Hi, this is my first post but it seems like there's a lot of experience here and maybe I can avoid making an expensive mistake.

I feel like I need a slightly smaller board than my starboard pocket rocket 8'5" (130 litres, 30inches). But I've bought smaller twice now and then discovered I don't use them because they feel just a bit too small. My most recent attempt at a change down is a Gong 7'11 Karmen (28 inches wide, 110ish litres). I can surf this fine (bit harder to catch waves but ok) but I'm noticeably less stable paddling around and find it harder to get in the right position in the break if there's other people. And I don't tend to use it if the waves are big, or if it's choppy. Basically in most circumstances I end up opting for the bigger Starboard.

Before that I bought a naish that was super short, (can't remember the exact model now) but had a similar problem.

I guess my question is whether it's worth trying something like the Gong Karmen 8'4 (30in wide and 120l). It's always felt like this would be too close to the starboard, but perhaps it would work as a single board solution, rather than having two boards.

I'm 80 kg by the way, and have been sup surfing to a decent level for ten years plus, albeit it a few injuries have affected my balance in recent years. I also have a long windsurfing background, which brings me to second question. In windsurfing I wouldn't hesitate to get the 'pro' version of a wave board, even though I'm not a pro. In fact I'm probably a similar distance away from 'pro' level in both sports - so should I be looking at the sup pro ranges, which I've so far disregarded - maybe I've had this wrong. I'm lucky enough to have relocated to north Spain so get to surf some pretty nice and uncrowded waves, often on the chunky/intimidating size. (But sometimes crowded too naturally).

Any thoughts? Would I notice the change on downsizing from a 130l to a 120 litre with otherwise similar dimensions?

Am I right to avoid the pro sup models as too extreme for someone who definitely isn't a pro?

Thanks

It sounds like you already have a decent 2 board quiver, karmen for "performance" conditions if its glassy and starboard for all around. The starboard does sound a little big but does it feel big too big in the surf, not turny enough?

I would consider something similar length but 29 wide and thinner. A lot of people like the pro model sups in bigger sizes which aren't really for pros at that size. I would also seriously consider a thinner narrower performance longboard sup as your all arounder since you seem to value mobility. If you can already ride the karmen at 28 you should be fine at that width on a 9' longboard. I bet you would notice a lot more real world speed and turning on a board like that.

Longboard wouldn't fit in the van as well! But I like the other idea for a bigger of the performance models. There's an 8'1 by 29 1/4 and 120 l going alley pro. Maybe that could work.

Do most here have a quiver of surfing sups, or just one board for all conditions?

For the Gong SUP boards:

"FSP pro" refers to the construction, not the shape.
Shapes between the "FSP Pro" and FSP 2x" are identical, there is only one layer of glass fiber that is replaced by a layer of carbon fiber.
Thus the "Pro" in this case means a more dynamic, "springy" board: the glass fibers acts more as a "shock absorber" than carbon, useful in chop.

2x means that the two "bread" layers of the sandwich (around the middle "ham" PVC) are both glass, as opposed to the Pro which has the outer one in carbon.

Also there is also a weight difference, e.g. for the Karmen 8'4" 120L, 7.7kg for the Pro vs 8.1kg for the 2x.
And the glass layers are a bit more resistant to impacts (e.g. on rocks), but the PVC layer under the carbon being waterproof, even if the carbon version dings a bit more easily, it is not dramatic.

This said, there is only one shape which is a "Pro" one, and it shows as it is only available in the Pro construction: The Alley. As its shape aims for performance at the expense of stability, carbon was logical.

This said, for your case:

- The Karmen "feels" unstable as it has a low primary stability. It is actually stable as it has a good secondary stability. What this means is that it will roll easily for the first degrees of angle, but then will stabilize. This allows for an efficient rail-to-rail with low latency, even though the board maintains a good paddling stability once you get used to it. But with injuries you may want to not take too small a size and keep some safety margin.

- The Alley is a technical shape, in that it obeys swiftly to rider inputs, it enhances performance, but also the mistakes. You can botch a turn is you misplace your feet or don't push on your legs with the good timing... or if chop is messing your ride. This is still a production board, so it is not extreme, it is still an easy board compared to real pro custom boards, but this means I would advise trying to oversize them by taking a bigger model if you do not have the technical level to e.g. "pump" your turns: you will gain some stability, but the shape still needs to be driven aggressively to work well. The Alley tries to not "get in the way" of the rider. Its volume is concentrated at the center to keep the nose & tail thin and add nimbleness, but it means the "sweet spot" to paddle on it is noticeably smaller than the on the Karmen.

- The Karmen, on the other hand, is a shape designed to work even if over or under sized, and with some "autopilot" capabilities, the board will naturally try to find the best curves in turns, even with chop. It is also stabler by its wider nose and tail and volume distribution spread out on the whole board. The Karmen tries to help the rider. A good solution for a one board quiver.

So my advice would be to just take a 8'4" Karmen. The 7'11" was a bit too small for what I guess your progression level and injuries, and the Alley would be counter-productive. It will still be a very different board from the pocket rocket, which has a much wider nose (stabler but less lively).

PS: I would disagree with slsurf on the longboard comment: a longboard shape can be harder to ride efficiently, especially if you need to adapt to fickle waves (beachbreaks) or have injuries reducing your mobility and quick displacements on the board.

Thank you for a very comprehensive reply! It's super helpful. I hadn't realised you were a Gong ambassador, it's very impressive what they have done with the brand and clearly you're doing a good job ambassador-ising!

I didn't quite mean 'pro' as you explained it. I meant pro level gear (from any brand) compared to the 'punter' level, if you get what I mean. But maybe this is me coming from a very strong windsurfing background where there's a clear distinction between these two ranges, that almost every brand has, and where almost no one who is fully competent at wave sailing would use anything other than the pro range. What I'm trying to say is, in windsurfing I know which ranges apply to me (I'm a 'punter', but I'd buy from the pro ranges because my level is easily good enough that I'd appreciate the difference, even though I'm far from a pro). But in SUP, I'm less sure.

(Side note, I used to test windsurfing boards as a job, so I suppose it's natural I understand the market better than in sup, and maybe this is just me)

Anyway, your explanation helped a lot all the same, as I hadn't appreciated quite what the differences were in the gong construction methods.

Quick question, in your role as ambassador,do you know if/when the Karmen 8'4 will be back in stock? From both replies, and my other research I suspect this would be a pretty good option for me. But I'm also a bit curious on the 8'1 Alley, which has the big advantage of being in stock.

Decisions decisions...

Select to expand quote

gdnumber2 said..
I didn't quite mean 'pro' as you explained it. I meant pro level gear

Yes, I took the time to explain because Gong is the exception here, normally "Pro" refers to the shape, I guess Gong should have been more explicit by calling their construction carbon or glass... but they have an habit of being a bit too inventive for their own good in naming products :-)

My role as an ambassador is to help people enjoy SUPing, whatever the gear. The reasoning is that, because Gong sells a lot of gear, statistically, the more people SUP, the more some will end up buying Gong gear at some point in their life. And my role is also to know the Gong models so that I can help people make sense of the offerings, or clear misconceptions. But I am not expected to blindly push buying Gong over other brands.

However, I have no more "commercial" info than you about when the Karmen would be back in stock (or if/when new models are to be announced) . Based on my past experience however, "mainstream" models (Karmen, Mob, NFA) tend to be restocked quite fast (less than a month), whereas "niche' ones (such as the Perv, The Sherpa, the prone paddleboards, ...) can be out of stock for many months. You may have more info in explaining your dilemma (Alley now or Karmen later?) to the Gong team via the chat on the web site.To be frank, I would have said that the Alley 8'1" would have been OK for you (at 80kg you are in the intended range as stated on its web page) if you did not have injuries. But I think you should play it safe, it is no fun to struggle.

Thanks colas, really helpful. ??

The question marks were meant to be a thumbs up!

The 8'0 Smik hipster is worth a look. I had a pocket rocket when starting and designs have evolved a bit since then. The 8'0 hipster keeps that same kind of shape but better manoeuvrability and still a lot of stability and float at 8'0.
I've got an 8'0 and it's big for me, but it still jams