.
The one thing I don't remember he was stressing enough was the core engagement during the stroke. Once I brought my core strength up to speed, Heart rate dropped (though a non issue for you)

Yes, I think I aways had a part of what Puakea advises in my stroke, but never really based enough emphasis on it. I always thought my catch was good - WRONG! Also his talk of more time in the water and less in the air, makes a huge difference. These are all just the basic first steps at the whole paddle tech. In just being patient and getting a proper catch and going longer in the water and shorter in the air I went quicker. And now I just tried the same tech at MAF (75%) and blew near a minute off my 5km.







This was pretty incredible. So just working on catch and water vs air made this much of a difference. Next is to get Lat tension and more core drive, but I am not rushing it, as I need to imbed the first things first. Adding too much is not good. As Johnny says, over 90% of people who say they have a good catch, don't! I was one of them. Also interesting listening to the Tahitian OC6 coach talking about muscle tension, pull ups and their relation to strokes. I will likely bring these into my technique sooner.

Tick list.
- Be patient and get 100% solid catch every time (pretty good now).
- Match the paddle speed in the water to the hull speed. Increase water time 2:1 with air time. (I'm about 65% there I think)
- Don't over reach forward. (Think Im about 60%) Need to run the drills he shows, apparently very helpful.
- Top hand does not go forward!. (about 50% on this) tough one to break, most of us don't realise we're doing it.
- Top hand pressure is only down. (pretty good on this one) I thought I was doing this, but now I am (I think)
- Bottom arm pulls until elbow in inline with torso before beginning exit (50/50)
- Get equal load on both Lats. (Yet to start looking into this one)
- Relax all muscles on recovery. (trying this a little, but need to perfect the stroke first)

And there is still plenty more to take on board. Planning to do some self video coaching soon. As I need to get the first things solid first before I go complicating things. But so far, very impressed.

regards,

JB

tarquin1 said..
As you said JB I think you need a video to really see what's going on. I know what I think I am doing and what I am actually doing are 2 different things.

Yes, it is too funny. I don't think I had a bad technique, but when I really nailed down to individual parts I could find something to improve on in each part. I guess the real tell tale is going faster

burchas said..

Windgenuity said..
I guess the real tell tale is going faster

I think the best tell tale is the speed per cadence as you posted.

I ran a cadence test on 12.6x27 on one of my frequent training courses just over 12km
See if I can match my PB with the 12.6 only with much lower cadence. I chose my larger Trifecta 86 for this course
since I knew I could keep focus and good form over this shorter distance and the Trifecta can be very rewarding in lower cadence if you employ
the Puakea technic and a 2:1 stroke ratio. The result was clear, I broke my PB with 4spm lower average at 48spm still maintaining 9.3km/h average moving speed. The DPS metric also followed suit and increased to a 3.2 meter per stroke.

Nice, Wow that really supports the theory. All technique. Look at that HR too, nice! Everything makes sense when you get it. Listening to Puakea again and also Danny Ching and about how you can feel it because it's hard (as in the catch), and then doing it, it all just ties in together. Then the more you do it and train with it, the stronger you will get and faster. It's all big muscle groups. Training at MAF allows you to lock in your technique.

Well done!!

I am still taking it slow until I really get it dialled. But tried something new last night based on the Outrigger stance, and it was a flop. Still ran a good time, 34min 5km at 74% effort (137bpm av. max 149 at the 180 buoy turn). Also played with a different fin which I fear was slow (lol). But managed to get some good distance per stroke at 3.52m with a cadence of 41.5 av. (52 max cadence). Av pace 6'50"/km (8.77km/h).

Great to hear your findings.

Plan to do a 10km slow lap this weekend. Maybe another 5km before then if I can get on the lake before the sun goes down.

A total side note, what fin are you using?

Ride safe,

JB

Oh dont start on fins as well!
Paddle length,blade size,cadence.
I am sure burchas will chip in, he is a wealth of knowledge. There were some good posts about fins on standupzone he was involved in.
I dont know but I think the Danny Ching fin is huge. I nearly bought one. Then I saw one! I think you want the smallest fin possible for flatwater/time trials. I imagine the VMG fin is a faster fin in the flat as long as you are ok with the stability and tracking.
I could be completely wrong and cant afford to buy 200 euro fins to experiment! Which is why info from burchas and others is great. Thanks. Not the guy in the shop saying its awsome buy it.

9 km/h average on a 12 km course is not given to everybody by a long shot :-) I would need a strong tide at my back to get there so definitely Burchas is doing everything right.
I do believe that when you have an acceptable technique then the intensity of the effort you can provide on each stroke and maintain over a long time is the most significant difference. I whimp out and can't sustain that is for sure but I can see the difference on the screen of the GPS....

You guys made me think and take another look at DPS, SPM and other fun stuff that I had not looked at since long forums discussion with Bryce Dyer and others at StandUp Zone.
I just ran Average Speed / Average Stroke Per Minute as a kind of "efficiency" measurement for all my paddles and boards in different conditions. i.e. it makes a lot let sense during a downwind that on flat water....
In most cases, it came out the highest ratio matching the highest average speed but there were a few exceptions.

It seems that when you go down to 40-45 and posting 3.4m per stroke there is some idling in effect. If the tidal force is strong, you could be at 3.8 even 4 which is not unheard of. Slower cadence and longer than 2:1 with the tide. Fast cadence and 1:1 against if tidal effect is substantial, otherwise, you maybe loosing ground as it's unlikely you'll maintain board speed since you're always fighting to bring the board up to speed.

So if paddle entry and exit is the same with no slip, does that mean blade size is irrelevant??

Great video and that feels like what I am trying to do but would have to do the same to see, with lock down coming I may be back on the water more often sooner than planned so I can try it out.

burchas said..
Man, now that's what I call commitment JB. Bravo. I can't get motivated enough to bring myself to that effort level.
Looking at your video analysis, I have few ideas for improvements. The torso twist and hinge at the hip before power sounds good.

Maybe you can post again once you included these 2 additions. also add-in the passes in real speed rather than just slo-mo so one can get the feel of the motion. Awesome stuff!

This was pass number 1. I did about 10 passes. I will find another good sample and mark up too.

1. Hinge more at the hips
2. bury the blade deeper (will happen from above)
3. A little more torso twist (not much, just a little as I carry back issues).

Thanks, a great tool.

Regards,

JB

Noodle-tech video #2. Stroke on the starboard side. A little more torso twist which is interesting, also maybe a little more hip hinge. Good DPS at probably just over 3m.



Always very interesting breaking it down. This was all before my 10km yesterday. I think I want to do another noodle run now.

Ride safe,

JB

Thanks Burchas,

Yes, timing the Hinge and catch are something to definitely work on. But also more important for me is not to power on too early and slip. Just a tight balance. From what I could gather, not powering too early is more important.

I have always been conscious of the tail sink. It is one of the main reasons I went with the 24" wide over the 22" to try get some more lift. I also nearly thing I am standing too far back still. I have a little more nose clearance than I think I need. But definitely coming on late with the hinge and body weight will bring everything back.

Thanks heaps for the insights. Gives me more and more to work on.

Back to the noodle this weekend I think.

Regards,

JB

JB said..
BTW, I like that I am being modelled off Travis LOL .

I think more knee bend may help too? I seem pretty straight in the knee?? This would help engage earlier and get more reach without over reaching.

So much to dial in

Yes, you're in good company Travis is a master technician. No wasted movement. He's about the same built/height as I am and therefor my
go to model.

I understand your comment about powering-on too early, definitely important point. That's where the setup leading to the catch coming into play. There's over-reaching and then there is reaching. Check out the picture below. You are 6'2" Travis is 5'9"


He has about a foot over you at the entry, almost identical bend at the knee. That's where your deficit starts. With this angle of attack I reckon you're giving-up 20% at the catch and the best core connection, all before you even start pushing down on the paddle.

There are more things involved here than meets the eye. It's not just that he is more hunched. Look at the angle of the shaft.
This is key. Analyze what he does leading to this angle. That movement creates more reach, but more important, it's how you time your hinging with the entry.

burchas said..
In regards to board pitch, it looks like you're on the sweet spot of the board, toes slightly forward center. You might be pushing water if you're going to move forward but that's something you can easily test and address with a GPS. If you can trim it better for flat water that's going to be
very helpful.

Beyond that I can see an immediate culprit you can address. Take a look at the picture below.


At this point you're still pulling the paddle, you can even see slight bent in the shaft, meaning you're pulling the blade upward which contributes to the tail sink. At the point where the blade is past your feet you should only be pushing down. ( see Travis )

Other than that, The Javelin does seem to have unbalanced Nose to tail volume ratio. My guess would be 10+ Liter difference . I think it's by
design, I like it when going in upwind chop, bottom turn and catching bumps, but downside is that extra pitch when trying to maintain top speed paddling flat water.

good catch . I was doing this a while ago too, and thought I had eliminated it. I guess while working on pother things I have fallen back into some bad habits. I heavily sink the tail when I do this.

Did a good 16.43km paddle on the weekend. Super bumpy with boat wake side on regularly and a 5kn North wind. 50/50 with and against.
Time: 1:58:42.
Speed: 8.3kmh average.
HR: 138bpm average (MAF). (150bpm Max)
7'13"/km pace.
Cadence 40.5spm average / 56spm max.
DPS = 3.44m average.

I really worked hard on hinging early to combine with my catch and relaxing on the recovery to keep HR down. Nearly went in a bout 6 times I reckon with boat wakes hitting me from the side - real annoying and costly to energy. But I am super happy with the result.

Here's my route,


Obviously the 5kn helped a bit on he way south, but punished me at the beginning and on my way home (green meaning faster, red being slow).

Could have gone the extra 3.6km too which in hind sight I am kicking myself for not doing. Net time I'll to the 20km.

Ride safe,

JB