Hey guys

Ive got a scenario which is baffling me. I've been sup surfing and charging decent waves for a good few years now and down to playing on that size on 7'2 - 7'10 and 90-100l boards. Recently I got a new 7'10 x 28 x 4 (103l) carbon board. Good rocker, decent rails, squash tail and probably the best all rounder board I've had. The guy who sold it to me complained that the board just didn't Wana turn, but was great at everything else.
On the first try, I kind of agreed- it didn't want to turn as sharp as my 7'2 hyper nut (which is not meant for hollow waves either), so I changed out the Gerry Lopez quad fins that came with it and went to an old much smaller fcs hx3 nexus set in thruster. This helped a bit. I also tried other thruster sets but nothing made it feel magical.
I got used to it and could rip in smaller steeper waves- the board can handle a steep drop like a champ and best in hollow or heavier waves too. Where I can't seem to figure it out, is when it's overhead and strong offshore. The board just wants to run straight and struggles to want to break a line and turn. This is exactly what the guy who sold it to me said, but I thought I'd fixed it. As soon as it's strong off shore and big, the board doesn't Wana turn.

I thought going to a smaller set would losen it up (it did help in other conditions) but over this and the board just wants to run down the wave. Do I need a bigger fin for bigger stuff? I thought this would further give it drive and make it harder to cut speed and pivot?
i just don't get it. The Board has heaps of rocker and a lovely tail / tail line, I have more confidence taking a steep drop than any others before (I've had deep pro's, hokua's, JL super tech, starboard pro) etc.

Any ideas? Just seems odd that the previous owner said the same. He's on a 7'7 JL destroyer now and said it turns much better.

It may be that with offshore winds, you unconsciously move tour weight forward to push the nose down, and forget to move your back foot enough to turn tight.

For fins, you want to keep big sides for hold, but play with the center fin or rear fins size and position. The front fins are providing the main "wings", and the rear act as "stabilizers". But I don't thing it is a gear problem.

What can also happen in bigger waves is that you need to let the rail dig into the water before turning, so compared to turns at slower speed you must kind of delay a tiny bit the actual turn: if you turn too early, and are not ready for the increased centrifugal force, your body will straigthen up and you will stop the turn and "track". Basically you must adjust your "internal timer" to slow things down.

PS: narrower tails, and especially round / round pin, work magic in faster waves. Square tails are stabler, but become harder to roll.

It could/will be a number of things - if looking at the board as the reason:

- what's the rail like - hard on the tail or soft and tucked?
- is the rocker a curve all the way through or a staged rocker (eg flat in the middle)?
- what's the bottom shape like and does it work in partnership with the fin placement for the type of waves it's meant to be surfed in?
- Are the fins in the right spot?
- it's not a skatey style of board like a hypernut so it will be harder to turn - Quads stiffen the board up with less drag so perfect for barrels or big fast stuff. But if the rear fins are too big - it won't turn.
- the nose looks reasonably wide for a HP surf shape - maybe it's catching wind on those offshore windy days.
- kick pad seems a long way forward on the deck pad - maybe you're not getting back far enough
- I like XL side fins and Med centre fin in my thruster SUPs, but i'm also over 100kg...

If I had to guess, maybe it has a flat bottom, tucked rails and the side fin position is straighter than it should be. All things to help wth grip on steep walls and not limiting top speed, but these are not things to help turning on weaker or less critical waves...

Colas is also right, may also be a technique thing also...

Thanks guys- it shouldn't be a technique thing as I have not had this happen with any other boards before. I dig the tail hard in the offshore stuff but the board keeps going straight. It's a single to vee through the fins, rails hard at the back and feel kind of tucked under (hardish) most of the way forward too. It's got a good bit of curve and a lot of nose rocker with a Thinned out tail. As a thruster, it should carve up turns much tighter than my hypernut which is a quad, fat railed, fat tailed and no rockered board. It does feel like for it to really pivot, you have to be right on the very back of the tail (but seems strange that it would require this) for a 7'10? I've been running big sides and smaller centre for a long time (also tried this) but didn't make much of a difference. i wonder if it is something with the fin positioning? Seems To be most affected during strong off shore and bigger waves. Not sure if anyone else has ever noticed the same correlation?

Here's a couple of other pics on small waves that were almost too small to make turns work.

OK.

Hypernuts sit up on the water which makes them skatey and feel fast and easy to turn without really engaging a rail. Especially with their wide tail. I haven't owned a H'nut, but have owned a Sunova Skate which surfs similarly IMO.

As you say, with the harder rail edge going forward - maybe it's skating a bit too much as the speed increases with the extra water movement going up the face from the strong wind...not letting you engage the rail properly. I'm no physics expert, but this makes sense to me.

A single into V should really help you lay it over...

Having a Hypernut and tried various sizes I agree with Hoppo about that they turn different.
On your board the centrefin looks pretty forward and the tail rather wide.
The rails in the back looks on the picks very round where an sharper rails help to initiate the turns better. All stuff that works for low speed short turns and in a straight line but not when trying to turn at speed.

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thegreatsup said..
Thanks guys- it shouldn't be a technique thing as I have not had this happen with any other boards before.

Each board has advantages and drawbacks, so you MUST adapt your technique to the board to enjoy it.

And... it is clear from your second picture that your front foot is way too forward to turn. Look at how your body instinctively tries to get as far back as possible to compensate the bad feet placement...

Basically for turns your front foot should be around the handle, and the back foot either on the front fins (wide bottom turns), between the fins (tighter turns), on the rear fin (top turn).
For instance:



And your rear foot should be always moving!


And here is a counter-example of bad foot placement: my rear foot is too far forward, note how the board does not want to get on the rail and thus stays flat:

What works in smaller waves (width, thickness, curve in outline, large fins) fights you at speed. You just cannot engage the rail due to the lift being generated by the board. Technique can sometimes overcome this but it looks ugly. Thin narrow boards are the only solution. Either you paddle underwater as the elite guys do with negative volume or you go longer. For me at 100+ kegs it meant 10 footers which help on offshore takeoffs.

Colas is spot on if you are indeed trying to turn from where you are standing in that second pic when waves get bigger.

With boards like a hypernut, turning from the middle is quite easy, I can speak from experience when I had a Sunova Speeed that it would'nt turn at all unless your foot was right on the tail. Which was almost impossible to do in fat weak slopey waves - as you'd come off the back of the wave.

Do you feel your back foot pushing against the tail kick when surfing the bigger stuff?

Interesting that the new version of your board has a centre fin box as apposed to 5 x FCS2 plugs...

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colas said..

thegreatsup said..
Thanks guys- it shouldn't be a technique thing as I have not had this happen with any other boards before.

Each board has advantages and drawbacks, so you MUST adapt your technique to the board to enjoy it.

And... it is clear from your second picture that your front foot is way too forward to turn. Look at how your body instinctively tries to get as far back as possible to compensate the bad feet placement...

Basically for turns your front foot should be around the handle, and the back foot either on the front fins (wide bottom turns), between the fins (tighter turns), on the rear fin (top turn).
For instance:



And your rear foot should be always moving!

And here is a counter-example of bad foot placement: my rear foot is too far forward, note how the board does not want to get on the rail and thus stays flat:

I agree with Colas with your front foot placement being too far forward to be able to rip a hard turn. Rear foot needs to be right in front of the back raised kick for the board to turn sharply (you sound like you know this already).

I have the 7'8 hypernut and it turns so easy compared to my 8'0 sunova flash. You need to remind yourself to get back further before cranking a turn. The rear fin also seems up a fair way up from the tail.

Also the toe and cant of the front fins may be straight and not aimed to the centre stringer which would make it track and go fast and need some adjusting with your technique when turning.

You seem to have tried many fin setups and I would have suggested a smaller centre rear with he larger fronts which works well on my Sunova flash.

Maybe the board design itself is not totally correct eg. rocker profile, tail lift/kick, rails too sharp in the back 1/4 of the board.

Keep persevering with adjusting your technique on bigger waves and swapping fins and hopefully it will click.

It seems that there is a lot of rail curve combined with a vee at tail make her behaviour with no reaction ( as you cant turn) because to turn a board it needs leverage between your front foot stance and the back foot is pushing mainly on the front and side( rear) fins as a pivot point
So, change the Nexus for a go with the H2 from FCS; H2 got nearly the same template as Nexus is but gets an extra Cant and Toe without the Nexus concave shape originally made for performance concave hull surfboard. That would make a difference, therefore the vee at the tail with a pronounced rocker is doing
How much rocker this board has?it seems from far that this board has been made for hollow punchy waves at least.

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Kami said..
So, change the Nexus for a go with the H2 from FCS;

I - respectfully - disagree:
- nexus were the best "classical" (non s-wings / C-Drive / Quobba) FCS fins I used. I had the H2 and the H3 (nexus). H2 need to be constantly in ultra tight turns to show any advantages, whereas the H3 works also beautifully and smoothly at speed.
- no fin change will do anything as long as he is as far forward as on the pic. Save the money for more important things.

Hey guys

cheers for the responses- please don't reflect too much on the photo of me on the wave as that was one of the smallest days I've taken the board out on and I had to pump / stand so far forward just to get the board driving. I would normally stand further back when on bigger waves. More my point of technique, is that I haven't had this issues with longer, more volume and heavier boards before. Also- my 8'0 sunova flash could rip the turns compared to the hypernut so my assumption was that this board should've been similar to
the flash. The Hypernut is not made for pivotal or handling overhead waves so I would expect this board to turn much better in these conditions.
I've attached some pics below. You can see the rocker, hard tail (extends much further down the board than my HN), thinned and and quite narrow tail. Good single in the nose to very slight vee starting at the back fins.
It is remarkably stable for the volume and rocker- seems like maybe there is a flat middle section which is getting stuck in bigger stuff? I guess back to my other question on fins for these conditions- am I right that going to bigger fins won't aid in making it more pivotal or breaking from a straight down the line trajectory any easier? I can run bigger sides, but can't go any smaller in the middle. It's already a 65-80kg medium surfing fin with an up-right template.

Mmm, hard to judge rocker on pics, but your board seem to have plenty of it, if I compare with the ones I use in good waves:
(The lower one is a 2019 Gong Alley 8'1" with a fast do-it-all rocker, the top one a 2022 with more rocker for hollower waves)

I think you might have hit on it mentioning the flat spot in the rocker. I have one board that I am trying very hard to love. The problems were that at speed in bigger overhead waves. The board catches the wave and drops in easy. But sometimes there I am at the bottom of the wave and when I lean in for the bottom turn it fights me and tracks straight. Disaster. Colas shed the light for me when he discovered that this famous shaper stated he skimped on the rocker, the back foot needs to be fully back on the kick pad to unlock the turn. As stated the more forward position with my feet during the paddle in and drop just won't enable turning. Good luck.

This is a pic from the last day in question. Set waves were prob a bit bigger than this and a lot of wind coming up the face + current pulling people out back.

@colas, thanks for your pics. By looking at them, I'd say mine has the same If not more than your gong alley. It really had surprised me at how it can drop in to heavier hollow stuff. Doesn't paddle like it has that rocker though- feels much flatter when paddling

It has a heavy single through the middle, which flattens the bottom through the middle of the board - making it faster in smaller waves and more stable to stand on. But it can limit its top speed and increases tracking as the speed gets high.

Here's a vid explaining bottom shape / concave - relevant @ 1:30.