I recently bought a paddle and they told me twice on Maui that lately everybody was now using smaller blades and not the 650 or 750 cm2 that was usually prefered for waves. In fact the Enduro "Wave" is the biggest one with 750 cm2. It seems that SUPers are preferring now the smaller blades for waves... Is that true? Or it was just a nice story to make me buy the biggest blade they have on the store, the Enduro 525 that was just 575 cm2?
The guy who told me that was a Starboard racer from the Starboard team that owns a store in Maui. He was looking like he knew what he was saying. This is the guy who will be crossing the Bearing sea from Russia to Alaska in the next months.
Also, I been told the same by my friend, the ex Windsurfing World Champion Francisco Goya who is now designing paddles as well by the brand of Quatro. So is it the trend now to go for smaller blades on waves?
BTW, I am 165 lbs and 6'-1".

I certainly prefer a smaller blade. I have both the Werner Nitro and Ke Nalu Wiki. I've always found the larger badges hard on my shoulders. I particularly enjoy the flex in the x-tuf shaft of my Ke Nalu. But the Werner is great also. If your a bigger guy or more powerful paddler a larger blade may suit you. My vote is smaller.

I like the Kialoa Pipes the most for waves.. and you can't get much smaller.. I'm 6'4 and 95kg.

DJ

I prefer a medium size blade for the surf. For example, the Quickblade 100 sq inch. I have the 90 sq inch as well but prefer the 100. I'm 85 kg.

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DavidJohn said..

I like the Kialoa Pipes the most for waves.. and you can't get much smaller.. I'm 6'4 and 95kg.

DJ

What is the area of the Kialoa Pipes?
But apart from personal preferences, is it the tendency to go smaller on blades?

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hgrimberg said..

DavidJohn said..

I like the Kialoa Pipes the most for waves.. and you can't get much smaller.. I'm 6'4 and 95kg.

DJ

What is the area of the Kialoa Pipes?
But apart from personal preferences, is it the tendency to go smaller on blades?

The Pipes is 87sq inches.. I mostly use paddles around the 100 sq inches.

I think there is a tendency to use smaller blades for sure.. IMO.. The only people that tend to use bigger blades is short distance flat water racing and downwind racing where speeds are kept high... For surfing there is less chance of pulling yourself off balance with smaller blades.. they allow you to take quicker strokes.. and smaller blades are not only much lighter overall they also have a much less swing weight that's noticeable when changing sides.

DJ

Horses for courses. Let me take the dissenting view, I'm an outlier at 6'2 & around 125 kg, smaller blades don't do it for me in surf...not enough grunt to overcome lardy inertia and get some quick board speed up. For surf and DW it's Ke Nalu Molokai for me, it's big but not huge.

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DavidJohn said..

hgrimberg said..

DavidJohn said..

I like the Kialoa Pipes the most for waves.. and you can't get much smaller.. I'm 6'4 and 95kg.

DJ

What is the area of the Kialoa Pipes?
But apart from personal preferences, is it the tendency to go smaller on blades?

The Pipes is 87sq inches.. I mostly use paddles around the 100 sq inches.

I think there is a tendency to use smaller blades for sure.. IMO.. The only people that tend to use bigger blades is short distance flat water racing and downwind racing where speeds are kept high... For surfing there is less chance of pulling yourself off balance with smaller blades.. they allow you to take quicker strokes.. and smaller blades are not only much lighter overall they also have a much less swing weight that's noticeable when changing sides.

DJ

Well, if the pipe is 87 sqin, that is 560 sqcm which is usually considered a big blade. If you check on the Enduro models from Starboard, the biggest for waves is the 650 sqcm, then you have the 550 sqcm, then 525, 475 and so on. But you are on the bigger blades side...
BTW, where did you hear that there was also a tendency to go for smaller blades?

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hgrimberg said..



Well, if the pipe is 87 sqin, that is 560 sqcm which is usually considered a big blade. If you check on the Enduro models from Starboard, the biggest for waves is the 650 sqcm, then you have the 550 sqcm, then 525, 475 and so on. But you are on the bigger blades side...
BTW, where did you hear that there was also a tendency to go for smaller blades?

I didn't hear anything.. I just gave you my opinion.. and that's from my experience fom the past eight years SUP'ing.. The tendency to go smaller is from what is actually happening out there.. The Pipes is about half the size of a normal paddle from a few years ago.. It's about the smallest paddle that I've ever seen.. Don't know why you would think its concidered a large paddle .. I'm not sure about your calculations.. I noticed Jamie Mitchels QB paddle had a 90 on it so I'm guessing that's 90 sq inches.. Stu (humancartoon) is a big guy and there's no right or wrong answers here.. Just different peoples opinions.. The trend is for most people is to use smaller blades but there are some that still prefere large blades.. and that's fine

DJ

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DavidJohn said..

hgrimberg said..



Well, if the pipe is 87 sqin, that is 560 sqcm which is usually considered a big blade. If you check on the Enduro models from Starboard, the biggest for waves is the 650 sqcm, then you have the 550 sqcm, then 525, 475 and so on. But you are on the bigger blades side...
BTW, where did you hear that there was also a tendency to go for smaller blades?

I didn't hear anything.. I just gave you my opinion.. and that's from my experience fom the past eight years SUP'ing.. The tendency to go smaller is from what is actually happening out there.. The Pipes is about half the size of a normal paddle from a few years ago.. It's about the smallest paddle that I've ever seen.. Don't know why you would think its concidered a large paddle .. I'm not sure about your calculations.. I noticed Jamie Mitchels QB paddle had a 90 on it so I'm guessing that's 90 sq inches.. Stu (humancartoon) is a big guy and there's no right or wrong answers here.. Just different peoples opinions.. The trend is for most people is to use smaller blades but there are some that still prefere large blades.. and that's fine

DJ

Yes, 87 sqin is 560 sqcm as you can check on google: www.google.com/search?q=87+sqin+to+sqcm&oq=87+sqin+to+sqcm&aqs=chrome.0.57j0j62.9661j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

If you see on the starboard enduro sizes, 560 is the second biggest one: http://www.star-board-sup.com/2012/product/?q=paddle
Their sizes are: 600, 550, 525, 475 and smaller is 430 sqcm. So if your paddle is 87 sqin thus, 560 sqcm for Starboard paddles is a in between their first and second biggest.

I just got into the Kialoa website and they consider the Pipes as their women model because it is the smaller one... And yes, it is 87 in2 which is 560 cm2. Totally different concepts between Starboard and Kialoa.

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DavidJohn said..

hgrimberg said..



Well, if the pipe is 87 sqin, that is 560 sqcm which is usually considered a big blade. If you check on the Enduro models from Starboard, the biggest for waves is the 650 sqcm, then you have the 550 sqcm, then 525, 475 and so on. But you are on the bigger blades side...
BTW, where did you hear that there was also a tendency to go for smaller blades?

I didn't hear anything.. I just gave you my opinion.. and that's from my experience fom the past eight years SUP'ing.. The tendency to go smaller is from what is actually happening out there.. The Pipes is about half the size of a normal paddle from a few years ago.. It's about the smallest paddle that I've ever seen.. Don't know why you would think its concidered a large paddle .. I'm not sure about your calculations.. I noticed Jamie Mitchels QB paddle had a 90 on it so I'm guessing that's 90 sq inches.. Stu (humancartoon) is a big guy and there's no right or wrong answers here.. Just different peoples opinions.. The trend is for most people is to use smaller blades but there are some that still prefere large blades.. and that's fine

DJ

Yeah I was a bit confused too
Pipes are tiny. I have one here that we only use for surfing.

I'm about 75k and 9'10". I use a 600cm blade. It's a "medium" size blade in my experience. I also like it's teardrop shape as opposed to a more square edge. I feel it drags less if my paddle is on the inside and close to the faster moving water. Shape is what I like over size but wouldn't think I'd like a paddle over 600cm. "IMHO" of course.

I agree with Chucko. My surfing paddle is smaller than 600cm but I really like the rounded shape vs a square end. Flat water I do like a more flat shape and bigger surface area.

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hgrimberg said..

Well, if the pipe is 87 sqin, that is 560 sqcm which is usually considered a big blade....

Yes, 87 sqin is 560 sqcm as you can check on google: www.google.com/search?q=87+sqin+to+sqcm&oq=87+sqin+to+sqcm&aqs=chrome.0.57j0j62.9661j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

If you see on the starboard enduro sizes, 560 is the second biggest one: http://www.star-board-sup.com/2012/product/?q=paddle
Their sizes are: 600, 550, 525, 475 and smaller is 430 sqcm. So if your paddle is 87 sqin thus, 560 sqcm for Starboard paddles is a in between their first and second biggest.

I just got into the Kialoa website and they consider the Pipes as their women model because it is the smaller one... And yes, it is 87 in2 which is 560 cm2. Totally different concepts between Starboard and Kialoa.

Be careful how you interpret that info off the manufacturer's sites. Starboard seem to measure their paddles in a weird way, different to all the others. I've had several Starby paddles (still have an enduro 550 and Mrs has a 475). They feel and paddle somewhat bigger than those internet numbers suggest. In the water my 550 feels like a bigger paddle than my KeNalu Molokai.

Very interesting
Once again great info everybody

I have been using a Wiki with xtuf(s) shaft... it is the smallest Ke Nalu blade

I recently got a larger blade (Miliko) and I am really happy with going bigger.

Right off, I had noticeably greater thrust and I caught waves with fewer strokes and ones I would have missed with a smaller blade.

I am a slow cadence paddler by nature, with a small blade, when I pick up cadence to catch a wave, I lean forward too much and weight the front of my board which plows and digs in.

I find, that when I use the larger blade, I remain more balanced and trim. It is easier for me to quickly build maintain takeoff speed.

That guy is Bart de Zwart. this is his blog: sup-crossing.blogspot.com/
I,m by far not as good or fast as Bart, On the Battle of the coast, a Dutch beachrace, he litteraly put me on a lap on a 5laps race so I don,t doubt his knowledge but its IMO its just an opinion very location based.

Last autumn i did my first Maui trip (1month ) and it really suprissed me predicatble breaks with channels etc etc are and how fast the waves travel overthere. Most of the guys paddle a bit faster rockered and bigger boards. In those conditions a smaller blade and a higher cadence makes sense. The 8.5pro I paddled overthere was called very small and short for my 90kg. Because the waves run longer and are bigger they don,t need to turn very tight and they can catch waves with there longer boards with less effort so a smaller blade with a very stiff overthere, make sense...but that is Maui,
At Maui I paddled most of the time the smallest Starboard paddle and my Kialua ShakaPuu

At home in Europe we have mainly beachbreaks the good guys paddle rather smaller boards and with those combined with the shorter period between the waves and the total lack of channels (at my homespots in the Netherlands we call 5secconds a long period and headhigh a big day :)) a bigger blade (but with a softer saft adding comfort) can help you to wrestle your way faster through the white water of all the waves coming constantly in, as well pulling you on a wave on a sub 8ft sup.
@Home the ShakaPuu is often a bit small for me and I prever my Ke Nalu Maliko with Xtuff-S shaft and my wooden Malama.


For Racing both flatwater on a 14ft and beachraces on a 12.6 I prever my Quickblade Magic90

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supthecreek said..
I have been using a Wiki with xtuf(s) shaft... it is the smallest Ke Nalu blade I recently got a larger blade (Miliko) and I am really happy with going bigger. Right off, I had noticeably greater thrust and I caught waves with fewer strokes and ones I would have missed with a smaller blade. I am a slow cadence paddler by nature, with a small blade, when I pick up cadence to catch a wave, I lean forward too much and weight the front of my board which plows and digs in. I find, that when I use the larger blade, I remain more balanced and trim. It is easier for me to quickly build maintain takeoff speed.

I think that this is a really good point that is made here. I watch what the guys around me are doing to pick up useful information and I found myself adopting a position where I would bend at the knees and bend at the waist with the view to reach as far forward as was possible. Now this theory and its something that a lot of the flat water racer proponents are willing to endorse is all well and good but I think that supthecreek has really nailed it on the head in terms of exposing a real problem for us surfer types who become too forward heavy resulting in the board digging in too much at the front. One of the things that I am starting to experiment with is using a longer handle in order to maintain a more upright position whilst upping my cadence. Good point mate.

Cheers Ozzie

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Jeroensurf said..

That guy is Bart de Zwart. this is his blog: sup-crossing.blogspot.com/
I,m by far not as good or fast as Bart, On the Battle of the coast, a Dutch beachrace, he litteraly put me on a lap on a 5laps race so I don,t doubt his knowledge but its IMO its just an opinion very location based.

Last autumn i did my first Maui trip (1month ) and it really suprissed me predicatble breaks with channels etc etc are and how fast the waves travel overthere. Most of the guys paddle a bit faster rockered and bigger boards. In those conditions a smaller blade and a higher cadence makes sense. The 8.5pro I paddled overthere was called very small and short for my 90kg. Because the waves run longer and are bigger they don,t need to turn very tight and they can catch waves with there longer boards with less effort so a smaller blade with a very stiff overthere, make sense...but that is Maui,
At Maui I paddled most of the time the smallest Starboard paddle and my Kialua ShakaPuu

At home in Europe we have mainly beachbreaks the good guys paddle rather smaller boards and with those combined with the shorter period between the waves and the total lack of channels (at my homespots in the Netherlands we call 5secconds a long period and headhigh a big day :)) a bigger blade (but with a softer saft adding comfort) can help you to wrestle your way faster through the white water of all the waves coming constantly in, as well pulling you on a wave on a sub 8ft sup.
@Home the ShakaPuu is often a bit small for me and I prever my Ke Nalu Maliko with Xtuff-S shaft and my wooden Malama.


For Racing both flatwater on a 14ft and beachraces on a 12.6 I prever my Quickblade Magic90

Yes, it was Bart. He was the one who told me that the tendency among professional SUPers was to use smaller blades nowadays. Was he telling me the truth?

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supthecreek said..

I have been using a Wiki with xtuf(s) shaft... it is the smallest Ke Nalu blade

I recently got a larger blade (Miliko) and I am really happy with going bigger.

Right off, I had noticeably greater thrust and I caught waves with fewer strokes and ones I would have missed with a smaller blade.

I am a slow cadence paddler by nature, with a small blade, when I pick up cadence to catch a wave, I lean forward too much and weight the front of my board which plows and digs in.

I find, that when I use the larger blade, I remain more balanced and trim. It is easier for me to quickly build maintain takeoff speed.

Yeah that's pretty much where it's at for me, my experience with paddle size in surf (and downwind) pretty much echoes Rik's. Only I've gone maliko-wiki-maliko-molokai

I have tried out many paddles, and for the surf I haven't found a paddle I like better than the Kialoa Pipes.
It's quick and easy. Great for late take offs and instant acceleration. I really don't think there is anything negative about it. I weigh 220 pounds and I paddle back just as fast going back out as I did with a big blade. Easier on the shoulders and elbows too.

I agree with Jeroen. I like HUGE blades (bigger than anything available in production main brands), especially with sub-7' SUPs in slow (short-period) waves. The big blade acts like a motor with huge torque at low speed, you can accelerate quickly in one paddle stroke, and provide leverage for turns even at slow speeds. The feeling to be able to modulate the power during a stroke is very cool. The drawback is that they are heavier than smaller blades, and you need to build up your strength progressively to use them.

I guess that when in very fast waves (long periods), and on fast, longer boards where you like to build up speed to match the wave speed to drop early, a smaller blade allowing for a higher cadence can make sense. But I personally think that a high cadence depends on many factors, among which the blade shape (a smoother water entry will allow a faster cadence), blade weight, and angle with the shaft, so I would recommend finding the biggest blade possible for the cadence you want, by choosing a blade with the smoothest water entry, to get the best of both worlds: power and speed.

Well, what some other people say is that a big blade on a small board can make the board turn too much with only one stroke, so that is why some prefer smaller blades on small boards.
I mean, that sounds reasonable when you are catching a wave with a small board, one stroke with a big blade can change the orientation of the board and make you loose the wave...
Apart from the issue of the "turning power" of a paddle in relationship to its area, the period of the wave is also a factor to take into consideration. Longer periods, smaller blades and shorter periods, bigger blades...
So, what's more important when taking the decision on what paddle size to use? The turning power and lightness, or the wave's period?

My paddle is 100 sq/in and at 6'2" & 110kegs I reckon it's too big in waves and hasn't done my shoulders/back any favours. Instead of trying to push all that water, I reckon a smaller blade and faster action would be better. Unfortunately, the paddle is a great paddle & I'm not yet ready to go out & buy another one.

IMO go for the smallest blade that will allow you to get onto waves in the conditions you generally surf.
It's so much nicer flicking a small light blade from side to side whilst riding a wave.
Depending on conditions I either use a Ke Nalu Maliko (95 sq in) or Wiki (84 sq in).
I only go for the Maliko when the surf is bigger or if it's fatter and more grunt is need to get into them.
Most importantly....there are no rules, everyone is different, so demo, demo, demo and find what works for YOU.

For surf I use a QB slim Jim at 100sq inches. Surf 1-6 foot size. I like it and is cut about 6" overhead. Before that had a Starboard Enduro 525 at 81sq inches. Like the QB better. 83kg on 9'5 board.

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yowiesup said..

For surf I use a QB slim Jim at 100sq inches. Surf 1-6 foot size. I like it and is cut about 6" overhead. Before that had a Starboard Enduro 525 at 81sq inches. Like the QB better. 83kg on 9'5 board.

So, did you like the Enduro 525 or was it too small and was not really making you move forward fast enough when entering into the waves?

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hgrimberg said...

yowiesup said..

For surf I use a QB slim Jim at 100sq inches. Surf 1-6 foot size. I like it and is cut about 6" overhead. Before that had a Starboard Enduro 525 at 81sq inches. Like the QB better. 83kg on 9'5 board.

So, did you like the Enduro 525 or was it too small and was not really making you move forward fast enough when entering into the waves?

I learnt with that paddle and liked it at the time it seemed to pull me onto a wave ok as i thought back then. After about 5 months of surfing the blade spontaneously snapped one day as I was stroking for a wave. Suddenly lost all propulsion. I thought it was some sort of a fatigue fracture as I certainly hadnt hit it.Took it back to Cronulla shop and guys really good there (thanks Tommy) and organised for a new one under warranty. I now use that as an adjustable for flatwater trying to find ideal length. I could then see me getting another 100 + paddle with fairly rigid shaft but as I seem to adjust length alot in still water not ready to cut shaft on a more expensive paddle. I got the QB as a dedicated surf paddle after the Enduro snapped and very happy. I feel the blade of the QB more rigid and gives clean entry and exit the flex of the shaft gives a good response when bracing in whitewater. I believe i move faster and get onto waves quicker than I used to but that may also just be improving technique having started SUS in Dec 12.

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hgrimberg said..

Well, what some other people say is that a big blade on a small board can make the board turn too much with only one stroke,

Sorry, but these people do not know what they are talking about.

What makes the board turn is when you paddle in the wrong direction. Look at the explanations in the post: www.gong-galaxy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43629 It put the picture here too:


If your paddle force is along the green arrow, you will not turn, whatever the force you exert. You will even be able to turn towards the paddle.
If you turn, it is because you paddle along the pink arrow, and the amount of force wont change anything. If your car is heading out of the road, the remedy is to turn the wheel, not use a smaller motor.

The choice between big blade or small blade should be based on the kind of "motor" you want: big torque at low speed or high in the revs?

I'll just add one more thing to this thread and that is shaft flex. My racing blade has a big blade and a 90% carbon shaft. It is extremely stiff and I love it for flat water. My surf paddle has a wooden blade and probably only a medium size and the shaft is probably only 50% carbon it just feels nicer in the surf, like I have more feel oh and it's heaps easier on the shoulders

Got what I reckon is a big blade - A Gong Mix - does the job nicely.........not sure I would go back to a smaller blade.

Only downside with a big blade is they tire the shoulders more.....and can pull you off direction more when paddling really hard for a wave....just my findings. BUt maybe I need to learn the technique that Coolas is talking about.....but I'm not a real short SUP...8ft 6.