Does too much width on boards equal drag ,I relies on 14's narrow means fast ,but does this work with surfing as well ?

what are your thoughts

IMO:
Over a certain point I think it would... but outline curve has a greater effect. A more parallel outline aids speed
The right rocker helps.

eg; Smik Hipster Twin. Quite a curvy wide shape, wide nose, flat-ish rocker, hip in the outline, twin fins. It is a really fast board...

As we all know everything is a compromise. Getting the right balance of compromises is the hard part which can make a good board great.

IMO,absolutely,same as to many fins,that's what keeps shaper/designers on their toes!Hoppo covered most of it ,add concave in the bottom shape for lift and less resistance,as another factor.bottom line is we all attempt to go as narrow as comfortable ,ah the joys of looking for the perfect match

width adds drag, but:
width also increases the lift force while planing. (this lift does not comes from nowhere, thus it adds drag)

So, if a board is just around the lower range of planing speeds (i.e. surfing in slow waves), more width can make the difference between slogging in displacement mode (longboard glide) and zipping in planing mode (fish accelerations).

In a nutshell, narrow boards are generally faster, except when you are feeling the waves are so slow that you find your board tends to bog down. Then either using wider boards (for lifting it more out of the water) and/or shorter ones (for lowering the range of their planing speeds) can make you surf faster. This is why short small wave boards are generally wider.

Being a rather large old surfer, narrow boards have never been of much use to me....
BUT in all my real life trials, if a board is well shaped, I have always been able to generate enough speed to maximize wave potential.

For the waves most SUPsters surf, the proper release off the tail will provide amazing speed on a wider board which provides critical "lift" in weaker waves (as colas pointed out)

As to Tardy's needs (big powerful waves)
I have surfed many well OH waves in my travels, all on boards over 32" wide and never found any lack of speed.
A wider board with rail curve allows me to pump for speed and work the wave to generate all the speed I need.

The biggest wave I have surfed in the past 40 years, was 3x OH in Rhode Island on a maxed out Hurricane swell.
I was riding a 9'6 x 33.5" wide board.... and I was the only SUP out.
The surfers were snickering at the 71 year old man on the huge SUP.

I paddled way past them and further out, to my big wave lineup spot that I have been using since the 70's
Moments later, the biggest set of the day came right to me.
It was frigging huge!!!
I was waaay back and taking off really late
As I paddled for it I was thinking "What the Hell are you doing?!!!"

The board performed perfectly and I got the biggest, fastest wave of my SUP life.
Carving big speed turns up and down the face for over 400 yards.... backside!

On the paddle back out the surfers were all hooting me... one said "Nice ride Hoss!"
Then it was game on, I charged everything that day and had a blast.... on a 33.5" wide board

I don't have the physics in hand... but my real life experience has proved to me that width is not the performance killer that all the skinny kids say it is

To me, it's all in the total shape... not the width.

Nice feed in Tardy...,the tease continues.

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justaddwater said..
Nice feed in Tardy...,the tease continues.

Cheers guys I didn't think it made much difference I am sticking with 31 wide boards , I know fins make a huge difference to speed and board looseness , Creek great story and it proves it and good info as usual from fellow surfers , my flow is a really fast board my placid wasn't but is was the rocker I'm sure ,

CheersTardy, hope you are healing well,we are all enjoying the ghostly journey,however personally,I don't think I will fit in the chosen numbers.I also had the same result from the placid,incredibly stable but could not surf it .

Nice lure Tardy, great cast
Love your story Rick, but from what I've seen you could make surfing a pallet look great! You're a much better surfer than I.
I definitely agree with the overall shape comment though, spot on. It's definitely got a lot to do with the waves you normally surf too.
I have fallen in love with the longboard SUP shape, so will only comment on that, although I do have a 31" wide flow in the quiver which rips but gets a little dusty nowadays.
I have a 10' x 28" and a 9' x 30 revolution. My preference for the smaller days is the 10', the glide is insane. The 9' is better for bigger days, but you need to be spot on where you put yourself on the wave due to the nose width. The fine parallel rails and pin tail on these are key to the speed and turn off the tail, and the relatively flat bottom assists in the down the line speed.
I spend a lot of time up front trimming these 2, I just can't help it. So much fun.
Currently working on a "best of both worlds" (for me) 9'4" x 28.5" revo. Reckon it's gonna be f'n awesome!
Footnote: I'm 6'2" and hover around the 100kg mark, and my boards are generally around 125-130L in volume.

Nice hook up to Brenno fast tuna ,its seems longboard are your thing dude ,but yes the glide is totally awesome on longer boards I often take my 9'11 insane out at 29 1/2 ,it has factors I like but then the nose swing for me it just gets in the way for lip bashing surfing ,but it is my fastest board and awesome on huge waves ,so I'm going the opposite ,next GR board 8'7 x 31 x 133 ,I have just gained all this relaxed muscle lately ,so the new stick has some beef ,getting made as we speak ,in saying that the 12 search @ 30 wide is a little wave crazy fun board to ride ,you need to be able to walk up and down ,so took some getting use not being a longboard background I usually hang at da rear kick pad ,
9,4 sound good for you ,can't wait to see your plan .heres mine ,its gonna be a machine. from the SUNOVA factory ,going my block emblem again ,(please note mine ) no copying, ha ,ha , Sunova can do anything for you ,I really like Creeks Ghost look with the black in the grain looks so nice ,

Tardy,

What are you doing for a pad???

Looks good Tardy. I was just checking out the SPX and the various sizes. I'd be interested to hear how it compares to the 8'8 SP25.

Looks rad Tardy! That design works so well on this one. Simple and well balanced.

IMO The SPX / SP25 really looks like the right board for everyday ripping. Will be interesting to see how the Ghost stacks up against it.

The SPX at this stage is looking like my next HP board too!

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bomberdave said..
Tardy,

What are you doing for a pad???

hey Dave ,I already have brought my rear pad ,Ocean and earth ,thinking of getting 2 m x 700 of black off surf & sail WA ,
any other ideas ?

hey steve being shorter maybe a little more playful and 133 instead of 138 ,and slightly narrower @ 31 ,these board will not be on the shelf they need to be ordered ,

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Hoppo3228 said..
Looks rad Tardy! That design works so well on this one. Simple and well balanced.

IMO The SPX / SP25 really looks like the right board for everyday ripping. Will be interesting to see how the Ghost stacks up against it.

The SPX at this stage is looking like my next HP board too!

I'm loving the shape Hoppo

Hey mate,

Take a look at the OAM sup deckpad here : www.oamsurf.com.au/products/on-a-mission-blur-stand-up-paddle-board-grip-black

Not cheap, but hey, you're this deep into it already ;)

They make the pads for Infinity Sups...

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Tardy said..
hey Dave ,I already have brought my rear pad ,Ocean and earth ,thinking of getting 2 m x 700 of black off surf & sail WA ,
any other ideas ?

It depends if you want comfort (a 5mm pad), or lightness and a direct feel for the board (2mm / 2.5mm pads).

For the light & direct option, you can check my experiments at
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/My-XMas--self-present--two-Gong-customs?page=1

... but it is quite expensive.

In my experience, a thin pad gives a welcomed extra control in hollow waves. But it may not be worth the trouble (nor the money) otherwise (especially in chop).

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colas said..

Tardy said..
hey Dave ,I already have brought my rear pad ,Ocean and earth ,thinking of getting 2 m x 700 of black off surf & sail WA ,
any other ideas ?

It depends if you want comfort (a 5mm pad), or lightness and a direct feel for the board (2mm / 2.5mm pads).

For the light & direct option, you can check my experiments at
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/My-XMas--self-present--two-Gong-customs?page=1

... but it is quite expensive.

In my experience, a thin pad gives a welcomed extra control in hollow waves. But it may not be worth the trouble (nor the money) otherwise (especially in chop).

Thanks Colas never thought of that ,I'm guessing thats why a lot of surfboard riders still use wax ,also keeps the weight down .

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Tardy said..

bomberdave said..
Tardy,

What are you doing for a pad???

hey Dave ,I already have brought my rear pad ,Ocean and earth ,thinking of getting 2 m x 700 of black off surf & sail WA ,
any other ideas ?

hey steve being shorter maybe a little more playful and 133 instead of 138 ,and slightly narrower @ 31 ,these board will not be on the shelf they need to be ordered ,

Nice.

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Tardy said..
Nice hook up to Brenno fast tuna ,its seems longboard are your thing dude ,but yes the glide is totally awesome on longer boards I often take my 9'11 insane out at 29 1/2 ,it has factors I like but then the nose swing for me it just gets in the way for lip bashing surfing ,but it is my fastest board and awesome on huge waves ,so I'm going the opposite ,next GR board 8'7 x 31 x 133 ,I have just gained all this relaxed muscle lately ,so the new stick has some beef ,getting made as we speak ,in saying that the 12 search @ 30 wide is a little wave crazy fun board to ride ,you need to be able to walk up and down ,so took some getting use not being a longboard background I usually hang at da rear kick pad ,
9,4 sound good for you ,can't wait to see your plan .heres mine ,its gonna be a machine. from the SUNOVA factory ,going my block emblem again ,(please note mine ) no copying, ha ,ha , Sunova can do anything for you ,I really like Creeks Ghost look with the black in the grain looks so nice ,

Tardy,That board just screams back foot, low swing weight!,judging from your videos,you should be very compatible !,the only down side for me personally is the 3k all up price tag !how do you get that past the minister of finance???

LOL, justaddwater ,....If she knew the She-it would defiantly hit the fan ,I have had to sell off a bit of gear to help pay ,but the words going through my head is ,.

....is this the one ?

but yes they are expensive pro models ,

I think this ones going to be a fire cracker ,I just got that feeling

I will always put her first .. specially on onshore days .

Great job of making an awesome board even better. Your design looks awesome!

I will bite on your width question with a few different perspectives.
For SUP, the slowest board I have ever ridden was an 8'3" x 32" Naish. A friend offered to give me the board for free and after a few waves, I turned him down because the board was pathetically slow. When I was learning, I briefly owned an 8'8" X 32" Starboard. It was thin and light and turned kind of okay but if you dropped down off the lip with the board flat, the width in the front slowed the board to nearly a stop when it hit the transition at the bottom of the wave. The fastest board I have ridden was my Speeed at 29.5". Like you, I have settled at right around 31" as being my perfect width.

You mentioned 14s. We do some downwinding here on Maui when the winds are 27 to 30 mph. My wife and I used to have SIC 16' x 27.5" boards that were fast in a straight line downwind but we did not like the way they surfed the bumps so we ordered a couple of custom 14s; hers is 28.5" and mine is 29.5". My wider board is definitely slower in displacement mode but it planes up faster when catching a bump or a swell. Once planing downwind, neither board will maintain speed as well as the 16' x 27.5, but they catch bumps easier and are way more fun to surf because of the width and outline curve.

Lastly, I have three wavesailing boards that are 75 liters, 82 liters, and 92 liters that range from 7.25 to 7.5 feet and from 22" to 23" wide. My flat water board for pure speed is 8'5" x 21' @ 87 liters making it longer and narrower than any of the wave boards. It is way faster than the shorter and wider waveboards, planes just as quick, carries speed through the jibes, but is not going to crank any tight vertical turns on a wave.

Balancing length versus width is always an interesting topic.

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Tardy said..
Does too much width on boards equal drag ,I relies on 14's narrow means fast ,but does this work with surfing as well ?

what are your thoughts

Coming from a prone surfing background, I think width slows down rail to rail transitioning and trimming, which can affect performance. However, width is a dominant factor in stability. I have a 31" wide board at 112 ltr and it is amazingly stable, but its more of a carving board than my other boards at 109 ltr / 29.5" width. It's great in big surf, but the narrower boards feel more agile, in small waves.

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Daveb27 said..
Coming from a prone surfing background, I think width slows down rail to rail transitioning and trimming, which can affect performance.

This is true, but I found out that it is also true of high volume (thick) rails.

And we have then two competing factors: More width raises latency in rail-to-rail... but also allows the shaper to "spread" the volume on a bigger surface, and thus reduce the rails volume... which helps rail-to-rail.

I was convinced that narrow was the way to go for quick rail-to-rail, but after using boards somewhat wider but with rails thinned as much as possible, I am not so sure... They paddle slower, that's for sure (width and thin rails both add drag), but on the wave I think I am enjoying them more.

To improve the rail to rail add some vee to the rear third of the board

Some great feed back guys and can tell its from personal experiences in riding different board ,Thank you .
I also felt the Naish x 32 's where slow John ,I put that down to the high rocker ,but very loose boards .
I am also thinking a constant speed in boards is also as important as just being fast in the pocket and in transitions ,
I remember my 8'7 flow at 120 was fast but as I approached the bottom hand turn area of the wave my weight would sink the board
to no return ,I had many times where i just kept going too deep into the water and either nose dived or sunk ,note I was 100-110 kgs suited up ,
also it would need extra pumping to stay moving or flowing on the wave
But once I went a bit wider it was easier to achieve my constant speed ,thus making it easier to surf ,
Maybe a more in-depth question would of been appropriate as to say which size wave ,and your weight ,and steepness of wave
our wave is a very vertical hard breaking wave ,after 1 year of riding the new 8,8 flow I could not ride the 8'7 anymore ,it was just to
difficult ,but did have fantastic speed at 30,25 wide ,but required more power in the wave ,so now it felt slow again ,I sold it not long after ,so maybe ,width + wave size + your weight is a equation to be considered rather than picking on width ,I am thinking the correct volume for your weight is also just as important ,which is why I have considered the GR boards .higher volume .
.does it create more speed ??? or is it just for catching waves in competitions,I am also guessing riding the wave till it is nothing will score extra points thus the extra Volume .anyway I am very keen to try the new SPX with a higher volume I would not normally ride .
The GR 8'8 wedge has 141 litres x 30.25 wide and is designed for small and bigger waves .

just when I thought I knew everything about boards I am still learning after 10 years ,

Tardy, to get the best result in the board over time you're going the right way with the same shaper and talk about realistic wave conditions majority of time than you ride rather than 1 in 5 year double mast high swell that needs a specialist custom board.
Let us know your thoughts after the first week.

Tardy, your thoughts on the ratio of weight to rail thickness being a big component of speed made me think of an experience I had a couple of weeks ago. I realize that this is not a windsurfing forum but I think this experience is relevant to SUP rail thickness.
On that day. the waves were small, waist to shoulder high. The wind was light so I needed to take out my largest sail. Though it was a mismatch, I wanted to take out my smaller board for more maneuverability on the small waves. The combination didn't work because the extra weight of the larger sail was burying the rails too deep during the bottom turn and bogging down. I moved the large sail onto my larger board which has much thicker rails and the board carried great speed through the turns. Later when the wind got stronger, I needed to put on a smaller sail but decided to stay on the larger board. Again, the mismatch did not work because the lighter sail did not have enough weight to set the rail and I could not get any grip on the bottom turn. With the lighter sail, I needed to move to my smaller board with thinner rails. The width and volume of the boards definitely played the major role in getting planing and control with the different size sails and boards, but on the wave it was all about matching the rail thickness to the size and weight of the sails.

interesting John ,I have always thought about using this same question to my windsurfing boards ,even though we all know speed boards are thin but they need more wind ,
I think this could work with SUPS ,Bigger waves narrow works better ,so better speeds ,more slower and smaller waves
wider boards are better or faster ,so no longer create as much drag ,so width could equal speed on smaller waves ?

But now I'm thinking ,rocker is more important ,and width seems less important ,

Great conversation. Here are some connections that might be relevant since you can relate to translating windsurfing board variables to SUP.
I have two Quatro windsurf boards that are both 92-liter dedicated light-wind wave boards for 12 to 18 mph winds with a 5.9 sail. The custom from about 10 years ago is 8'4" long and very narrow with very thin rails and tons of rocker. The newer one is about 7'6, 1.5 inches wider with very thick rails, much less rocker, and the rear footstrap is much further back right on the tail. The older board is a dog to get planing, instantly loses speed when jibing, and needs to be pumped to generate speed on the wave, but it has incredible control in bigger surf (10'- 20') which is what I ordered it for. The newer one planes instantly in the slightest breeze, carries speed through jibes and on average waves, and turns on a dime. However, it is scary as hell on waves much over 10 feet because it generates so much speed on the drops that it is hard to set the wide/thick rails in the bottom turn because the board is in the air half the time on the drop if there is any chop.
Even with much less rocker, the new board turns much tighter because the rear foot is right on the tail so there is no resistance behind the rear foot, kind of like infinite tail rocker. The old board with the rear foot further forward will not hook the turns nearly as tight but carves a secure high-speed arc on larger waves using its nose-to-tail rocker.
As you said, there are lots of variables contributing to speed; width, rail profile, and rocker all have pluses and minuses depending on the conditions.

Now a SUP analogy. Everyone knows that narrower boards are faster for racing and downwinding so those boards tend to range from 23.5" to 27.5". However, Robert Stehlik of Blue Planet Surf fame made a video titled "Wider boards can sometimes be faster." His example was on a downwinder on Oahu where the wind is lighter and the bumps smaller than on Maui. In that video on a day with mellower winds and smaller bumps, a 30" wide board was beating the 27.5" boards because it was easier to catch the smaller bumps. I designed my custom SIC downwind board for the South shore of Maui where the wind swells are much smaller and tighter than on the famous North shore. I wanted something that would plane up quicker to catch the smaller bumps and was not concerned about the top speed because I am not interested in racing. I went with 29.5" and it does just what I wanted. My previous 27.5" board had a higher top and speed but was harder to initially catch bumps because it was harder to get planing.

By the way, thanks for sending the nice south swell we had here this morning coming from your area.

On the Windsurfing / SUP analogies, you must also take into account that a SUP board acts both as a board and the "sail", as you also also use the board to generate speed from the wave energy, whereas the Windsurfing board only has to "spend" this energy that is provided by the sail.

This means that board features that add drag can be beneficial in SUPs if they also help generating speed.