Hi,
I have been trying to master downwinding on my 2011 Hobie 14 elite, without achieving the sort of result expected.
First attempt was about 8km from Yaroomba to Mudjumba on the Sunshine Coast Qld. That was in around 20 knots + of northerly with a NE swell. I have had some instruction since then as well as learning from some videos, I have improved, however I am having to paddle all the way, not able to catch any runners, maybe one short runner in 3 kms. I have also tried a different board to see if that makes a difference, a Jerry Lopez 14 footer, no difference. I went out again on the hobie last weekend from Maroochydore to Mooloolaba, generally a SSW direction with a NNW wind at around 20 knots and NE swell. Still only caught one short runner.
My expectations of downwinding was like in this video, (see link).
These guys aren't paddling hard to catch the runners, in fact they aren't paddling much at all. What gives?
I watched a training video of Jeremy Riggs, he was in a boat training a guy on the downwind board, he kept having to say don't paddle so hard. It was a case of when he got in the trough just a couple of lazy strokes and he was on.
I tried all the stuff I had learned, tried just getting in the trough and paddling soft, hard just didn't matter, nothing worked to get me surfing the runners. I also tried paddling the direction of the swell, then the direction of the wind and chop.
In all 3 downwinders I have done have been in similar conditions, N - NNW wind around 20 knots, small 1 to 2 foot swell from the NE. Each time I found difficulty from the wind angling across the swell direction. When following the wind direction the swells would come at around a 45 degree angle hitting the tail of the board first, which pushed the tail to the right causing stability issues at times, certainly a loss of momentum.
Is there better conditions to aim for, and should that be the difference?
After giving it some thought I would expect that if the wind and swell were going exactly the same direction that would be the best? Is that the case or not?
What are the ideal conditions? Big swell, small swell, how much wind, what direction swell and wind?
Someone told me you aren't meant to catch the swells, (ground swells), but the chop, (wind swells). Is that correct?
So you are better able to judge what may be going on it may help if I give you my experience history. I am 50 years old and have surfed for 40 years, supped for about 3, and plenty of offshore kayak and sailing experience.
Help much needed and appreciated.
Kind regards,
Ken.

Try a Naish Glide..

It can be very frustrating but keep trying and things will start to click.

I think your Hobie is a great board but may be holding you back in the DWing department ..

DJ

i think you should watch dj's videos when he has the camera behind him. watch carefully.


he's looking for the bump/trough in front. when he's see that and feels the back of the board lift thats when he puts in the strokes.timing is the key

you only have to get on it and stay there.


don't go madly charging down the swell unless you can get over that bump in front.

hold it in the spot where the board went under its own power.

don't look behind like you do surfing- watch the troughs and bumps in front and in your peripheral vision


obviously there is a lot more too it but it comes with time in the ocean.

small swell high wind is ideal

big ocean swells, high wind is a rush but is usually multi directional which is tricky.


you will get it, but try to find someone who knows how too,and give some on water tips- will save time.

cheers

ps would be happy to do a run with you if your on the loldie at any stage

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laceys lane said..



don't go madly charging down the swell unless you can get over that bump in front...don't look behind like you do surfing- watch the troughs and bumps in front and in your peripheral vision

Still very much a beginner myself with a looooong way to go but this is good advice...when I started thinking about the runner in front (or the trough just behind it) rather than trying to stay on/hook into the one behind me it started to come together...but yeah, still a long way to go with it

I'll add to Dj's splendid advice - sounds like your conditions are a little tricky - definitely easier when wind and swell come from the same direction, even easier if that swell is low-fetch windswell and not ocean rollers. The most common errors I see is paddling at the wrong time, poor paddling technique and standing too far back.

Your board has a sweet spot where it will pick up runners more willingly, on the old Glide this is a fraction ahead of handle on the new Glide it is just behind the handle - try and ask others that ride same board.

Don't be fooled by how easy JR and the gang make it look - when they paddle they plant their blade and get substantial purchase on each paddle stroke.
Lots of videos around on how to improve paddle stroke - and then find protected flatwater to practice it - don't try and learn paddlestrokes on a downwinder.

And then it's the timing, to sum it up - don't paddle uphill, only paddle when your nose is pointing down, look for a "hole"/dip in front of your board to paddle into.

Applying all of above should get you into runs in no time - and don't despair my first downwinders were also long paddles with wind in the back....

Thanks for the great advice and encouragement guys!

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PeterP said..

I'll add to Dj's splendid advice - sounds like your conditions are a little tricky - definitely easier when wind and swell come from the same direction, even easier if that swell is low-fetch windswell and not ocean rollers. The most common errors I see is paddling at the wrong time, poor paddling technique and standing too far back.

Your board has a sweet spot where it will pick up runners more willingly, on the old Glide this is a fraction ahead of handle on the new Glide it is just behind the handle - try and ask others that ride same board.

Don't be fooled by how easy JR and the gang make it look - when they paddle they plant their blade and get substantial purchase on each paddle stroke.
Lots of videos around on how to improve paddle stroke - and then find protected flatwater to practice it - don't try and learn paddlestrokes on a downwinder.

And then it's the timing, to sum it up - don't paddle uphill, only paddle when your nose is pointing down, look for a "hole"/dip in front of your board to paddle into.

Applying all of above should get you into runs in no time - and don't despair my first downwinders were also long paddles with wind in the back....

Thanks Peter, I have been practicing in the local river mouth, catching runners. Although there is a difference these being swells, I catch them when they are only bumps, surf them for maybe 50m before they even start to break then continue for another 50 - 80m.
So I thought that it would be the same downwinding offshore, except I am looking for the trough in front of me instead of a swell behind me?
I believe my paddle stroke is ok.
Ken.

KennyK - great topic.

I'm in a similar situation. I've probably done 8 or so proper (>15 knot) downwinders now in Ballina northern NSW and am just starting to get the hang of it ('starting' being the operative word). Ocean swell is probably the most frustrating thing for me, then temptation as a long time surfer is to look over the shoulder, line up a big crest coming towards you, only to have it slip under you at about twice the speed your travelling. Then the effect that a NE swell will have on a N wind chop makes things pretty frustrating, let alone swell bouncing of headlands, etc.

A couple of things that are helping me:
- Before I go out - if I can't see lots of whitecaps then I don't expect epic rides.
- Get out to sea a bit. If I'm in close, the swells peak up on the shallower reefy sections (say 5m depth) and I get into the whole surfer mindset again. If I get out say 1km out things get a little bit more organised and more wind dominated.
- It's possible to catch runners without paddling at all. I'm trying to get into the habit of waiting for some good wind gusts and concentrate on keeping weight forward and just let the wind push me into little short runners, then steping back so the nose doesn't bury in to the wave in front.

My key issue is maintaining momentum and it's all related to balance. I'm finding I often get into a reasonable runner, but then need to brace with the paddle to stop falling in - this is just enough to knock the momentum down so that I can't link into the next runner.

I'll be keen to see what other replies and advice you get!

FB's notion on the windstrength is a good one - the windier it is, the easier it gets. Light wind dwds you can still catch bumps but it's way more work and technical.

And yes, you never, ever, look behind you, it's all about whats happening in front of your board.

Catching small swells in a surfbreak teaches you good control of the craft but I find it does very little for teaching you how to catch runs on a dwd run - it's just very different.

If you look at DJ's vids with rearmounted camera you'll see he is always putting his nose into a dip - behind the dip is a mound and that is what you are riding.

I'm always looking for the biggest wave.. Letting it go.. and getting in behind it.

Hey Ken.. Just wondering.. How heavy are you.

DJ

I don't know about you Kenny, but another problem I get is that there's no real protected local spots to launch from on a NE wind, so it's a ocean beach launch with say 500m of paddling perpendicular to the wind to get out enough to clear the next headland. One thing I've noticed is that the north winds go through gust cycles, maybe 15mins hard, then a bit of lull etc. It makes so much difference to just sit on the beach and wait for a gap to do that initial paddle out.

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DavidJohn said..

I'm always looking for the biggest wave.. Letting it go.. and getting in behind it.

Hey Ken.. Just wondering.. How heavy are you.

DJ

yeah, its amazing the push behind the big 'wave'. kenny after a while you'll be able to read which bumps are going to give you more bang for your buck.

another thing is i will just about do anything to keep the nose for my board down hill. that might mean turning/cutting/angling or a stroke on each swell or both.

so while i might not be paddling constantly or not paddling at all- i'm still busy.


if the nose of your board keeps coming up hill your not going to go anywhere fast- this is important to keep the board flowing.

body position on the board and movement play apart in this

i personally have not problem riding bumps on the back of my board as i believe boards plane better there. you just have to know when and be able to get forward again

If you paddle hard and almost pick up a bump but not quite, use the momentum to hopefully help you get onto the next one. Try to put the nose of you board into the back of the bump in front of you. It is a different feeling to riding a wave. Sometimes feels more like being pulled along rather than pushed along by a wave.

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Flounder said..

If you paddle hard and almost pick up a bump but not quite, use the momentum to hopefully help you get onto the next one. Try to put the nose of you board into the back of the bump in front of you. It is a different feeling to riding a wave. Sometimes feels more like being pulled along rather than pushed along by a wave.

bloody 17'4 bullet owners. its a wonder your not across two bumps sometimes

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DavidJohn said..

I'm always looking for the biggest wave.. Letting it go.. and getting in behind it.

Hey Ken.. Just wondering.. How heavy are you.

DJ

88kg

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foamballer said..

KennyK - great topic.

I'm in a similar situation. I've probably done 8 or so proper (>15 knot) downwinders now in Ballina northern NSW and am just starting to get the hang of it ('starting' being the operative word). Ocean swell is probably the most frustrating thing for me, then temptation as a long time surfer is to look over the shoulder, line up a big crest coming towards you, only to have it slip under you at about twice the speed your travelling. Then the effect that a NE swell will have on a N wind chop makes things pretty frustrating, let alone swell bouncing of headlands, etc.

A couple of things that are helping me:
- Before I go out - if I can't see lots of whitecaps then I don't expect epic rides.
- Get out to sea a bit. If I'm in close, the swells peak up on the shallower reefy sections (say 5m depth) and I get into the whole surfer mindset again. If I get out say 1km out things get a little bit more organised and more wind dominated.
- It's possible to catch runners without paddling at all. I'm trying to get into the habit of waiting for some good wind gusts and concentrate on keeping weight forward and just let the wind push me into little short runners, then steping back so the nose doesn't bury in to the wave in front.

My key issue is maintaining momentum and it's all related to balance. I'm finding I often get into a reasonable runner, but then need to brace with the paddle to stop falling in - this is just enough to knock the momentum down so that I can't link into the next runner.

I'll be keen to see what other replies and advice you get!

Thanks Foamy, I am experiencing much of the same, especially,"temptation as a long time surfer is to look over the shoulder, line up a big crest coming towards you, only to have it slip under you at about twice the speed your travelling. Then the effect that a NE swell will have on a N wind chop makes things pretty frustrating, let alone swell bouncing of headlands, etc."
Cheers,
Ken.

Sounds like I'm getting some really good advice. Certainly some stuff I will try to use going forward.
Thanks heaps guys!
Ken.

I struggled in a Northerly the first few runs I had. Around here it seems the Northerly makes for steep bumps but they seem harder to link up. Maybe because the bumps from the wind will travel in a North- South direction but the swell will rarely be doing the same. I found it easier to learn in a Southerly. The bumps seem to be more groomed somehow and you don't have to chase them as much.
Somewhere like Mooloolaba -North in a 15 -20 SSE wind would be perfect. Or even just Alex headland to Maroochy Rivermouth. The forecast for Friday/Saturday this week looks good for paddle up there.

I've no expert at all but my technique is too wait till swell goes past then paddle hard the next swell will pick me up when I drop off that paddle hard again and repeat so far worked for me but once again no expert at all.

Maybe stilly question but do u surf on ur sup? Maybe a good form of training for u and good fun

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Tommy123 said..

I've no expert at all but my technique is too wait till swell goes past then paddle hard the next swell will pick me up when I drop off that paddle hard again and repeat so far worked for me but once again no expert at all.

Maybe stilly question but do u surf on ur sup? Maybe a good form of training for u and good fun

I do a bit of surfing on the 14 footer.
Mostly on my 9'6" JP surf pro though.
I agree both are fun but of late we have had a run of 1 to 2 foot surf so I have been using the 14 a bit.

G’day KennyK Downwind Paddling is a very unique sport I love it. I’ve Been doing it now since May 2003 (11 years) Jamie Mitchell introduced me to the sport one day when he was paddling past me while I was surfing. I got in his face I thought this would be fun to do and the fitness side of things would be beneficial when the surf gets blown out. So Jamie introduced me to Adrian Burse and shaped me an 18ft Prone Paddleboard stoked. In 2007 I went to Maui to paddle in the Hennessey’s Paddleboard Championship and saw a 16ft Open Ocean Downwind Stand Up Board for the first time and defected from Prone paddle-boarding stoked.

KennyK it’s going to take you about 2 years to work it all out and become proficient at Downwind Paddling, it’s not a sport you can learn over night theres a lot to it than you think. Remember when you first started surfing it takes 10 years to become any good at it. It’s just time in the ocean.

3 simple steps
1. Always look straight ahead you’ve got 180 degrees peripheral vision. Never look over your shoulder focus on the nose of your SUP and look no further than 15 feet ahead 4 metres a head.
2. When you feel the tail of your SUP lift you’ll be on a swell or in the trough or on a small bump. If the nose of the SUP is sticking in the air means the swell you just mist is under your SUP so try not to paddle (e.g. paddling up hill)
3. If you can get the nose of your SUP into the swell in-front of you the swell will suck your SUP along with it like a vacuum cleaner

You will find a good SSE wind and Swell is much more fun and easier to Downwind Paddle especially if you live on the East Coast of Australia. The NE winds and Swells are not as good for Downwind SUP I recon s##t, I'll only paddle a paddleboard when it's NE just for some different muscle fitness.

Small ocean swells are good but big ocean ground swells are much more fun when the wind is 25+ knots you’ll surf for a few hundreds of metres. The longest swell I’ve ever Downwinded went for like a minute “Yes Please Mr Wizard”

I have 3 Downwind SUP’s KennyK
f18 for flat water or winds 15 knots or less
f16 for Open Ocean goes unreal in 25+ knot winds
Bullet that fits in-between the f18 & f16


Left to Right Bullet, f18, f16



My 18 foot Prone Paddleboard



How good is the spray job on the Paddleboard right where your chest goes

Kenny K,
I am not an authority by a long shot, but I can comment on the runs you mention as I have done them,
I live at Yaroomba and regularly paddle south from there. I stay in close as I usually paddle alone.
One issue that I think is occurring is that in a North Easter and you are going south from Yaroomba, both the wind and swell are at about a 45 degree angle to you. If you want better runs and more push from the wind you may need to follow FB's advice and get further out to sea. There are guys that do these runs you mention but they head out over 1km to get at the same angle as the wind and waves. If you do this you are able to get the wind and swell behind you and then take a nearly straight run into you destination.
The runs north in a South Easter from Mooloolaba to Mudjimba or Maroochy River mouth are better as the wind is more behind you and parallel with the beach and your direction.
As the other guys say above, I wait for the nose of my board to dip before putting in a few hard strokes to pick up the swell.

Good topic thanks for posting. It is great to get advice from guys like Lacey and DJ as they have a lot of experience.
Enjoy.
ET.

That's really interesting about northerlies versus southerlies on the East Coast. I've only done northerlies, mainly due there using being a much bigger groundswell to deal with during a southerly blow (and the fact it seems to be blowing a northerly just about every day lately). Is there some theory behind southerlies being better?

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foamballer said..

That's really interesting about northerlies versus southerlies on the East Coast. I've only done northerlies, mainly due there using being a much bigger groundswell to deal with during a southerly blow (and the fact it seems to be blowing a northerly just about every day lately). Is there some theory behind southerlies being better?

southerlies- get in early before it gets to big. most of the problem is dealing with getting in and out of the surf zone

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Downwinder said..

G???day KennyK Downwind Paddling is a very unique sport I love it. I???ve Been doing it now since May 2003 (11 years) Jamie Mitchell introduced me to the sport one day when he was paddling past me while I was surfing. I got in his face I thought this would be fun to do and the fitness side of things would be beneficial when the surf gets blown out. So Jamie introduced me to Adrian Burse and shaped me an 18ft Prone Paddleboard stoked. In 2007 I went to Maui to paddle in the Hennessey???s Paddleboard Championship and saw a 16ft Open Ocean Downwind Stand Up Board for the first time and defected from Prone paddle-boarding stoked.

KennyK it???s going to take you about 2 years to work it all out and become proficient at Downwind Paddling, it???s not a sport you can learn over night theres a lot to it than you think. Remember when you first started surfing it takes 10 years to become any good at it. It???s just time in the ocean.

3 simple steps
1. Always look straight ahead you???ve got 180 degrees peripheral vision. Never look over your shoulder focus on the nose of your SUP and look no further than 15 feet ahead 4 metres a head.
2. When you feel the tail of your SUP lift you???ll be on a swell or in the trough or on a small bump. If the nose of the SUP is sticking in the air means the swell you just mist is under your SUP so try not to paddle (e.g. paddling up hill)
3. If you can get the nose of your SUP into the swell in-front of you the swell will suck your SUP along with it like a vacuum cleaner

You will find a good SSE wind and Swell is much more fun and easier to Downwind Paddle especially if you live on the East Coast of Australia. The NE winds and Swells are not as good for Downwind SUP I recon s##t, I'll only paddle a paddleboard when it's NE just for some different muscle fitness.

Small ocean swells are good but big ocean ground swells are much more fun when the wind is 25+ knots you???ll surf for a few hundreds of metres. The longest swell I???ve ever Downwinded went for like a minute ???Yes Please Mr Wizard???

I have 3 Downwind SUP???s KennyK
f18 for flat water or winds 15 knots or less
f16 for Open Ocean goes unreal in 25+ knot winds
Bullet that fits in-between the f18 & f16


Left to Right Bullet, f18, f16



My 18 foot Prone Paddleboard



How good is the spray job on the Paddleboard right where your chest goes

Wow their BIG boards man!
I guess that makes it easier, does it?
I see they have a rudder system, is it easy to operate?
Thanks,
Ken.

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KennyK said..
Wow their BIG boards man!
I guess that makes it easier, does it?
I see they have a rudder system, is it easy to operate?
Thanks,
Ken.

G'day KennyK any Downwind SUP and Prone Paddleboard over 16 feet needs a rudder system. The rudder helps to make it easy to change direction very fast to catch runners and is easy to operate. I'm a big fan of the Unlimited boards I find them way more fun and enjoyable to paddle.

If you ever want to experience the ultimate Downwind paddle on the planet you'll need to come to Maui in July and paddle Maliko it will blow ya mind. It's just like a surfer going to Indonesia to surf perfect waves, don't deprive yourself of both these experiences.

"Yes Please Mr Wizard"

So much great advice on this topic for all us new at DWing from some of the best around at it DJ LL and DW cheers guys this has helped me massively also!

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AndyR said..

So much great advice on this topic for all us new at DWing from some of the best around at it DJ LL and DW cheers guys this has helped me massively also!

G'day AndyR next time the wind is SSE with a South swell and you wana go for a Downwind Paddle give me a call I do a quick run from Bilinga SLSC to Nth Burleigh SLSC it's 11km takes 50 minutes and it's very easy to get out through the surf at Bilinga.
If you're really keen AndyR we can do a Brunswick Heads to Hastings Point 20km it's the best run on the East Coast of Australia that I've ever experienced (Mini Maliko) just the way the coastline is situated for those SSE winds and South swells it's epic you can do the 20km in 100 minutes or less easy.

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AndyR said..

So much great advice on this topic for all us new at DWing from some of the best around at it DJ LL and DW cheers guys this has helped me massively also!

Thanks DW,

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Downwinder said..

KennyK said..
Wow their BIG boards man!
I guess that makes it easier, does it?
I see they have a rudder system, is it easy to operate?
Thanks,
Ken.

G'day KennyK any Downwind SUP and Prone Paddleboard over 16 feet needs a rudder system. The rudder helps to make it easy to change direction very fast to catch runners and is easy to operate. I'm a big fan of the Unlimited boards I find them way more fun and enjoyable to paddle.

If you ever want to experience the ultimate Downwind paddle on the planet you'll need to come to Maui in July and paddle Maliko it will blow ya mind. It's just like a surfer going to Indonesia to surf perfect waves, don't deprive yourself of both these experiences.

"Yes Please Mr Wizard"

Thanks DW, On your F18, if you are out in 15 knots or less are you still able to catch plenty of runners?
If so, If you had either of the others in the same conditions, would they not get many or any runners?
What happens if you are turning with the rudder and suddenly have to step back to the tail, with out time to straighten the rudder? Is it self centering when released?
Cheers,
Ken.

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Downwinder said..

KennyK said..
Wow their BIG boards man!
I guess that makes it easier, does it?
I see they have a rudder system, is it easy to operate?
Thanks,
Ken.

G'day KennyK any Downwind SUP and Prone Paddleboard over 16 feet needs a rudder system. The rudder helps to make it easy to change direction very fast to catch runners and is easy to operate. I'm a big fan of the Unlimited boards I find them way more fun and enjoyable to paddle.

If you ever want to experience the ultimate Downwind paddle on the planet you'll need to come to Maui in July and paddle Maliko it will blow ya mind. It's just like a surfer going to Indonesia to surf perfect waves, don't deprive yourself of both these experiences.

"Yes Please Mr Wizard"

Hey DW, just checked out the SIC web site, they only show one F-series board, the F-16.
If comparing the F-16 and Bullet 17, which would you recommend for me and why? From their web site I read that the bullet is faster and maybe more maneuverable but less stable and forgiving than the F-16. Do they not make an F-18 any more or is it a custom?
Cheers,
Ken.
I could be interested in a good second handy if any one has one?

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That's really interesting about northerlies versus southerlies on the East Coast. I've only done northerlies, mainly due there using being a much bigger groundswell to deal with during a southerly blow (and the fact it seems to be blowing a northerly just about every day lately). Is there some theory behind southerlies being better?

Swells in Australia come mainly from the south due to weather patterns like LOWs in the Tasman, or HIGHs in the bite (for the east coast), this is why the East coast is known for it's right point breaks and West coast for it's Lefts. The swell is generated by strong winds blowing over ocean and the swell size is dependent on many factors but strength of wind and time it has blown across the ocean are major factors.

When SE winds blow on the East coast they usually blow for 4+ days and often 24hrs a day, this generates swell and the swell can travel a long way from the South making it clean and consistent (ground swell) and can have a very southerly slant to it (more perpendicular to the coast). NE winds on the other hand normally blow more locally and only for closer to 12hrs from lunch time, and therefore seldom develop any ground swell (a tropical low near Fiji will do it). Any NE swell that tries to develop is also almost always fighting against an underlying SE swell, this is why NE swell is almost always small, short, sharp, and often disorganised on the east coast of Australia.

Thanks to all above for their input, it has re-enforced what I am slowly picking up with regards to down-winding. I have spent a lot of time in the ocean and thought down-winding would have come more naturally to me than it has, but can see that it takes time and effort - same as anything that is worthwhile I guess!
Regards KJ