I have been doing a fair bit of paddling with 2 different GPS's and the distance traveled between the 2 is quite a bit different, one is the Garmin the other a much more accurate GPS. Would love to know what most people use to time there paddling and if using a Garmin do you know it miss reads by quite a bit? in a 10km paddle it will be 300m difference which is alot!! Any other ideas to get accurate times out there?

How is the 5.0 thing in Sydney measured?

Jacko, it is possible that the issue with the Garmin may be the settings. I used to have a Forerunner 405 and my mate that I train with had a 910xt. On a 6km flat water run that we regularly do, he would always hit 3km and 6km about 50m before I did, when we were paddling side by side or only a few metres apart. We worked out that the 910 can be set to check your position every second, whereas the 405 checks at set intervals of a few seconds (not sure how many - 5-6?). So, the 405 was not taking into account the fact that you are not travelling in a perfect straight line and so may not recognise that you have not travelled in a straight line between 2 points when changing the side you paddle on, or when effected by currents, wind, etc.

I got the 910xt for christmas and now find that our measurements are pretty close to each other, allowing for how straight or otherwise we each paddle.

So, not sure which Garmin you are using but this may be an issue.

Garmins generally have a user-adjustable setting for sampling rate (not sure if 910XT has this...mine's gone walkabout so can't check. my other Garmin does). That is, how frequently it takes a reading and records it. If I recall correctly the default rate is 15sec (4 times a minute), you can set this as low as 5sec (12 times a minute) or out to 60sec. Higher sampling frequency improves accuracy and will give you richer data to analyse (if you're into that). Downside of higher sampling frequency is battery life is reduced a bit, you'll have to charge the device more often.

Hey Jacko I have the Garmin Forerunner XT and did the JPP 5.0 last sunday. The distance recorded was 5.11 km but as you can see I was a bit wibbly wobbly
connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/687230474/0?lang=en

I am not sure about the timing of when he checks, but I am pretty happy that its accurate. We also do a walk 7.0 km from our front door and its seems to be pretty accurate on that, and (generally) I can walk in a straight line

On an associated topic, is anyone aware of a programmable (and waterproof) stopwatch that allows you program the timer function for more complex interval sessions?

For example, I was doing a pyramid interval session yesterday morning than ran 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 with 1 minute rest between intervals. I had to set the countdown timer on my trusty Timex stopwatch at 1 minute beeps, but when I reach the longer intervals I have trouble keeping count of the number of times it goes off. It would be handy to program it so that I don't have to keep count.

ps Jacko, what's the other GPS you use?

My understanding is that none of these level GPS devices are regarded as accurate enough for the windsurfing world speed record settings. Apparently they demand measurements from 2 separate devices and they must be capable of triangulated measurement rather than single satellite connection.

My understanding with SUP 5.0 is they don't actually measure time by personal GPS devices. They set a course at 5km and then time everyone independently across a start/finish line. That way there are no discrepancies.

Would that make the I-Phone GPS more accurate?? My understanding is that they use satellite and triangulated through phone towers to increase accuracy.

Even better you can listen to music and use voice coaches that chime in per 500m to update your distance, pace and heart rate. After a while I knew what heart rate I could max out at before I crossed the aneorobic threshold.

When trying for a targeted time in a distance to me that's as good as the music stops me thinking of the pain and the coach kicks me up the bum to keep me moving towards my goal while trying to stay on top of my bodies capabilities.....

The other GPS i use is the stroke coach it it far more accurate but lacks any usefull fuction after you have stopped paddling.

Will check to see if i can some how change the settings in my garmin 910. As much as i love the garmins readings with it making me faster i would rather have it a bit more accurate even if it does mean my times are slower.

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paul.j said..
I have been doing a fair bit of paddling with 2 different GPS's and the distance traveled between the 2 is quite a bit different, one is the Garmin the other a much more accurate GPS. Would love to know what most people use to time there paddling and if using a Garmin do you know it miss reads by quite a bit? in a 10km paddle it will be 300m difference which is alot!! Any other ideas to get accurate times out there?

How is the 5.0 thing in Sydney measured?

Hi Jacko,
We originally had the course set using surveying gear from one of our local paddlers. Problem is the ski paddlers and others have a habit of moving the marks we have set.
Typically a dead accurate 5km course will have most people paddling between 50-100 m more depending on how crooked they track. 110m in some cases "Hitman"!

Are your gps's both wrist mounted? Would be best to place them directly on the board to cut out the errors from erratic hand movements.

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paul.j said..
The other GPS i use is the stroke coach it it far more accurate but lacks any usefull fuction after you have stopped paddling.

Will check to see if i can some how change the settings in my garmin 910. As much as i love the garmins readings with it making me faster i would rather have it a bit more accurate even if it does mean my times are slower.

Hey Jacko, what's the stroke coach like? I'm intrigued about the stroke rating option and how accurate it is. Stroke is an interesting parameter for training.

Use the tomtom and has some great functions
you can do a course set it and race against that time and pace
Map tracking is great
www.tomtom.com/en_au/sports/

Use the tomtom and has some great functions
you can do a course set it and race against that time and pace
Map tracking is great
www.tomtom.com/en_au/sports/

I have been using the Garmin 910XT which until recently has been the ducks nuts of personal GPS devices. I am super keen to get hold of the new version of it to do some testing. Who am I kidding I just like shiny stuff.

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WINDSURFnSNOW said...

paul.j said..
I have been doing a fair bit of paddling with 2 different GPS's and the distance traveled between the 2 is quite a bit different, one is the Garmin the other a much more accurate GPS. Would love to know what most people use to time there paddling and if using a Garmin do you know it miss reads by quite a bit? in a 10km paddle it will be 300m difference which is alot!! Any other ideas to get accurate times out there?

How is the 5.0 thing in Sydney measured?

Hi Jacko,
We originally had the course set using surveying gear from one of our local paddlers. Problem is the ski paddlers and others have a habit of moving the marks we have set.
Typically a dead accurate 5km course will have most people paddling between 50-100 m more depending on how crooked they track. 110m in some cases "Hitman"!

Are your gps's both wrist mounted? Would be best to place them directly on the board to cut out the errors from erratic hand movements.

Yeah i had them both mounted on my board and i could just see them going out of time as i was watching. From what i see the stroke coach is the most accurate as everyone here who has a Garmin seems to have the same problem.

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Goochi said...

paul.j said..
The other GPS i use is the stroke coach it it far more accurate but lacks any usefull fuction after you have stopped paddling.

Will check to see if i can some how change the settings in my garmin 910. As much as i love the garmins readings with it making me faster i would rather have it a bit more accurate even if it does mean my times are slower.

Hey Jacko, what's the stroke coach like? I'm intrigued about the stroke rating option and how accurate it is. Stroke is an interesting parameter for training.

Its good for on the water training but useless if you want to look at any data after your paddle. For flatwater i like it and its good for the training type we do.

From what i know the stroke coach works of 6 satellites and the garmin works of some like 2 or 3, i could be wrong about this though!!

Have look at the Suunto Ambit 2 watch, besides GPS function it also has a waterproof heart rate monitor.
iI have tested both the iPhone using MotionX GPS and the Suunto watch and I believe the Suunto was more accurate.
You can program functions for various sports training modules and it also counts swimming strokes, it may therefore be programable to count paddle strokes.
You can program items like VO2 Max, EPOC, heart rate, speed, distance etc etc, and you can
also perform splits and it has a stop watch function.
Training sessions can be viewed on google maps and if you run a mouse over your training trail, at that particular point it will give all statistics, speed heart rate etc.
The training trail changes colour depending on your speed, which helps to identify slow periods.
The watch is rechargeable and hooks up to a PC via a program called moveslink. Training program's can be viewed from and PC with your login details.
Have a look at the Suunto website, it's a very impressive watch that's suited to elite athletes, not sure why I purchased mine.

paul for various reason and returning watches that didn't work ive had/tried 4 gps watches.


I run a set course twice a week. every watch on every run gave a different km ran reading yet the course is exactly the same.


sometimes out by a couple of hundred metres.


ive found my mid level Magellan to be the most constant and its supposedly to be able to read from 6 satellites

Just curious, was the Suunto Ambit 2 one of the watches that you tried??

I also use the suunto ambit 2- great watch with a ton of great features. Now the ambit 3 has come out and it looks even better

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paul.j said..

Goochi said...

paul.j said..
The other GPS i use is the stroke coach it it far more accurate but lacks any usefull fuction after you have stopped paddling.

Will check to see if i can some how change the settings in my garmin 910. As much as i love the garmins readings with it making me faster i would rather have it a bit more accurate even if it does mean my times are slower.

Hey Jacko, what's the stroke coach like? I'm intrigued about the stroke rating option and how accurate it is. Stroke is an interesting parameter for training.

Its good for on the water training but useless if you want to look at any data after your paddle. For flatwater i like it and its good for the training type we do.

Cool - does the stroke rate work well? I read that it is based off board "lurching forward" on each stroke - so it detects each stroke to come up with rate and number of strokes - is this right?

I would personally think that it is sort of horses for courses. I would think that the level accuracy required by a professional athlete might be slightly different to a hack like me. If we are discussing a 300m difference over say 10k I would suggest for most of us that is an acceptable level of accuracy. If we are talking about 300m over say 2k then that would make the tool useless. The view of available satellites make a significant difference as well. I am unable to find how many satellites the garmin uses.

I suggest a cheap smart phone, waterproof case endomondo app. I use it on the 5.0 course and also for training. Three of us are using it in Sydney at the moment, it is interesting comparing performance of races on the website, as you can share info with friends. Seems to provide a regular distance paddling the same course!

Pros:

cheap
audio setting which can give you splits (useful to keep you honest in training)
interval setting based on time or distance
works with a heart rate monitor
keeps a good record of performance to show improvement and kms
great live text to voice encouragement function when one of your mates is out paddling
works well with headphones and a spotify type services, music stops and restarts when it provides a voice update

Human Cartoons reply mostly explains your problem. The Garmins at best sample once per second I believe whereas others can sample several times per second hugely improving accuracy. I've been using one which samples up to 4 times per second and it has been used to track Rugby players on the field down to I forget what, but very accurately.

The other issue which may affect the accuracy is natural obstacles such as buildings, bridges, hills and trees. Here the more accurate ones actually suffer the most as they get too much data and their software can only kick out so much to try and establish where you went. A basic Garmin is actually better in this case, they have less data to go through and their software tries to create as straight a line as possible meaning it often times is more in touch with reality as opposed to my more accurate one which has me paddling up in the round about next to our canals trying to understand the interrupted data points it's getting......

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BigLump said..
Just curious, was the Suunto Ambit 2 one of the watches that you tried??

no

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PeterP said..
Human Cartoons reply mostly explains your problem. The Garmins at best sample once per second I believe whereas others can sample several times per second hugely improving accuracy. I've been using one which samples up to 4 times per second and it has been used to track Rugby players on the field down to I forget what, but very accurately.

The other issue which may affect the accuracy is natural obstacles such as buildings, bridges, hills and trees. Here the more accurate ones actually suffer the most as they get too much data and their software can only kick out so much to try and establish where you went. A basic Garmin is actually better in this case, they have less data to go through and their software tries to create as straight a line as possible meaning it often times is more in touch with reality as opposed to my more accurate one which has me paddling up in the round about next to our canals trying to understand the interrupted data points it's getting......

yeah I ve noticed this with the Magellan. run under the highway bridge and it loses signal, but gets it back just as quick.


none of the others seemed to notice that ive 'disappeared'

You can download an app on your Iphone called Strava which a lot of runners and cyclist use. It captures all your sessions in a history and has a number of functions. Probably only suited for flat water paddling or if you can get your hand on a reliable waterproof casing for the phone for open water paddling.

Cheers, HV

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laceys lane said..
paul for various reason and returning watches that didn't work ive had/tried 4 gps watches.


I run a set course twice a week. every watch on every run gave a different km ran reading yet the course is exactly the same.


sometimes out by a couple of hundred metres.


ive found my mid level Magellan to be the most constant and its supposedly to be able to read from 6 satellites

I'm still using Iphone... Start at the same place and always have the final sprint in the same place as I hit the end time.... I think it's pretty accurate.

Like all things, if you are going to purchase a GPS that's accurate it won't be cheap or free. To develop software or components that achieve accuracy it costs money, so be prepared to cough up $$$.

Anyone tried or used the rip curl search GPS?

Jacko, you can borrow my Suunto Ambit2 to run alongside the Speed Coach for a session and see how it compares.

The Suunto has the option of recording GPS position at 1s, 5s and 60s intervals & my guess is at the 1s interval it would come out infront of the Garmin910XT (it's definitely more accurate than my old 310XT) but not sure how it would compare to the Speed Coach?