I'm new to this forum so unaware whether this topic has been mentioned before.

Anyone know of a supplier of straight ie uncranked SUP paddles. Please don't launch into a diatribe of how I don't understand why I need a cranked paddle, although I'm happy to debate the advantages if anyone is interested.

I have much experience of all paddle sports and want an uncranked paddle for my SUP, can't find them anywhere.

Naish LE Race paddle only has 7deg "crank" as opposed to the normal 10-12degrees.....no-one makes a straight one that I know of, but you could take a dragon-boat paddle and extend the shaft.....

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RevPeterShark said..

Please don't launch into a diatribe of how I don't understand why I need a cranked paddle, although I'm happy to debate the advantages if anyone is interested.

We're always interested in new ideas here..what are the advantages of a straight paddle?
(legit question, genuinely interested)

"Select" has its race paddle with only 2.5 degree angle: http://select-kayaks.com/en/paddles/stand-up/race-prosup/

They also make custom paddles, I know they had made some with no angle too.

From what I read, less or no angle is better once your technique is good, and you know how to catch forward and apply power early.

I have some 7 degrees ones ("Salt Paddle" Gong models), you definitely can get a faster cadence efficiently with them.

Advantages of a straight paddle, good question. I have trained advanced paddlers across a range of sports and given the interface between boat body and blade a lot of thought.

Briefly:-

1 The blade is at the angle you want, when and where you want it, cranked paddles originated with marathon canoe paddling where they kneel and want the optimum power phase a little further back in the stroke. This does not apply to SUP as we have far longer levers involved being stood up.

2 With a straight paddle, bow and stern rudder strokes are more effective as the blade is not permanently trying to turn you, it's in line with your hands.

3 With draw strokes for moving sideways, water does not 'escape' under the blade, as it's at optimum angle, ie perpendicular to the force applied.

4 Support strokes eg when on a wave, give the blade a better angle rather than the braking effect of a cranked paddle.

5 Switching sides is more straightforward and both sides of the blade can be used with the same effect.

It seems to me that with SUP cranked paddles have become the norm for no good reason other than perhaps no-one being prepared to question it.

The other concern I have is that practically all blade shapes are a variation on the 'teardrop' style, this makes the blade fully immersed with maximum resistance just about instantly. Open canoe paddles enjoy a huge range of blade shapes to suit your style, what you want to do etc, eg a good ottertail paddle would be ideal for cruising as the power comes on gradually while a blade with higher aspect ratio like a sugar island would give instant power and control for surf etc.

Thanks for the responses so far, I may have to find a custom builder.

I will be very interested to see some response to that last post.

Wonder what the Hawaiians would have to say.

ET.

There has been some mention of ottertail paddles on the breeze

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/any-opinions-on-otter-tail-design-paddles/

And starboard have a range of high aspect blades but all are angled

Pete

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RevPeterShark said..

I'm new to this forum so unaware whether this topic has been mentioned before.

Anyone know of a supplier of straight ie uncranked SUP paddles. Please don't launch into a diatribe of how I don't understand why I need a cranked paddle, although I'm happy to debate the advantages if anyone is interested.

I have much experience of all paddle sports and want an uncranked paddle for my SUP, can't find them anywhere.

I hand make timber paddles so can make you anything that you want, check out my website www.longshaftpaddles.com/ for examples of my current range

www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/StandUpPaddle-Paddles-and-Accessories/~ai95q/2013-Custom-Bamboo.aspx?search=UyayjZk0czkseGc2XIqE2g==

A couple of years back I emailed Dave chun at kialoa to do me a sup paddle with one of his dragon boat blades. I saw bonga Perkins use a modified one in Hawaii. He was more than willing to help out. Really nice bloke.
Didn't go through with it cause I couldn't afford the freight etc at the time. Could be an option for you to follow up?
Hope this helps

I'm trying to understand what you are saying - please help me out by commenting below:

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RevPeterShark said..

Advantages of a straight paddle, good question. I have trained advanced paddlers across a range of sports and given the interface between boat body and blade a lot of thought.

Briefly:-

1 The blade is at the angle you want, when and where you want it, cranked paddles originated with marathon canoe paddling where they kneel and want the optimum power phase a little further back in the stroke. This does not apply to SUP as we have far longer levers involved being stood up.

2 With a straight paddle, bow and stern rudder strokes are more effective as the blade is not permanently trying to turn you, it's in line with your hands.

3 With draw strokes for moving sideways, water does not 'escape' under the blade, as it's at optimum angle, ie perpendicular to the force applied.

4 Support strokes eg when on a wave, give the blade a better angle rather than the braking effect of a cranked paddle.

5 Switching sides is more straightforward and both sides of the blade can be used with the same effect.

It seems to me that with SUP cranked paddles have become the norm for no good reason other than perhaps no-one being prepared to question it.

The other concern I have is that practically all blade shapes are a variation on the 'teardrop' style, this makes the blade fully immersed with maximum resistance just about instantly. Open canoe paddles enjoy a huge range of blade shapes to suit your style, what you want to do etc, eg a good ottertail paddle would be ideal for cruising as the power comes on gradually while a blade with higher aspect ratio like a sugar island would give instant power and control for surf etc.

Thanks for the responses so far, I may have to find a custom builder.

re 1: Don't we also want the power a little further back standing up - the most power is from about 1ft in front of feet to our feet which will incur negative blade angle if there is no crank?
re 2: I don't understand what makes the cranked paddle turn us more than a straight paddle?
re 3: This one sort of makes sense to me..
re 4: Also sort of makes sense except this is easily compensated by paddler input
re 5: Surely you do not suggest having the same profile on both sides of the paddle? How would this be more efficient?

Thanks.....

Hi PeterP
Apologies for the delay in replying, been paddling and incommunicado all week. My previous post was a bit of a rush, I'll try to expand a bit for you, although without the know-how to provide diagrams may not be too much better...

1. The maximum power we can get from the paddle is generally when the paddle is perpendicular to the force applied. As the power stroke is often an arc due to the top hand being the fulcrum the maximum power we would expect to be mid way through such an arc where it is perpendicular to the force being applied, the first phase having a downward component to it, and the last part having a degree of 'lifting' water to it. If we held the paddle vertically and pulled back with both hands together the power would be even once the stroke is fully immersed in steady water. However, there is usually a degree of pushing with the top hand to give maximum speed and therefore power at the blade end through the water, and the fulcrum moves further down the shaft.
As you say, the original thinking with cranked paddles was to give the power further back and reduce the lifting water effect in canoe racing, but their strokes have very fast cadence and the plop phase of entering the water requires the blade to take a moment for maximum grip, this hardly applies for SUP where we have full body for power and long levers for the paddle and arms and a lower cadence, we can happily have maximum power at any stage of the stroke, I advocate that we are better off deciding that by having a neutral straight shafted paddle.

2. I use an adaptation of canoe and kayak bow and stern rudder strokes for steering and turning an SUP. The bow rudder can be used to turn towards the paddling side when you have momentum, and can also be used cross deck, the drive face of the paddle is forwards and towards the bow, it can also be used as a 'C' stroke as a precursor to the power stroke to help acceleration. With a cranked paddle, the top hand has to go uncomfortable outboard to present the blade at an efficient angle to the water.
The stern rudder can be used as a turning stroke on either side and hold the board straight or steer towards or away from the paddle, at the end of the stroke, the blade is held in line like a rudder with the thumb of the top hand pointing up. Again, to hold the blade at the right angle the top hand on a cranked paddle needs to be further outboard and less comfortable and efficient.
My point about the turning effect relates to the fact that the blade angle of a cranked paddle will present to the water at that angle unless adjusted by the paddler and therefore turn the board.

3. me too.

4.The compensation of the paddler can and of course is carried out, but uncranked this is unnecessary. The back or non drive face of the paddle is used on a wave for stability and to help support the paddler, but to do so requires the front hand to be held lower to compensate for the crank and reduce the braking effect. I would argue that this action puts the hands and therefore whole body in a less comfortable and dynamic position.

5. The relatively recent evolution of diverse paddle profiles has been the result of attempts to gain the wing effect benefits to paddles, particularly for those fast cadence racers where the stroke path is also changed to gain the reward. The other and older development was 'curved' and then 'spoon' shaped blades which aim to give additional grip in the water by reducing the ability of the water to escape around the edges of the blade. I am not aware of any other developments or benefits but am happy to be convinced otherwise. The profiles on these blades have certain advantages in specific circumstances but are in my view outweighed by the loss of versatility, less efficient rudders, cross deck and reverse strokes. In the kayak world, winged and asymmetric paddles are fairly common. In canoeing like SUP, a greater variety of strokes on both sides are used and it is the shape and area of the blade that varies, they use a flat single bladed paddle as it is most versatile.

Of course, with all such discussions, the 'best' is a combination of the effects of physics and physiology within the 'boat-body-blade' relationship.

Thanks, look forward to your comments

I paddled with straight blades for my first few years of sup'ing and thought they were great and didn't understand the need for an angled blade when mine were working fine.. So I thought.. Since using an angled blade I'm paddling so much better..More reach.. More power.. And a lot better release at the end of the stroke.. I've been using angled blade now for about 6 yrs and not long ago I tryed a straight blade again.. and hated it.. I thought about the old days and I thought to myself 'what was I thinking'..

I think there's a reason why 99.9% of the best sup paddlers use an angle on their blade and I don't think it's just because that's all there is.. Dave Chun from Kialoa paddles is always saying that he makes paddles the way his team likes them rather than just what he thinks is best.. I'm sure he's made straight blade sup paddles in the past but if his team and paddle testers don't like them he won't make them to sell.. I think there's more good things about having some blade angle than there is bad.. but I'm not an expert on this..It's just my thoughts.

DJ

Hi David John
Very pleased cranked work well for you. I would be interested to understand how the crank gives you more reach, more power and a better release though. Also, I'm not advocating cranked or straight, just trying to find a straight paddle supplier for me, which, thanks to this forum I believe I may have.

I like a conversation that changes the focus from the "norm"
It reminds us to challenge what we "know" and look for different results.

Here is something to think about RevPeter:
You can get a GREAT deal on an Ke Nalu setup by buying the new inexpensive Ke Nalu "Honu"
I don't like the blade at all.... but you get a Ke Nalu shaft and handle at bargain price.
Since they are all customer assembled with hot glue, they are easy to experimented with.
http://kenalu.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=53

You could the make your own blades or retrofit a blade from a different paddle sport.

Seems like making a blade with no "crank" would be doable... at least for R & D

Post a follow up if you find something

May be a last point "6." has been forgot :
The paddle hold between the water and the SUPer draging behind as a fin, for example backside lay back paddde trimming behind and between the water and body back,
I had allready some experiment of this case with a crancked shaft but I cannot say if the stabilisation and drive has been provide by the planshape of the paddle or the reinforced edge on the extrados and to know if both of them are oblic or paralel to the water. So, I would like to try a straight shaft paddle for this tricky surfing manouvre . Can it worthing it?
Anyway thanks you to focus my curiosity on straighted shaft.

Sorry for my english

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RevPeterShark said..
Hi David John Very pleased cranked work well for you. I would be interested to understand how the crank gives you more reach, more power and a better release though. Also, I'm not advocating cranked or straight, just trying to find a straight paddle supplier for me, which, thanks to this forum I believe I may have.

I was actually thinking the same thing myself. Would be interested in David's perspective on this.

Ozzie

ZRE stateside will make 0 degree paddles.

Judging by the deafening silence in response to this post it would appear that there is no good argument for a wonkey paddle. Manufacturers take note

There is heaps of info out there on the anatomy of a paddle stroke.



I am sure if straight is faster the top guys would be onto it.

Good Topic got my attention.

Having paddled outriggers for almost 20 years , using straight and offset paddles , plus been into Sups for 6 years, here is my views on it. The biggest thing I don't like on the straight paddle is the shovelling up of water at the end of the stroke , once your stroke gets to your foot on a Sup with a straight paddle you are starting to lift the water and not pushing back , which is a very messy inefficient release , an offset paddle will do the same if you go back too far but it will allow a longer stroke back with the offset and also gives those extra centimetres at the front of the stroke. I also find at the front of the stroke the offset also allows a cleaner entry as the angle of approach is reduced compared to the shaft angle , this combined with a slight roll of the wrist allows a knife like entry creating little or no disturbance.

With a clean entry you get maximum grip in the water , we are not trying to rip the paddle back through the water but pull the craft past the point of entry , so creating a big splash is not the go at either end of the stroke. I made a really nice timber paddle with a straight head and just hated it , it's hanging on my wall above my computer and that’s where it will stay.

Re the Beaver tail , can't comment on that but head shape is worth more debate that's for sure.

That's my 2 bobs worth.

I think the blade offset allows you to transfer your weight to the paddle more easily. The idea is to get your weight off the board and onto the paddle so as to allow the board nose to rise rather than sink. I think the unique standing position of SUP may encourage his aspect of the action compared to if you are sitting or kneeling because you have the inherent advantage of being able to use your legs to adjust the height of your torso through the stroke. The top guys in full sprint mode are performing almost a "crunch", bringing their knees to their chest allowing the board to rise to get over the bow wave.

I have a paddle with no blade offset and find that I tend to change my paddle stroke to accommodate it. So as with most things paddle-related, there are probably advantages and disadvantages of using blade angle. I do tend to find my low or no blade angle paddles harder on the body to use in terms of maintaining forward motion over long periods because of the more immediate catch, but certainly there will be certain types of stroke where blade angle is just an annoyance, especially if you are coming from a paddle sport which does not use a cranked paddle. As one of the posters mentioned, ZRE will let you choose any custom angle you like. I'm always surprised that we so not discuss this issue more since a change of even a few degrees alters the paddling experience quite a lot, and he stroke technique is changing all the time. Maybe for certain aspects of the sport, eg. sprinting, a blade with no offset would be better.

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Piros said..

Good Topic got my attention.

Having paddled outriggers for almost 20 years , using straight and offset paddles , plus been into Sups for 6 years, here is my views on it. The biggest thing I don't like on the straight paddle is the shovelling up of water at the end of the stroke , once your stroke gets to your foot on a Sup with a straight paddle you are starting to lift the water and not pushing back , which is a very messy inefficient release , an offset paddle will do the same if you go back too far but it will allow a longer stroke back with the offset and also gives those extra centimetres at the front of the stroke. I also find at the front of the stroke the offset also allows a cleaner entry as the angle of approach is reduced compared to the shaft angle , this combined with a slight roll of the wrist allows a knife like entry creating little or no disturbance.

With a clean entry you get maximum grip in the water , we are not trying to rip the paddle back through the water but pull the craft past the point of entry , so creating a big splash is not the go at either end of the stroke. I made a really nice timber paddle with a straight head and just hated it , it's hanging on my wall above my computer and that???s where it will stay.

Re the Beaver tail , can't comment on that but head shape is worth more debate that's for sure.

That's my 2 bobs worth.

Thanks Piros
The counter argument to your shovelling up comment, basically, if that happens too much the whole stroke should be carried out further forward and the blade clipped out by the paddler. The amount of crank on most paddles of only a few degrees, generally between 7 and 14 and would not have a huge affect on this. The most important thing I believe, is to immerse the blade cleanly without too much turbulence so that it grips the water quickly and to maximise the power, (ie pull) during the middle part of the stroke when the force is perpendicular to the blade. I believe that a cranked paddle gives a greater angle of entry and therefore more turbulent stroke.


Hi Hilly
"There is heaps of info out there on the anatomy of a paddle stroke.
I am sure if straight is faster the top guys would be onto it."

Thanks for that video, although the main gist seemed to me to be about length and speed of stroke, do you know of any that address the issue we are discussing re straight or cranked paddle? Also, the fact that the top guys use cranked may suggest that they have some advantages for straight line speed and efficiency, but for most of us, we want to do other strokes as well.


Thanks for your input Area10
"I think the blade offset allows you to transfer your weight to the paddle more easily. The idea is to get your weight off the board and onto the paddle so as to allow the board nose to rise rather than sink. I think the unique standing position of SUP may encourage his aspect of the action compared to if you are sitting or kneeling because you have the inherent advantage of being able to use your legs to adjust the height of your torso through the stroke. The top guys in full sprint mode are performing almost a "crunch", bringing their knees to their chest allowing the board to rise to get over the bow wave. I have a paddle with no blade offset and find that I tend to change my paddle stroke to accommodate it. So as with most things paddle-related, there are probably advantages and disadvantages of using blade angle. I do tend to find my low or no blade angle paddles harder on the body to use in terms of maintaining forward motion over long periods because of the more immediate catch, but certainly there will be certain types of stroke where blade angle is just an annoyance, especially if you are coming from a paddle sport which does not use a cranked paddle. As one of the posters mentioned, ZRE will let you choose any custom angle you like. I'm always surprised that we so not discuss this issue more since a change of even a few degrees alters the paddling experience quite a lot, and he stroke technique is changing all the time. Maybe for certain aspects of the sport, eg. sprinting, a blade with no offset would be better."

Some interesting points, although I believe stance would be a major factor in keeping the bow up. I'm also not sure of the physical possibility of getting much of your weight onto the paddle and would be interested to know more. The "crunch" of the full sprint mode is possibly more to do with getting more and larger muscle groups involved in the stroke. I can see some benefit in unweighting the board a small amount with power strokes but not to the detriment of other aspects of stroke efficiency, bearing in mind most of us are more involved most of the time with cruising, surfing and manoeuvering. Hydro-dynamically, I believe that getting over the bow wave is a consequence of changing from a displacement craft to a planing one and requires speed over water that can probably not be achieved by muscle power, otherwise rowers would have planing hulls.

Thanks posters for your comments and discussions. I have been involved in many outdoor pursuits, sailing and paddle sports for over 40 years including canoeing with straight paddles and cranked for marathon races. I still coach outdoor education actively and professionally in Australia. In the paddling world, there is much debate on the efficiency of strokes and blade types. I think the main point of my thread is the difficulty of purchasing anything other than a cranked paddle for SUP especially when considering the questionable advantages for most of the users most of the time.