Not sure if this has been covered before but can anyone tell me (in layman's terms) what attributes/difference in performance the various tail shapes of surf SUPs (in particular for vanguard style boards) offer e.g.

- round (typically found on non-vanguard style SUPs)
- pin (e.g. Sunova Speeed) more sensitive & helps generate speed?
- square (e.g. Gambler) to pick-up the wave early & offer additional stability?
- fish/swallow/fang (e.g. Minion/Slate/Vbox) to give the board more drive & easier rail-to-rail transition?

Thanks

IMO.. tail shapes are a little like sports car shapes.. Whether it be Porsche or Ferrari they are a personal choice and both work.. It's more of a look than a function.. Also a bit of a fashion thing.

I'm not saying a big square tail will work the same as a narrow pin tail but on the same board the rider would be pushed to know if there was a.. Squash.. Diamond.. Swallow.. Or round tail back there without looking.. Personally I prefer the less pointy options for safety reasons plus points are more easily damaged or dinged.

There is sooooo much more to a board than the outline of the tail..

Thanks DJ - appreciate your input & it's kinda what I wanted to hear.

I'm still new to the sport but I would like to think that I've got the gist of length vs width vs volume vs rocker vs parallel rails etc. so I don't want to start splitting hairs.

Agreed - SUPs are dangerous enough without pointy edges....

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SUPing said..
Not sure if this has been covered before but can anyone tell me (in layman's terms) what attributes/difference in performance the various tail shapes of surf SUPs (in particular for vanguard style boards) offer e.g.

- round (typically found on non-vanguard style SUPs)
- pin (e.g. Sunova Speeed) more sensitive & helps generate speed?
- square (e.g. Gambler) to pick-up the wave early & offer additional stability?
- fish/swallow/fang (e.g. Minion/Slate/Vbox) to give the board more drive & easier rail-to-rail transition?

Thanks

from a short board point view and a short sup

the simplest way is

round tail is the tighter good for guns or bigger boards holds better for bigger waves and draws a longer line , great for drawn out carves etc bigger lines
round pin tail even tighter than the round tail holds, but similar to round tail just holds even more used more on guns for this reason often
fish /swallow tail loose slide easier in a turn , and draws a shorter line as normally can slide the tail out and generally a wider tail is used with a swallow
round square is the go too all rounder sits kinda in the middle of the too

most surfers who can surf ok can definitely tell the difference between tail shapes , but for the beginner you wouldn't worry about tail shape too much .

Also shapers can pair up different rockers with different tail shapes so above can change ..like if you have heaps of tail rocker a round tail can still be loose and slide out ..due to the tail rocker

hope this helps in some way

That's a great help - cheers dtm!

As dtm said rocker line can do a lot between same tail shape.

Tail as nose are ends of the board design. they are just point of lines convergence. Those lines are , outline, rocker and shape rails. So I reckon to not focus on ends. Any subtle geometric position change on intermediate lines like widest point or OFO width make so much difference between two boards apparently with the same tail/

Hope this help in some way

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dtm said..

SUPing said..
Not sure if this has been covered before but can anyone tell me (in layman's terms) what attributes/difference in performance the various tail shapes of surf SUPs (in particular for vanguard style boards) offer e.g.

- round (typically found on non-vanguard style SUPs)
- pin (e.g. Sunova Speeed) more sensitive & helps generate speed?
- square (e.g. Gambler) to pick-up the wave early & offer additional stability?
- fish/swallow/fang (e.g. Minion/Slate/Vbox) to give the board more drive & easier rail-to-rail transition?

Thanks

from a short board point view and a short sup

the simplest way is

round tail is the tighter good for guns or bigger boards holds better for bigger waves and draws a longer line , great for drawn out carves etc bigger lines
round pin tail even tighter than the round tail holds, but similar to round tail just holds even more used more on guns for this reason often
fish /swallow tail loose slide easier in a turn , and draws a shorter line as normally can slide the tail out and generally a wider tail is used with a swallow
round square is the go too all rounder sits kinda in the middle of the too

most surfers who can surf ok can definitely tell the difference between tail shapes , but for the beginner you wouldn't worry about tail shape too much .

Also shapers can pair up different rockers with different tail shapes so above can change ..like if you have heaps of tail rocker a round tail can still be loose and slide out ..due to the tail rocker

hope this helps in some way

Good to see your still showing some interest Dan. Making a new Sup


For those who may remember a fun scene and passionate opinion.............
I think we should handle this conversation like in the original Big Wednesday. "Everybody knows that a pintail hangs" etc etc

Just to add two cents, the width of the board/tail makes a massive difference. How the board transitions this width like parallel rails to wide swallow seen in minion, Vanguard etc compared to a narrow swallow on a very curved outline completely different result. Or with flyers.....
Also such variety within each tail shape eg rounded pin, area pin or genuine pintails.

SUPing I think the Sunova Speed is more like a quite wide Diamond tail rather than a pin and Pintails as far as I know are generally for hold and control of speed rather than generating it. Hence why you find them on guns.

Apologies - diamond tail indeed (I still need to learn the lingo) & thanks for your feedback re pin tails...it's the opposite of what I thought but it makes sense

Thanks Kami....appreaciate your feedback given how involved/pro-active you are with new shapes/designs. The sport is evolving very quickly so it's sometimes hard for a to know what to focus on....the main thing being my current skill level (haha)

Narrow tails act almost similarly to an extra fin - increasing hold and stability and turning ability whilst slowing the board down.

Wide tails promote planing on top of the water - they increase speed and sliding (aka skatiness) whilst decreasing stability and hold.

Most boards fall somewhere between the two extremes. Shortboards are dominated by squash tails; these promote some some planing whilst not getting "too skatey".

Agree that tail shape makes a _massive_ difference. Rocker, tail shape, rail outline, fin placement are the four most important ingredients.

www.surfscience.com/topics/surfboard-anatomy/tail/basic-tail-shapes

Thanks JeanG - much appreciated & that link provides a really useful summary including aspects like rocker / width / bottom countour / fin placement etc.

To the Seabreezers experts i'm showing here which IMO is a designer exercice of what did all of us say, specially JeanG, Suping and Funnsurf and special mention to red thumbed Davidjohn at the back of the form
I reckon this design of board got every characteristics and advantages you need to take the best from a short board, mal, twin fin to longboard applied to a SUP .









This is why I cut out tail because it's working efficiently.

Nice looking board Kami.....have you actually shaped any of your designs cause I would love to see you on action on 1 of these boards?

Hi Suping, This board is in the shaping room by now, just finish design and templates today. She is the upgrading of this red board below which is a very good board, upgrade done with the Vangard balance ability,Meyeroffer principle and my own physical SUPing aptitude . Also have been testing around 15 board home made, this one concentrate all my knowledge about SUP after all the surfboard i've made or buy.
I plan to go in Bali in september and hope I can test the best board i can carry there. I cross my fingers this one will be da board, at 60 years not too much time left.

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SUPing said..
Not sure if this has been covered before but can anyone tell me (in layman's terms) what attributes/difference in performance the various tail shapes of surf SUPs (in particular for vanguard style boards) offer e.g.

Thanks

I'm not too fussed about all the red thumbs to my first reply and to be honest I'm not surprised because it seems reduiculuus to say a tail shape bears no difference in the same way of what a colour does.. But please let me explain more..

I've had at least 30 custom boards made for me over the years and have often been in the shaping room discussing shapes through the whole prosess.. I've also had the privilege to watch many great shapers shape with a faverite being Bob McTavish mostly because of his speed..

So I know a thing or two about shapes and how they work.. I know exactly how different a swallow performs compaird to a round or square tail but what I'm talking about here is something very different.. For example.. I've had a very good look at two new PSH 9'3" x 28 3/8" Rippers.. Both same length.. Bothe same width.. Both same nose.. rail.. rocker.. and tails except for the 6" wide tail one is a slight swallow and one is a slight diamond.. I honestly think the best surfer in the world including Blane Chambers himself could not tell you which board was which by surfing it alone and not by looking..

I've read about big wave surfer Garrett McNamara having a couple of his big wave guns with him.. Both 10'4".. Both the same width (21" I think) but one of his pin tail guns has a small 2" wide swallow at the tip of the tail.. These are different boards because of a slight change in v.. concave.. and maybe rocker.. But that little 2" wide swallow at the tip has very little if not anything to do with the boards performance..

I've probably dug myself an even bigger hole now.. .. Just trying to explain because my first post was not that clear..

The original question was referring to tail shapes in particular Vanguard style boards.. Not short boards like Dan makes (btw they're beautiful boards and he knows his stuff) because a good short board surfer could tell the difference in tails for sure.. But a Vanguard style board has bigger restrictions because of its shape and whether the line between the two tail tips goes in half an inch like a swallow or out half an inch like a diamond the difference in performance is so little I doubt anyone could tell.. It's much more a look thing.. IMO.. and that was my point.. (Pardon the Pun)

Nice work Kami - please post pictures of the finished product....hopefully before your trip in Sept. We've also booked a holiday to Bali in early Sept so if I see someone ripping it up on this style of board, I'll know it's you (haha)

PS - I'm sure you still have many years left to look forward to on a SUP....it keeps you young at heart

For the record DJ - you got a thumbs up from me cause for a novice (which is what I am) it's all about keeping things in perspective

Thank SUPing to be so fair can be a NZ naturally attitude and I hope we will share few Bintang there down the Buckit
Here is a short video from february this winter in Carribean Island:
#t=5

and that video few years ago still with a sore fore hand elbow







Dear DJ, when I spot on your red thumbing, was just kidding you, was sure of your surfing background although you are holding a paddle to cast sooooo cool video as you used to do

What about asymm tails? Like the one on some of the infinity boards.

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JasonR said..
What about asymm tails? Like the one on some of the infinity boards.

As SUPers are more asymmetric standing than proned surfer are , asymmetric outlines have more reasons to be shape.
Thx Jason to spot on this
It need to be shape differently for normal foot or natural, can be why big brand are not looking at asymmetrical.
I'm asking is this shape has been done for a goofie SUPer or to go left down the line whatever natural or goofie the surfer is.
Anyone can confirm on of those situations

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DavidJohn said..
Personally I prefer the less pointy options for safety reasons plus points are more easily damaged or dinged.

Same here!

Plus I found that the ergonomics of foot placement relative to hydrodynamic performance is more important in SUP than in prone surfing: moving your rear foot around is critical to the performance of our high volume surfcrafts, and the paddle leverage helps us there. Tail rails and volume, fins and pad position are more important than tail shape in my view.

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Kami said...

JasonR said..
What about asymm tails? Like the one on some of the infinity boards.

As SUPers are more asymmetric standing than proned surfer are , asymmetric outlines have more reasons to be shape.
Thx Jason to spot on this
It need to be shape differently for normal foot or natural, can be why big brand are not looking at asymmetrical.
I'm asking is this shape has been done for a goofie SUPer or to go left down the line whatever natural or goofie the surfer is.
Anyone can confirm on of those situations

I love the assym's and had about 10 and still have two (windsurfing boards).

They are not for goofy and regular but rather going left or going right.. Long side or no flyers on the bottom turn and short side and flyers for the top turns..
The rail profile and rail outline.. and even rocker are often different on each side..

Are both those surfing clips of you Kami because if so - hats off to you sir

Thanks SUPing, here a other one 6'9" 28" flex tail made with a body board. Every one talked about every tails excepted Flex tail. I made it with a bodyboard rear part stick on the front of an shortboard SUP.
The main advantage of flex is the changing and adapting rail to the water flow and pressure. Fins are flexible so why tails can't be



Not really in action on this wave because need more curl and power to make working this kind of tail.

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The best thing in this short clip is, it has been friendly done by a young proned surfer.

Hoops was forgetting to make you know channels bottom board. Advantage of that kind of tail used to be mixed with swallow tail is to make the board stiffer as faster you go. Excellent in down the line or powerful surfing.

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DavidJohn said..

Kami said...

JasonR said..
What about asymm tails? Like the one on some of the infinity boards.

As SUPers are more asymmetric standing than proned surfer are , asymmetric outlines have more reasons to be shape.
Thx Jason to spot on this
It need to be shape differently for normal foot or natural, can be why big brand are not looking at asymmetrical.
I'm asking is this shape has been done for a goofie SUPer or to go left down the line whatever natural or goofie the surfer is.
Anyone can confirm on of those situations

I love the assym's and had about 10 and still have two (windsurfing boards).

They are not for goofy and regular but rather going left or going right.. Long side or no flyers on the bottom turn and short side and flyers for the top turns..
The rail profile and rail outline.. and even rocker are often different on each side..

Thank's DJ for feed back on those asymmetric tails, make me thinking about

Pointy tails are important on guns. Outside of guns they are not really used.

Agree that small changes don't do much. But big changes - square tail vs pin, simmons tail vs squash, squash vs round - you're going to notice a big difference in the board. Little stuff, "flair" - mini wings, mini diamonds, mini anything - obviously will have less impact.

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Small, medium, large wave tails. As long as I've got the right board for the wave, I'm not good enough to feel the small differences.

I think within a certain range the average surfer, like me, won't really feel the difference between a rounded pin, squash, or swallow tail.
There is a esthetic preference. Maybe some shapers have a preference as well.

FROM A SHAPER OF 20YRS+ to dj...a tail shape makes SOO MUCH DIFFERENCE TO A BOARDS TURNING CIRCLE..... ON ANY TYPE OF BOARD ITS CRAZY!....if it didnt we would all just be riding 1 design tail on EVERYTHING!!!

Yes Jay agree with you what esthetic can be the meanest purpose of the tail shape, can be this one esthetic as well as functional, I hope .
7'27" 83 liters, mono to double concaves blended into 6 channels winged

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shaper said..
FROM A SHAPER OF 20YRS+ to dj...a tail shape makes SOO MUCH DIFFERENCE TO A BOARDS TURNING CIRCLE..... ON ANY TYPE OF BOARD ITS CRAZY!....if it didnt we would all just be riding 1 design tail on EVERYTHING!!!

I agree with you SHAPER about short board , just mind we are talking about SUP even short as i do as I currently ride 6'5" SUP, I can say tail shape is affecting surfriding in a lot less importance.

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shaper said..
FROM A SHAPER OF 20YRS+ to dj...a tail shape makes SOO MUCH DIFFERENCE TO A BOARDS TURNING CIRCLE..... ON ANY TYPE OF BOARD ITS CRAZY!....if it didnt we would all just be riding 1 design tail on EVERYTHING!!!

Read my post again please.. and I will will try and explain my point one more time..

Imagine two identical boards both with a 4" square tail.. Now cut a v into the first one of the two boards in that square tail that goes 1/4" into the center of the board.. Glass it up and you now don't have a square tail anymore.. You now have a swallow tail board.. It might only be a very slight swallow but it's still a swallow tail..

Now.. Take that piece that you cut from the first board (it's a triangle.. 4" long and a 1/4" hight) and glue it onto the tail of the second board and guess what.. Now you don't have a square tail anymore.. What is it? .. It's now a diamond tail board..

Now surf both boards and IMO there is no way you could tell the difference.. You would have a swallow tail board surfing exactly the same as a diamond tail board.. How could the turning circle be any different?

This is my point..