Ha ha, "one should be wary of simplistic explanations". I'm a bit weary of complicated explanations, just try a JP if you need to know the effect of "No Toe" fins. Pick one with a shape similar to whatever board you ride, and try it side by side in the surf. Your comparison won't be as exact as the comparisons on all the other boards I've tried with both toe and no toe set ups, but it will give you a better idea than listening to over complicated mathematical explanations written on a forum. It'll be faster, and yes it will turn, and turn very well....like a JP. It'll help turn a dog of a board into something fun. It will make boards more fun in anything but very good, juicy waves. I love them until I'm on waves bigger than head and a half, then I switch back to toe in.
So, if you're a Crumudgeon who would rather spend time trying to figure out why things can't be more fun, don't try this experiment, grumble on, and pitch whatever idea or company you're affiliated with, or wish you were affiliated with. Quote some more stuff about apples when we're talking about oranges.
Oh, if you are going to try these fins, make your own set, or what have you; try a small center fin...the Kelly Slater concept works well here. These fins are basically AM2's pivoted with no toe, so a 4.5" center seems to work well in a performance shape. I have a 4.37" center in my "fish" shaped sup. Large center fins add drag you don't need when you're trying to make a board go fast.
have fun out there, or do math....whatever.

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jarvisIan said..
Ha ha, "one should be wary of simplistic explanations". I'm a bit weary of complicated explanations

I think you misread me.
I was saying that you should be wary of baseless explanations... basically what you are saying.
And that's why I experimented a lot of fins myself, ignoring the "theory" around them. The Quobba for instance, but also the C-Drive, S-Wings, Winglets, Starfin, Spitfire, ...

I may very well try fins with less toe in the future, or the interesting "Fyns", or 3D fins, or ... but to be honest, I haven't been able to test any traditional fin anymore since switching to Quobba, I am afraid that the huge drag caused reverting to a classic foil will mask any other feeling. I should try to "un-toe" a set of side Quobba I guess. Testing a JP is not relevant, it would be too hard to separate what is due to the fins from what is due to the board shape.

Colas,
We all know you've been stumping for/are in cahoots with Quobba, that's just great, but they do not have the instant speed/grunt of a no toe set up. The science behind Quobba seems to be taken from an old paper written about the hydrodynamic differences between removable fins and glass on fins. In short, glass on fins had the least turbulence at their base because of that smooth, rounded transition from fin to board. The ,abrupt, 90 degree angle between fin and board made by all other situations creates turbulence where the fin meets the board. The problem with trying to recreate that is that Futures and FCS2 rotate into the board and that makes having that extra material /"flange"at the base of the fin an impossibility in any base except old school FCS.
Quobba seemingly just moved that up hoping for the best, but what that does is just move the turbulence further up the fin, that's why many people report that the fins feel directionless. That directionless feeling is all the turbulence/whitewater around the fin and it's inability to bite.
Quobba had a good idea, but they should have released it only as FCS, and just so it simply rounded to the board. I suppose that would be hard to market, "get that old school glass on feel", but it actually would be a better product.
"No Toe" fins aren't a new or original idea. It's part of what made the traditional "Fish" surfboard fast, and it's why JP's are fast, and aren't the best choice for huge waves. No big science here, but I guess I could make a set with flanges on the bottom.........

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jarvisIan said..
The science behind Quobba seems to be taken from an old paper

Now that's rich.

Having misread me, you badmouth me with a diatribe to the tune of distrusting theories and advocating real-life experience... and then you proceed to rant with all sorts of baseless extrapolations on the "theory" of Quobba fins without having - apparently - tried them !!!

On the opposite, I never said that no-toe-in fins would not work. Only that the "theory" was simplistic.
And you can read what I said about the "theory" advertised by Quobba in my post at: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Quobba-Fins-

The irony.

PS: I am a Gong ambassador, not a Quobba one. Gong even only sells products competing with Quobba.

What hope does the average sup surfer have? And I have to wonder how many shapers understand all these issues.

I am an engineer and I am not sure what to do with this info.

I have ordered the Riptide fins, and I own Quobba, C-drive, the clear fins from Sunova, and plenty of colorful fins. I go out in big and small conditions. I have a bunch of boards, but who knows about the cant and toe on those boards. And to top it off, my Placid has five FCS fin boxes, and the front fin box has two positions - with no tips from Sunova on where to place the fins for different surf conditions.

I would love to see a table of fin sizes, flexibility (stiff vs flexi), positions (fore-aft), configurations (thruster, quad, twin, single, etc.), versus conditions (big or small) and rider weight-to-volume ratio (if that is important).

Even a basic guide would help...

(But it would be nice if these discussions were a little more civil... It seems to me that everyone is trying to find the best solution.)

Colas,
You seem to attempt to hijack many various fin threads with the plugging of Quobba fins, that's fishy. As for baseless reviews of the fins, just read your whole Quobba post and the replies. If you're calling all those opinions baseless, that's not very inclusive now is it. We've, literally, had the Quobba fns here, and I agree with many of the others who reviewed them. Further some of the engineers that have created some of the most efficient designs to hit(and not hit) the market have studied them and if we don't want this thread to turn negative, lets leave it at that. The theory and opinion above are not baseless, and not meant to be demeaning, that's just what the design is, it's simple. Nothing wrong with trying out a new design, but the "math" is done on this. Not every design is for every situation, and there are a lot of varying designs out there some better than others.

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cantSUPenough said..
What hope does the average sup surfer have? And I have to wonder how many shapers understand all these issues.

I am an engineer and I am not sure what to do with this info.

I have ordered the Riptide fins, and I own Quobba, C-drive, the clear fins from Sunova, and plenty of colorful fins. I go out in big and small conditions. I have a bunch of boards, but who knows about the cant and toe on those boards. And to top it off, my Placid has five FCS fin boxes, and the front fin box has two positions - with no tips from Sunova on where to place the fins for different surf conditions.

I would love to see a table of fin sizes, flexibility (stiff vs flexi), positions (fore-aft), configurations (thruster, quad, twin, single, etc.), versus conditions (big or small) and rider weight-to-volume ratio (if that is important).

Even a basic guide would help...

(But it would be nice if these discussions were a little more civil... It seems to me that everyone is trying to find the best solution.)

I've got to agree with you on this one, that's what started my fin journey. There was a lot of confusion and blandness with sizing, placement, board type, wave shape, etc.. I was lucky to meet some inspiring finaholic's early on
I reckon it's like shoes, fins are a feel and a mood fit for both you and the wave of the day. Especially if you're chasing different waves in different places.
And Yeah, chill guys, maths got us ,traffic jams, cane toads and super council's ...not all good.

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cantSUPenough said..
What hope does the average sup surfer have? And I have to wonder how many shapers understand all these issues.

I am an engineer and I am not sure what to do with this info.

I have ordered the Riptide fins, and I own Quobba, C-drive, the clear fins from Sunova, and plenty of colorful fins. I go out in big and small conditions. I have a bunch of boards, but who knows about the cant and toe on those boards. And to top it off, my Placid has five FCS fin boxes, and the front fin box has two positions - with no tips from Sunova on where to place the fins for different surf conditions.

I would love to see a table of fin sizes, flexibility (stiff vs flexi), positions (fore-aft), configurations (thruster, quad, twin, single, etc.), versus conditions (big or small) and rider weight-to-volume ratio (if that is important).

Even a basic guide would help...

(But it would be nice if these discussions were a little more civil... It seems to me that everyone is trying to find the best solution.)

I've got to agree with you on this one, that's what started my fin journey. There was a lot of confusion and blandness with sizing, placement, board type, wave shape, etc.. I was lucky to meet some inspiring finaholic's early on
I reckon it's like shoes, fins are a feel and a mood fit for both you and the wave of the day. Especially if you're chasing different waves in different places.
And Yeah, chill guys, maths got us ,traffic jams, cane toads and super council's ...not all good.

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jarvisIan said..
You seem to attempt to hijack many various fin threads with the plugging of Quobba fins, that's fishy.

Well, it is simple. I have always been obsessed with fins, having tried a lot of them during my windsurfing and surfing days, build some, and I am an engineer.

The Quobba were the first ones which made such a difference in the water as to change my surfing. So it kinds of pain me now when I see people spending money on standard fins - that are often quite expensive - for very little gain compared to what they could have. And since most people are really conservative and a reluctant to try them, you have to insist a bit. I now keep a spare set and lend it to friends, all were instantly converted after the first try. It is hard for a lot of people in France to direct order fins from some small unkwnown company at the other end of the world, but when I see Australians wondering about fins, I have the urge to shout "Hey, you have got a hidden treasure just in your backyard!"

There is also a selfish reason: I want Quobba to succeed, at least long enough as to be able to produce other fin sets: I would love to be able to get Quobba in quad, twin, and single forms. I loved twin fins, but now I cannot see myself going back to twin fins but with a regular foil. And I would love to see the glide of a single fin with Quobba foil.

And no, the "math" (actually the physics) is not done. "there is actually no agreement on what generates the aerodynamic force known as lift" www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-one-can-explain-why-planes-stay-in-the-air/?error=cookies_not_supported&code=1dd4e5b3-bf5d-4e3c-8f47-815166901230
Or: Beware of the simplistic explanations.

Back to the no toe topic, I occasionally swap boards with a JP friend and after discussing various aspects I am going to retro fit some extra no-toe boxes into 2 of different style boards. Primarily for Twins and Split Twin Quad in smaller fun waves. Just for the fun of it.
Go Colas,
where would the growth be with out selfishness ?

" There is also a selfish reason: I want Quobba to succeed, at least long enough as to be able to produce other fin sets: I would love to be able to get Quobba in quad, twin, and single forms. I loved twin fins, but now I cannot see myself going back to twin fins but with a regular foil. And I would love to see the glide of a single fin with Quobba foil. "
So Choice, I'm meeting Taryn at the LSR, will be asking " where's the big Twins "

I have the same thing with Cdrive, I got my Twins. Still on Troy for the single fins.
Ps, I am a full price payment punter with Cdrive, so the full quid can go to R n D. Same with other brands I've commented on.

So can we support jarvislan in his endeavors to bring his fin bent to a happening thing. ? And... Where's the Twins ....

Give it a go BigHugg, that's how I started with this, little, fun project.(Pictures below) I was a US JP team rider, and the same distributor had Imagine boards. As such I ended up with a shed full of both. I liked the Imagine boards, but they were a bit slow on some of the lesser waves, and some of the, fast down the line, close out's we find on the Outer Banks. The JP's could go fast enough to beat the lip, the Imagine's had me crushed on a number of them.
I wasn't sure about the experiment, so I put a set of Pro Boxes in at the board's original toe in angle, but if you know Pro-Box at all, you realize that there is a plastic insert that holds the fin and allows you to pick different cant angles. I figured I could make my own inner insert at a "no toe" angle. I did this, crudely at first, and it worked. The Imagine took off and was much faster. It became my favorite board for a lot of conditions, and I could switch it back to "toe in" if I needed to.
Eventually I had my friend make me an aluminum, Futures base, mold (pictured), and I sourced some descent epoxy and started making the futures based versions for myself and friends. It's a little bit of work to do, but anyone can make a set of these. Think of it as turning the fins 1/4 outward. After all the boards and measuring, it seems that most manufacturers/shapers put the fin boxes in with 1/4 of toe in. There are a few boards I've come across with 3/8"s, and one or two with 1/2"!!!, but most are 1/4".
You can make a mold out of just about anything. Just measure a 3/4" base futures fin base and cob it up. The jig to hold the fin at the right angle will take a little more math and time, and grinding the existing futures based fins is a bit of a light touch and mess, but it's pretty simple. Coat your mold in petroleum jelly before pouring you epoxy into it. Make sure the freshly ground fin base is clean of debris and petroleum jelly.(I like to brush epoxy onto the fin before putting it in the mold to ensure it doesn't touch the sides and get jellied) Then, tape the fin to your jig, and let it sit for the right amount of time and at the right temp for your particular epoxy.
After you de-mold your fins you'll have to cut the notches in both ends, I use a Dremmel....again, light touch.
I've molded FCS, but with mixed results. The tabs are already pretty small, when you offset them it has to be done perfectly, or they'll break. I have a few long lasting sets, but more have failed. If I want FCS now, I just cut tabs in the RipTide Fins, they are much, much stronger than any of the homemade jobs I've done.
Making the homemade jobs is fun if you're into these kinds of hobby's, but it can be a wash if you put a lot of time and energy into it and then they break. I decided to produce the fins in Asia so that me and my friends would have them, it was getting to be a lot to make them for everyone. I made the smallest batch the manufacturer would allow, and priced them so that the project would pay for itself and allow another run of different fins. The amount I have invested is that of a moderately priced new board, so it's not a huge, or painful project. If I make more it will, likely, be what we want to play with, and unwisely, not what the market wants.(the market wants rear quads). But..who knows, it's not a big concern, just a hobby.
Below are some pics of fin molds, jigs, and board box experiments on the one Imagine. I've put boxes in a number of boards for use as twins, twin box locations are a bit different than thruster box positions.

Finaholic here. Have tried 3d dimples, C-drive - old and new, Quabba, piros no cant no toe, Riptide, Asher Pacey Huge Twins, Keels, Machado Twins.

My SMIK hip twins have led to many twins.

Quabba quads IMHO need a larger difference in size between the red and the green. No plate and screw center. Why?

In my longboards 2 + 1 dimples best.

C drives in my King's 8'2" primo.

No cant no toe def faster in small mush.

In my original slate five small piros worked a treat. Special order no plate center.

It's all fun. Try see! Speeds on airplanes in air with one wing very different than slow boards in water.

I observed the here the windwankers really liked the Quabs at their higher speeds.

I drive Scotty nuts with my choices. These are the BEST in my waves on my 8'4" HipTwin

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cbigsup said..
I have moved from New England to Georgia. Mostly surfing in Northern Florida.

My beloved 8'8" SMIK Short Mac needed a speed boost.

I have in my possession a unique set of no cant no toe FCS fins. Now installed. Will report..

Riptide no cant no toe twin tab transformed my SMIK Short Mac.

Much faster easier turn initiation and carvomatic..

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jarvisIan said..
Give it a go BigHugg, that's how I started with this, little, fun project.(Pictures below) I was a US JP team rider, and the same distributor had Imagine boards. As such I ended up with a shed full of both. I liked the Imagine boards, but they were a bit slow on some of the lesser waves, and some of the, fast down the line, close out's we find on the Outer Banks. The JP's could go fast enough to beat the lip, the Imagine's had me crushed on a number of them.
I wasn't sure about the experiment, so I put a set of Pro Boxes in at the board's original toe in angle, but if you know Pro-Box at all, you realize that there is a plastic insert that holds the fin and allows you to pick different cant angles. I figured I could make my own inner insert at a "no toe" angle. I did this, crudely at first, and it worked. The Imagine took off and was much faster. It became my favorite board for a lot of conditions, and I could switch it back to "toe in" if I needed to.
Eventually I had my friend make me an aluminum, Futures base, mold (pictured), and I sourced some descent epoxy and started making the futures based versions for myself and friends. It's a little bit of work to do, but anyone can make a set of these. Think of it as turning the fins 1/4 outward. After all the boards and measuring, it seems that most manufacturers/shapers put the fin boxes in with 1/4 of toe in. There are a few boards I've come across with 3/8"s, and one or two with 1/2"!!!, but most are 1/4".
You can make a mold out of just about anything. Just measure a 3/4" base futures fin base and cob it up. The jig to hold the fin at the right angle will take a little more math and time, and grinding the existing futures based fins is a bit of a light touch and mess, but it's pretty simple. Coat your mold in petroleum jelly before pouring you epoxy into it. Make sure the freshly ground fin base is clean of debris and petroleum jelly.(I like to brush epoxy onto the fin before putting it in the mold to ensure it doesn't touch the sides and get jellied) Then, tape the fin to your jig, and let it sit for the right amount of time and at the right temp for your particular epoxy.
After you de-mold your fins you'll have to cut the notches in both ends, I use a Dremmel....again, light touch.
I've molded FCS, but with mixed results. The tabs are already pretty small, when you offset them it has to be done perfectly, or they'll break. I have a few long lasting sets, but more have failed. If I want FCS now, I just cut tabs in the RipTide Fins, they are much, much stronger than any of the homemade jobs I've done.
Making the homemade jobs is fun if you're into these kinds of hobby's, but it can be a wash if you put a lot of time and energy into it and then they break. I decided to produce the fins in Asia so that me and my friends would have them, it was getting to be a lot to make them for everyone. I made the smallest batch the manufacturer would allow, and priced them so that the project would pay for itself and allow another run of different fins. The amount I have invested is that of a moderately priced new board, so it's not a huge, or painful project. If I make more it will, likely, be what we want to play with, and unwisely, not what the market wants.(the market wants rear quads). But..who knows, it's not a big concern, just a hobby.
Below are some pics of fin molds, jigs, and board box experiments on the one Imagine. I've put boxes in a number of boards for use as twins, twin box locations are a bit different than thruster box positions.

Thanks for your process. I'm looking at using the Smik boxes as I'm wanting to run Hanalei fins in them.

Same as you, Out to the rail, between the wide spaced original Quad placement.
Lots of Twin adjustment options ????
Start it next month when I am back.

BigHugg,
Twin fins seem to work best a little inside and behind the common thruster placement. I've observed what good shapers have done and tried to apply what I've seen when putting boxes in boards. Though twin fins ordinarily, have a slightly different box position, you can put them in the thruster boxes and they are still fast and really fun. Some boards work better than others depending on the thruster box positions.
I have a "no toe" MR Twin set that I am getting ready to produce. Hopefully I will have sets of them in stock by June. I've been using them in long board sup's and a couple of "fish" style sups, and it is really fun. They are, of course, faster than thruster, or quad "no toe" set ups. I, often, use them without a trailer in fat waves, or small waves. I really love them in the performance long boards, and I seem to always run them in those boards now.

Choice, post it up when you've got the Twins done .

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jarvisIan said..
Twin fins seem to work best a little inside and behind the common thruster placement.

Yes, I have tried to lobby my favorite shaper to provide 5 boxes board with an hybrid thruster + twin setup instead of a thruster + quad one, but to no avail up to now.
I tried once a prone surfboard Mc Tavish with this setup, and I made my shaper add then too to my small wave thruster.

I may end up having this extra twin-fin box set added to one of my boards, in which case, I would definitively make them no-toe.

Interesting layout, colas. Will consider it for next board . 7 fin
On My latest board I went a spilt Twin template . Haven't run splits yet.
Only had 3 surfs on it , Twins in front box while I find my feet.
Will shift to rear and see how it works.

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Bighugg said..
Interesting layout, colas. Will consider it for next board . 7 fin

Greg Griffin has this layout: s43.photobucket.com/user/griffinsurfboard/library/Thruster%20-%20Twin?sort=3&page=1

Greg Griffin seems very inventive on fins layouts, he has plenty of interesting ideas.
www.griffinsurfboards.com/

Remember the Twinzer?

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cbigsup said..
Remember the Twinzer?

On this forum at least, Kami is doing a good job ensuring we never forget it ;-)

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cbigsup said..

jarvisIan said..
Colas, I recently had that conversation with Keith of CNC fins in reference to some prototypes he and Engineer Mike had developed. I took one look at them and said; "surfers may not buy them because they look different". Keith agreed and there is talk of trying to do the best they can from a hydrodynamic standpoint while still making it appear like a familiar outline. I hope they release both, but it's risky.
As for "no toe" fins, it's really easy to test, I've been doing it for a couple of years. "No Toe" fins, in sup's is faster. It's obvious when you take a board that's a bit slow, and put "no toe" fins in that the board is simply faster, and performs better. I have tried this experiment on a lot of boards, and from several different manufacturers.
Here's a photo of an early prototype set of fins being re-cast, I'll bet Cbigsup recognizes the fins in the mold.

Jarvis, Did you make all 100 sets the old fashioned way in that gadget?

Gee, you have gone to some trouble. Is it worth your while to make some adjustable toe fins.... I guess on a cam bolt at front...ie you adjust in/out on a concentric, then tighten up the usual 4 grub screws, which are independent.
(not at your level, but as an old fart, quads give more leeway/quicker turns. polyester-carbon don't chip/break nearly as often as 100% carbon)

Bazzaf,
It's just a hobby after all, not really trouble if you enjoy it. However, to address your question of adjustable fins/boxes, it's already been done. Google :4 way Fin System, or maybe 4wfs fins. They sell adjustable fin boxes that you can have installed in your board, neat system too. The last time I looked they had a small variety of fins available for their system, so you are a bit limited as to what you can run, and you would have to put different boxes in your board, of course.
I didn't want to convert a quiver of boards that come and go to new boxes, hence the Riptide solution; you get to remove the toe without cutting into your board, cheap and easy, and the board remains stock.

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cbigsup said..
Remember the Twinzer?

Yes,Glen Minarme,unsure if correct spelling,Blue Hawaii,this is a True Twinzer IMO.early eighties,not to be confused with Twin and small trailer,to the rear of twins .

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jarvisIan said..
Bazzaf,
It's just a hobby after all, not really trouble if you enjoy it. However, to address your question of adjustable fins/boxes, it's already been done. Google :4 way Fin System, or maybe 4wfs fins. They sell adjustable fin boxes that you can have installed in your board, neat system too. The last time I looked they had a small variety of fins available for their system, so you are a bit limited as to what you can run, and you would have to put different boxes in your board, of course.
I didn't want to convert a quiver of boards that come and go to new boxes, hence the Riptide solution; you get to remove the toe without cutting into your board, cheap and easy, and the board remains stock.

The advantage of the 4way system is the fact that you don't need many different fin templates because of the multiple fins position allowed by this system when other companies sold fins with different templates.
IMO, the difference between templates is the fact that the centre of their surfaces and tips are more or less forward or backward position from the tail.
With 4wfs, as well as adjustable position from tail and Toe, Cant is adjustable too 0?, 5?, 9?
When Futures or FCS sold many fins, 4wfs sold only their clever boxes.
Jarvislan keeps tweaking around fins, good job you are doing.

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colas said..

cbigsup said..
Remember the Twinzer?

On this forum at least, Kami is doing a good job ensuring we never forget it ;-)

Thanks, Colas, I'm keeping on the side one set of the Larry Mabile fins that I would like to fit on one of my ShortSUP

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jarvisIan said..
BigHugg,
Twin fins seem to work best a little inside and behind the common thruster placement. I've observed what good shapers have done and tried to apply what I've seen when putting boxes in boards. Though twin fins ordinarily, have a slightly different box position, you can put them in the thruster boxes and they are still fast and really fun. Some boards work better than others depending on the thruster box positions.
I have a "no toe" MR Twin set that I am getting ready to produce. Hopefully I will have sets of them in stock by June. I've been using them in long board sup's and a couple of "fish" style sups, and it is really fun. They are, of course, faster than thruster, or quad "no toe" set ups. I, often, use them without a trailer in fat waves, or small waves. I really love them in the performance long boards, and I seem to always run them in those boards now.

Finally got some pics n measurements of boards I'd like to add NoToe Twins boxs.
What is your placement suggestions ?

You could try a "Duo" placement a la Neil Purchase Jr: a "no toe" twin/single setup.
I guess Neil's standard placement is geared for bigger waves with fins quite aft. But by moving the fins up you should get more looseness in smaller conditions.

I can see a duo system with two US boxes and two tool-less 6" fins (like FCSII for US boxes) a very fun setup: on could even change the fin position in the water, even going asymmetrical.

comparesurfboards.com/reviews/allrounders/neal-purchase-jnr-duo-dual-single-fin-surfboard-review

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jarvisIan said..
Colas,
You seem to attempt to hijack many various fin threads with the plugging of Quobba fins, that's fishy. As for baseless reviews of the fins, just read your whole Quobba post and the replies. If you're calling all those opinions baseless, that's not very inclusive now is it. We've, literally, had the Quobba fns here, and I agree with many of the others who reviewed them. Further some of the engineers that have created some of the most efficient designs to hit(and not hit) the market have studied them and if we don't want this thread to turn negative, lets leave it at that. The theory and opinion above are not baseless, and not meant to be demeaning, that's just what the design is, it's simple. Nothing wrong with trying out a new design, but the "math" is done on this. Not every design is for every situation, and there are a lot of varying designs out there some better than others.

1. Fact: Colas has absolutely no involvement with Quobba. Not to say the Quobba guys aren't thrilled with his promotion based on his enjoyment of their products, but it's certainly not based on any relationship whatsoever.

2. Who are these engineers who have studied Quobba? Or do they remain unnamed sources? Sounds like BS to me. Quobba (I'm not part of the company but do work with them on some things) have spent 10s of thousands of $ utilising some of the best engineers and mathematicians at UWA in hydrodynamics with the aid of a supercomputer to conduct independent CFD modelling to show how their fins work. They have countless prototypes. Now they have some of the top hydrodynamics engineers out of London going gaga over the design for use in other areas based on the numbers they have shown him. So your "math" on this is BS.

3. I was interested to consider and discuss the hydrodynamics around your no-toe fins based on my knowledge in this area since you did put it on a forum for discussion. I love looking at new innovations in this field. I do it for a living. Was even thinking about testing them for smaller, cleaner conditions. But sorry, after going down this path, you've lost my interest and any respect. Best of luck but I'm off.

Odd how such a genuinely helpful post can deteriorate into some sort of he said / she said heated disagreement. dont focus too much on words people use on online forums folks, i know i don;t always get the tone of my posts quite right, lets try focus on the content hey.

in this case, fins, and specifically, how to get slow SUPs moving faster and turning better.

For my part I've been testing the No Toe Riptides about 6 months and the quobbas only recently over 4 or 5 sessions in some long and wally but fairly gutless shoulder high waves, on the stun gun only.

so far the riptides are winning the race to the end of the wave but the quobbas did light up on one particularly fun slightly bowly one, in a rather unusual floatly feeling, fast-off-the -bottom-turn kinda way. It was a good feeling and i want more.

the verdict is too early too call for the quobbas but they do feel like good all round fins, I am looking forward to putting them into some steep, clean and fast walls to see if the extra juice lights them up beyond what youd expect from a regular thruster set. definitely not a bad purchase with the cost about the same as stock standard set of quality thrusters at the current covid panic prices. On the other hand, so far they havent blown me away or changed my fin preferences and Im not yet suggesting everyone to go out and buy a set.

The Riptides ive tested a lot more and have definitely achieved their purchase objective of making my stun gun move a bit quicker in small surf, with no particular difference in handling / turning grip etc. the boards still works just as good but does seem to move out of the mush a bit quicker.

hopefully at the end of my thorough and targeted scientific -evidence based fin testing regieme (i.e. going surfing) i'll be able report back to you all with an ideal fin combo thats perfect for me in the waves that i surf on the days that i surf, and probably compeltely useless to everyone else. :) The riptides have definitley improved the small wave performance (of my board, not my surfing haha), still to be confirmed is will the Quobbas beciome my go-to set for the good stuff.