Hi,
Sorry for the long intro...

Ever since enjoying my first SUP experience at Cocoa Beach during my last holiday, I've been wanting to do it again.
Compared to regular surfing, which I tried unsuccessfully some 15 yrs earlier, the learning curve with SUP is much less steep.
Since I also wanted to re-enter windsurfing again, I'm looking for a board that can do both. And I want to design and make it myself (I built 2 windsurfboards using vacuum technique in the ealy 90's).
I know there are wind sup's from most manufacturers but it alway seems a compromise of having either a good planing board for windsurfing or a good board for supping.
From what I understand, this has to do with rocker.

So I went looking for more information about rocker lines,... and came to the conclusion that there isn't alot of information about it.
All I really know basically is that because of the bigger tail rocker a sup gets propulsion from waves and this tail rocker prevents the same board to plane well using a sail.
Some solutions like windsurfing rocker with steptail (Exocet, Kona, RRD) look nice, but seem to emphasize windsurfing more than SUP. AHD Sealion and RRD Wassup look nice too, but I didn't find any rocker info...

Then, I found out about Simmons style sup's and how they behave differently in regard to speed and planing, but still are good to SUP. Some even have a planing section at the back.
Also I read that they don't use as much tail rocker and have hard tail rails, all being things that work well for windsurfing.
So has anyone tried to sail a Simmons style SUP? It should be best of both worlds, no?

I'd like to design one, 8'6" (250-260cm), +/- 150l volume as light wind, waveboard, or no wind SUP board. Spot would be North Sea (Belgium); mostly short and choppy swell.
Still have following questions:

- Do I miss something? Why hasn't anybody come up with this, or has there? Or will it simply not work and still be a compromise?
- What rocker values does a Simmons style SUP board have? Simmons history says almost no tail rocker, but based on pics I see, most seem to have 2" or more... I only find vague relative comments like: less tail rocker, more scoop, etc. but never absolute values.
- How would the wide tail of a Simmons affect windsurfing? It seems to work well enough for surfing. AHD Sealion also has wide fishtail...

Any input is welcome.

Marsbel
I like your concept. I also have a windsurfing background and have been building surf/windsurf/wave ski boards in some form since 1968. If you were in windsurfing in the early 90's you will remember the "no nose" design movement. The Simmons outline resembles the "no nose" in some respects...as you say much flatter rocker profile for windsurfing. One board I built back in that time period was "free bagged" and I made the one time mistake of having my stands too close together when I pulled the vacuum. This in turn increased the tail and nose rocker an additional 1-1/2". I had that board...an 8'-4"...in 30 mph winds and could hardly get it to plane...totally ruined the performance. I get the impression that you are already aware of not going too far with the tail rocker if you want a planning windsurf board.

It appears "one" of the reasons the Simmons works with minimal rocker is because it is so short...the shorter the board the less nose kick you can get away with. 8'-6" is a bit longer than most of the Simmons inspired boards that are being developed by those advanced riders on the Stand Up Zone Forum. I often wonder though if they are getting into too small of boards...I know I kept pushing my windsurf boards down in size till my sailing suffered by trying to go out on too small a board for the conditions. Unbelievable when the conditions are right, but conditions in my part of the world (Florida East Coast) seldom cooperate.

I also noticed that some of the pictures of the newer short SUP look very similar bottom shape to my Island Wave ski. Deep single concave.

What I have read the tail rocker on some of the Simmons inspired SUPS are in the 2" 3" range. Depending on the total rocker profile that could be pushing the limits on what could plane.

It would be nice if someone had some documented trial and error evidence on windsurf wave boards to find that tipping point where the tail rocker is loose enough for good wave performance while still giving a reasonable low wind planing ability. Also as you know, volume is a performance killer on a windsurf (or any other kind) wave board.
On second thought....I have an older 8'-8" windsurf wave board that teeters very close to that tail rocker magic point..I will try to measure it later today for reference.

Unless you weight/size dictates needing 150 litters of volume you might want to thin out the board a little.

I look forward to see how this evolves...It sounds like something I would consider building myself if it worked well both as a windsurfer and SUP. All the windsurf SUP's I have seen have all been long board shapes...which has no appeal to me. Your premise of a short wide SUP/windsurfer seems very viable.

I will say I tried to use a 7'-10" windsurf wave board (that was awesome in high wind conditions as a windsurfer in the waves) and surf it as a prone surf board a couple of times in head high +... and it was a total dog...way too stiff without the windsurf rig to power it around.

Perhaps have a look at the rocker line of one of these for guidance...
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Wave-sailing/Black-Box-on-the-Limestone-Coast/

Hi,
Thanks for your replies.
The Black Box looks nice, but at 87l not exactly what I'm looking for. It's also a dedicated windsurfboard. No SUP. Can't find any data on the rocker line either. But the bottom shape reflects what I had in mind (mono concave > double concave > V at tail)

rghdc: Thanks for your reflections. Yep. I do remember the no-nose boards. I had a few. Great change from what had been available before. Then I got into work, family and things. Now I come back and wow, everything just got wider and shorter; who could've imagined a 1m wide 2m30 formula board with sword sized fins in '94 ???

I'm trying to get some more knowledge on hydrodynamics. Trying to find the right rocker, rail shapes etc. No middle fin, but a quad setup, 2 fins as far to the back and sides as possible.
In the latest Planchemag test on waveboards, the most extreme tail rocker is 19mm (3/4") most are under 10mm, some boards even got none.

I'd be interested in the rocker values of your old waveboard.

Volume wise 150l would be the maximum, I could do with less. I'd shoot for somewhere between 130l and 150l.
Since I don't live close to the sea (2 hrs drive) I can't justify multiple boards/rigs. I'm looking for the best compromise in 1 board that I can sail AND paddle from 0 to 15 kts (or even more).
Shaping a board yourself is always a gamble, if your not a fulltime pro. Still, I'd like to maximize the chance of success by combining as much knowledge/experience as possible.

Marsbel
I measured my board and the rocker is only 1-3/8" (35 mm) at the tail.... but that is only one factor...the board is only 22.5 inches (572mm)wide and the tail is a rounded pin... with that said...I don't know if we could draw any parallels to a Sims outline from it at all. It rides really well as a windsurfer... with the feel that it pushed the tail rocker just to the brink without losing the ability to be coaxed up on a plane with reasonable effort...a sweet spot for sure.
With a wide tailed Sims plan shape things would change radically As the tail width increases, logic might lead you towards more tail rocker. I have found even a 1/4" (6mm) can be make it or break it...so give it a lot of thought. As I see it the design directive is to maximum surfing ability on the wave as a reasonably stable SUP, while not crossing the threshold of pulling your arms out of the socket when trying to get it planing as a windsurfer.

Do you have access to any low wind Windsurf/wave boards that have enough volume to SUP in small surf to get a feel for what might work?
As one of my online friends that is into riding/building windsurfers & wave skis would say "you need to do some R&D which stands for Rip Off and Duplicate"....LOL The problem this time is your heading into new territory and trail blazers don't have that luxury.

It most likely will take multiple boards to dial it in, which is pretty much standard procedure for a undertaking like this, amateur and pro alike. You could always build it with a thin tail and go a little towards too much rocker...try it and shim out the tail with wedges made out of Divinicell to tweak it to perfection. Or take the opposite approach and glass the wedges on from the get go and take it down an 1/8" at a time till you find your sweet spot. There is little chance of not having to do some trial and error testing...if you go into it knowing the first board is your experimental platform it will take a lot of pressure off....and experimenting is what makes it interesting.
The payoff could be well worth the effort.

Marsbel... interesting idea... there is a lot of shape inf on the "Stand Up Zone" reguarding SimSUPs
I believe there are some pictures of nose and tail rocker measurements on one of 3 threads:
just go to search and enter sims or simmons or Hype... since January there has been a LOT of discussion about SimSUPs
There are a few shapers that are very good and willing to discuss shapes & technique

Good luck with the project...

Hi,
I've read some threads on SUZ. Didn't see one with measurements yet. Or I missed it. There was a long thread but it had been censored of some interesting posts...
Also, lately, I tried to register 4 times there, with different emails addresses, even contacted the admin, but no success.

rghdc: that's alot of tail rocker for a sailboard. How do you measure rocker? I recall that there are different ways of measuring for surf/SUP boards and windsurfboards.
I like the idea with the divinicell. Remember the Mistral Challenge Flex?

I guess I'll make the first board as cheap as possible and try to finetune it. Just glass on foam, no sandwich.
The French magazine Planchemag publishes the rocker values in their tests. I'll start from there and try to come up with a design.

Marsbel
Yes its a real pain getting registered on the Zone...It took me at least a half a dozen tries, e-mails to the administrator etc. Not very user friendly sign up system. Does seem quite effective at keeping out spam though.

To measure the rocker I set the board bottom down on a flat surface and let it find it's natural balance. Then measured from base to bottom at tail at its highest point. It was popular for a while to have the last 32" dead flat on some of the slalom boards... could not measure tail rocker on them the way I did my wave board.

If you have a preferred method such as straight edge on the bottom I can re-measure it.

I can share my experience. I bought one of the first sealion, for windsurfing strapless, and then discovered SUPing. I also had the smallest step tail Kona.

I think the sealion has nailed the proper tail rocker that will allow you to really plane and have a blast with a sail, while still being somewhat SUPable. I feels a little stiff with a paddle, I guess due to not only the tail rocker, but also:
- the deep fish prevent you to put your foot as back as would be efficient for cranking turns. Something more squarish may be better
- high rail volume in the tail
- big deep (8") fins, just 2 US boxes, limiting a lot tweaking performance by the fins

Real SUP board will have more rocker (my 8' Simmons have ~ 2" tail rocker), so, although being quite fast, they can still be nimble and responsive with a paddle. I could definitely turn tight on the sealion, but I had to force the board to do it. But a SUP with normal tail rocker will feel slow and sluggish with a sail, giving the feeling that you have weeds on your fins (I used my Drops Vulcan 8'11" SUP with a sail a couple times). Once you take off on a wave, everything is fine however, but if you like planing, you will be frustrated.

You can see side-by-side pictures of my yellow Sealion and a similarly sized pure SUP, a red Gong nanogene at7'7"http://photos.colaz.net/index.php?dir=Nanogene%2F&startpic=0 . As you can see, the eye comparisons are misleading, the global amount of rocker you can see on the picture do not reflect the behavior on the water. The red nanogene felt like a real fish underfoot, while the yellow sealion felt stiff.

I would suggest you try the newest Sealion, the 8'3". Apparently the tail volume has been thinned out, keeping the planing ability, but being more nimble on a wave. But I didnt try it.

PS: the Kona step tail is really interesting powered up with a sail. but I dont think it will work at the slower speeds of SUPing

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rghdc said..


To measure the rocker I set the board bottom down on a flat surface and let it find it's natural balance. Then measured from base to bottom at tail at its highest point. It was popular for a while to have the last 32" dead flat on some of the slalom boards... could not measure tail rocker on them the way I did my wave board.

If you have a preferred method such as straight edge on the bottom I can re-measure it.

Hi,
OK. I think thats the surfboard way to measure rocker. Planchemag measures with a straightedge on the flat part and the takes scoop measurements at 100cm, 120cm, 150 cm and 200cm from tail. If there is tail rocker they call it 'kick'. And they report the cm's from tail where the flat part starts and ends.

I don't know if this is a standard way of measuring for windsurfboards though. For surfboards or SUP boards, this probably wouldn't work, because they don't have the flat part.
But as you said, the other specs from your waveboard are different also, so maybe it's comparing apples and oranges.

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colas said..

I can share my experience.
...
You can see side-by-side pictures of my yellow Sealion and a similarly sized pure SUP, a red Gong nanogene at7'7"http://photos.colaz.net/index.php?dir=Nanogene%2F&startpic=0 . As you can see, the eye comparisons are misleading, the global amount of rocker you can see on the picture do not reflect the behavior on the water. The red nanogene felt like a real fish underfoot, while the yellow sealion felt stiff.

I would suggest you try the newest Sealion, the 8'3". Apparently the tail volume has been thinned out, keeping the planing ability, but being more nimble on a wave. But I didnt try it.

Colas, thanks for you input.
The Sealion is very interesting. I'd have to check out if there are any demo's around here.
The picture is very surprising. It seems the Sealion has more rocker than the red board... It could be optical illusion.
Is there any change you could measure the rocker of the Sealion? Simmons outline and fin options with Sealion rocker could be a good starting point.

Marsbel

I did find some gross measurements on the L41 Original SIMS SUP site. If you click through the pictures after clicking on the (S3) version it has the nose and tail with a ruler shown for reference. Like Colas said about his board having 2" of tale rocker...the L41 S3 also has 2" of tail rocker in the photo...and 5" of nose rocker...go here and take a look for yourself... www.original-simsup.com/p/original-simsup-phase-3-simmy-3.html
Kirk has some very cool bottom contours you might also want to check out.

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marsbel said..
The Sealion is very interesting. I'd have to check out if there are any demo's around here.
The picture is very surprising. It seems the Sealion has more rocker than the red board... It could be optical illusion.
Is there any change you could measure the rocker of the Sealion? Simmons outline and fin options with Sealion rocker could be a good starting point.

I don't own the Sealion anymore. I would have kept it if I still windsurfed, but I only SUP nowadays, and my Van is already full of SUPs (yes, I have many :-). But you should really try one, if you want to experience strapless windsurfing they are kind of the "standard" in this domain. They can really plane, blasting around on them in 18knots is so much fun...

On the rocker, well, I guess the global amount of rocker may not be significant alone, maybe the various curves are quite important too? Note that you could compare also the Sealion to the Nahskwell 7'8" fish, as these are 2 similar boards made by the same shaper, one for Windsurfing + SUP, the other for SUP + WIndurfing (it has a pure SUP shape, but still with a mast insert). Comparing them could be interesting to see what are the differences in rocker the shaper though important.

Had a long weekend and got to try the RRD Wassup 8.5 convertible. I only got to windsurf it on flatwater, but it behaves good when planing and jibing. It's very stable and with the optional center fin you can even use it to teach kids.
Couldn't measure rocker either, but it looks more like a windsurf rocker. I wonder how well it SUP's. It is for sale and I might buy it, but I still like to try a Sealion.
I suppose I'll have to go to France or the Netherlands to try one out. Can't find a AHD dealer in Belgium.

Those L41 Simsup's sure look nice. Thanks for pointing out the pictures with the tape measure.
It seems dedicated Simmons style SUP's use 2"+ of tail rocker. But alot of other variables have to be taken into account.
I'm working on something in Boardcad, but based on the comments here and what I found on the net, It looks like I'm not quite there yet...

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marsbel said..


In the latest Planchemag test on waveboards, the most extreme tail rocker is 19mm (3/4") most are under 10mm, some boards even got none.

Beware of people measuring rocker who are not shapers. They are clueless about the proper way to measure it and disseminate bogus numbers. Those boards do not have 3/4" rocker.

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colas said..

marsbel said..but I still like to try a Sealion.

I suppose I'll have to go to France or the Netherlands to try one out.

Try to ask on the Sealion forum, that's perhaps your best bet: http://www.sealion.ahd-boards.com/forum/index.php

I can try that. Have to polish up my French writing again.
Thanks.

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NC Surfer said..
Beware of people measuring rocker who are not shapers. They are clueless about the proper way to measure it and disseminate bogus numbers. Those boards do not have 3/4" rocker.

Thanks for pointing that out. It is difficult to relate those measurements to others I find. so it is pretty useless.
Better build my own rocker stick and measure myself.

Any progress? Just picked up a 8"x 32" x 8' block of foam yesterday....real tempted to do something along the lines of Corran's "twisted retro" asymmetrical plan shape....still debating, but his reasoning seems sound on the concept...the rocker would have to be geared more towards windsurfing to work as a hybrid through.

I have been trying to watch as much video on SUP wave riding as I can find... especially with SIMS style boards...Can't say I am overly impressed at what I have found. With a few notable exceptions of SUP surfing, such as ), sup surfing looks slow and "draggy" in comparison to prone surfing...when many SIMS shapes exhibits speed down the line they looks "tight" and the rider is not able to do any quick directional change with fluid motion....this should not be...if anything you would think a smaller, lower volume board (in less than overhead conditions) should be the slower in comparison to a wider, higher volume SUP...there is a lot of room for exploration and improvement.

My conclusion is that some SIMS variations seem to give up too much maneuverability for straight line speed... which runs counter to what I just said above, but there must be a way of achieving both...I observed in many of the videos a need for either more rail curve (plan shape) or more tail rocker....or more likely a little more of both. These boards seem to stick at the initiating point of a cut back, throwing the rider off balance and causing a tripping effect. The plan shape being too parallel in the last 24" to 32" inches and very angular corners at the tail are prime suspects. Also in many videos the waves are gentle breaking, mushy waves...even if they have some size....that 5" nose rocker/2" tail rocker may work on glassy point breaks but not going to work on my low tide/suck up the sand/shore break with onshore winds of the US Florida East Coast.

Maybe my expectations are too high, but to me a re-entry isn't an SUP with its tail stalling in the trough while the nose points up the face. I want to keep pushing towards an SUP doing short board (stand up) moves like seen in the above video. Hoping that the SIMS style board might make moves like these a little more accessible to us mere mortals in less than ideal conditions. That is my target...others may have different goals...everyone needs to find their own ...it's all good.

So the way I see it, for my application... I need more Rocker....the balance is the tricky part...Flatter is better for paddling ease/stability and speed.
Too much additional nose rocker and it pushes water=slower paddling, may take away a miniscule amount of stability.... requires a slightly later take off.
Too much tail rocker and forget about ever using it as a planing windsurfer... go too far and there is the risk that its overall speed in sup mode could drop off to the point that the magic of the wide tail speed generation could be cancelled out.

Since I am not that interested in whether my board is true to the original SIMS concept or not, this is all sending me in the direction that Corran has been addressing with his "retro" and especially his new twisted "retro" designs. Not affiliated with him, don't own/never owned any of his products, but I like the design path he is taking.

Is that a PSH?

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marsbel said..
I can try that. Have to polish up my French writing again.
Thanks.

No need to, the Sealion forum have english sections

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rghdc said..
My conclusion is that some SIMS variations seem to give up too much maneuverability for straight line speed...

I would like to point 2 things:

[1] the fun of the Simmons, (and simsups, wombat, eggs,...) shapes are the glide and speed you enjoy on the board itself, you should experience it rather than relying on videos... Trying to guess the fun factor of things by the outside looks is not very accurate... Noseriding for insance... and anyways, who would have though SUPing was fun: most non-SUPers when first looking at SUP videos/pics (me included) think "what's the point? just paddling around is so lame...".

[2] take into account the board length. A 8'6" is still a 8'6", it wont turn like a 5'11". Also, take into account the relative sizes of rider and boards: if the rider is huge, like in your vid, this means he rides a small board for his size...
If you want 6'-shortboard moves on a SUP, my opinion is that you must get down to business, and learn to ride a 6' SUP.

All good points Colas...however I have ridden surf boards that turn better than their longer length would suggest and shorter boards that are way stiffer than one would imagine. From another photo of the guy in the video standing next to his board (assuming he's about 6' tall) I would judge the board to be 8'-4" to 8'-6" long and around 28"-29"wide. For that length I would say he is throwing it around really well...To me this shows when the rocker line is perfected a little additional length is not as critical.

I have not seen any SIMS style board that comes anywhere close to that turning performance. I put more value in video as still photo's are too deceptive. Freeze action of crazy moves end in a crash and burn more often than not. Many people can initiate a radical move but few can follow through ith constancy. This guy makes it look stupid easy :)

As I write this I am starting to wonder if the SIMS style board is right for me personally? Is it here to stay or just a cult classic that will be eclipsed by the next "flavor of the week"? Is it going to take me where I wan't to go on a wave or hold me back? Some of the glitter and marketing shine is starting to wear off as I step back for a reality check...what I am reading and what I am seeing are not lining up...each person must find their own path...this discussion is helping me clarify mine...Colas I am very happy you have found your stoke in super short SUPs but I think my stoke is in a different direction...at least for now...I will never say never :)

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rghdc said..
As I write this I am starting to wonder if the SIMS style board is right for me personally? Is it here to stay or just a cult classic that will be eclipsed by the next "flavor of the week"?

You are right, we are all different... and even have different tastes on different days and moods. This is why I think, like in prone surfing, most board designs will be here to stay in the long term, even if some get more to the limelight at some point. There is no "better" design in general, except for a specific goal (specific spot, contest rules, ...), but designs that offer a different experience will always stay. This is what I meant: you should really try the design, not rely too much on reviews, except maybe from people having the reviewed the boards you have been able to test yourself, to "calibrate" their reviews.

The good point of fads however, means there will be more on the water, and that you should be able to locate the design you are curious about close to you and try it, or buy and resell.

Marsbel any progress on your idea....I have shaped and glassed an 8'-5" X 32"...waiting for fin boxes (Pro Box)/fins and deck pad to come in....before it hits the water....haven't decided yet if I'm going to put a mast track in....not sure if pro boxes can handle major jumping...

Colas...if you miss the cream of the crop from the Zone, check out SUPzero...several of the best contributors run off the Zone are reuniting over there....

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rghdc said..
I have not seen any SIMS style board that comes anywhere close to that turning performance. I put more value in video as still photo's are too deceptive. Freeze action of crazy moves end in a crash and burn more often than not. Many people can initiate a radical move but few can follow through ith constancy. This guy makes it look stupid easy :)

Watching videos of the JP boards in action is what led me to pick one up. Videos of Keahi de Arboitz showed what the boards were capable of and then video I saw of some average guys surfing in Sweden or Holland sealed the deal after I saw what they were doing on the boards in mush burger surf.

Take a look at the JP Surf Wide Body boards. Those are probably a happy medium between a performance board and the Simsup type boards.

I agree lots of Sup surfing looks slow and all the videos of I've seen of the Simsup type boards didn't quite do it for me. Sup surfing is far more fun to do than watch.